Question An alternate physics engine?

Linguofreak

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This isn't about OVP per se, but related, as it deals with the Physics Engine/Graphics client split.

Time and again, people will request features such as non-metric units or Linux support that Martin has made clear aren't on his priority list or in his skill set. Might it be possible for the community to write physics engines that will work with the same graphics clients (OGLAclient, etc.), and implement the Orbiter API, but be based on totally different code (since the code for the standard core is closed source)?

This would especially make sense for Linux, as there exists a graphics client that runs on Linux (OGLAclient), but the Orbiter core is heavily dependent on Microsoft libraries and doesn't work well under Wine. It would be nice to have a core (even a simple and underfeatured one) that would run natively on Linux and interface with OGLAclient.

Some thoughts on such alternate engines:

1. The biggest use I can see for such engines, as implied above, is cross-platform support for Orbiter. They need not, however, be limited to this, and could also be used for implementing features that Martin does not plan to implement.
2. They need not be Orbiter engines, per se. I could imagine that someone might wish to use an OVP graphics client for another sim or game.
3. They can use whatever source model the designers wish, but I would recommend they be open source, but not GPL. Martin may (or may not) at some point wish to use code from such an engine in the primary Orbiter core, but to be able to do so, he must first be free to use that code (open source), and second, because his own engine is closed source, he must be able to use that code without open sourcing his engine (and thus alternate clients should not be GPL, since GPL would carry that obligation).
 

Artlav

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I did and keep doing something like that, called Spaceway:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/planeter-gal.php?lng=eng

Basically, it's Orbiter stretched across a whole universe, with procedurally generated content.

Practically, it's been 7 years in development and is far from anything really playable. The graphics is the same OGLAClient at full potential, but the physics are rather simple.

The project is GPL, theoretically (http://s-way.sourceforge.net , haven't been updated in ages), but it's never been developed so.

You can try a no-warranties-if-it-works snapshot here:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/sway/sway-091023-win32_bin.zip (3.7 Mb)
Some input documentation is in keys.txt, the basic controls are like Orbiter.
 

Linguofreak

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I did and keep doing something like that, called Spaceway:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/planeter-gal.php?lng=eng

Basically, it's Orbiter stretched across a whole universe, with procedurally generated content.

Practically, it's been 7 years in development and is far from anything really playable. The graphics is the same OGLAClient at full potential, but the physics are rather simple.

The project is GPL, theoretically (http://s-way.sourceforge.net , haven't been updated in ages), but it's never been developed so.

You can try a no-warranties-if-it-works snapshot here:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/sway/sway-091023-win32_bin.zip (3.7 Mb)
Some input documentation is in keys.txt, the basic controls are like Orbiter.

Do you have a Linux 64 bit binary? (I'm running Ubuntu 9.04 64 bit). If so I might try it out, thought I suppose I could also try it in Wine. I am looking for something, though, that can be run with an arbitrary OVP client in place of the Orbiter core.

Here's a bit of a roadmap for such a project:

1. The first goal for an alternate core would be to get a working Windows program that can talk to OVP clients, implement the very centralmost parts of Orbiter (Basic Newtonian physics, standard MFD's, etc.) and run *.cfg addons just as Orbiter would run them.

2. The second goal would be a cross-platform engine with features similar to the Windows engine described in step one, as well as more comprehensive addon and API support in the Windows version (probably one of the biggest sub-goals at this stage would be to get TransX working).

3. At this stage we would want a Windows engine with support for most features of Martin's engine, as well as projects to add features not included in Martin's engine. The cross platform engine should be in a state comparable to the Windows engine in step 2.

4. Bring the cross platform engine up to par with the Windows engine.
 

Artlav

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you have NO idea how long I've been looking for this!
Don't get your hopes up, it's basically unplayable.

Do you have a Linux 64 bit binary? (I'm running Ubuntu 9.04 64 bit). If so I might try it out, thought I suppose I could also try it in Wine.
Not at the moment. It can't be compiled as a native 64bit binary, i guess (never tried), but it always runned as 32bit one on every 64bit system i tried.

I am looking for something, though, that can be run with an arbitrary OVP client in place of the Orbiter core.
Compile or link-time? It's next to impossible to make a core that will load unmodified Orbiter add-ons of any kind on open tools.

probably one of the biggest sub-goals at this stage would be to get TransX working
TransX is mostly ported in SpaceWay, FreeOrbit and Lagrange are working fully.
Do you define it as being working largely unchanged, or being working after some adaptations?

4. Bring the cross platform engine up to par with the Windows engine.
So, basically, reimplement Orbiter as an open-source project?
That's the worst kind of project imaginable - playing chase and catch. While you're working on replication someone else's work, be it Windows, Orbiter, .NET, etc, the original keeps moving at the cutting edge. Without an incredible resource investment it will be impossible to even catch up.
 

n72.75

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Maybe sometime down the road(years), the physics engine could be separated from the core in the same way that the graphics was separated from Orbiter_NG, this would allow for different physics engines to be implemented. then the core would only have to preform memory operations and scheduling; it would also be portable enough to be adapted to Linux/BSD or any other operating system.


Just throwing the idea out there. . .
 

the.punk

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Don't get your hopes up, it's basically unplayable.

I don't think so. For me it's playable. I only get an orulex terminated error when leaving the star system..but nice.
 

Andy44

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Dr. S started a thread about a year ago in which he was pondering creating a relativity-based sim of some sort.
 

n72.75

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Dr. S started a thread about a year ago in which he was pondering creating a relativity-based sim of some sort.

I remember something about that, but I can't find it, can you post a link.
 

Artlav

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Do you have a Linux 64 bit binary?
I do now:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/sway/sway-091207-linux32_bin.tar.gz
It's a more recent, and apparently, a more broken build.

Maybe sometime down the road(years), the physics engine could be separated from the core in the same way that the graphics was separated from Orbiter_NG, this would allow for different physics engines to be implemented
What will be left in the core then? It will just fall off and be forgotten, being easily re-implemented.

Spaceway isn't playable on my laptop, which is a shame because it looks pretty amazing.
All the usual OGLAClient rules apply - try tuning down the graphic settings (F11).
Or, is it just unplayable for some other reason?
 

jedidia

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Maybe sometime down the road(years), the physics engine could be separated from the core in the same way that the graphics was separated from Orbiter_NG, this would allow for different physics engines to be implemented.
As far as I know it, the physics engine IS the core, and the main feature of orbiter. The whole sepparation is taking place majorly to give the community the ability to keep the graphics engine up to date, since Martin doesn't want to make a rewrite of the graphics engine once every few years. Also, it will give him more time to fiddle the physics, which is what he likes to do. So "sepperating the physics enginge from the core" does not make much sense, the physics engine is pretty much what orbiter is all about.
 

the.punk

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Artlav: I know that you maybe don't want to give support but have you an idea why I have an orulex terminating error when leaving the solar system?
 

jarmonik

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This isn't about OVP per se, but related, as it deals with the Physics Engine/Graphics client split.

Time and again, people will request features such as non-metric units or Linux support that Martin has made clear aren't on his priority list or in his skill set. Might it be possible for the community to write physics engines that will work with the same graphics clients (OGLAclient, etc.), and implement the Orbiter API, but be based on totally different code (since the code for the standard core is closed source)?

This would especially make sense for Linux, as there exists a graphics client that runs on Linux (OGLAclient), but the Orbiter core is heavily dependent on Microsoft libraries and doesn't work well under Wine. It would be nice to have a core (even a simple and underfeatured one) that would run natively on Linux and interface with OGLAclient.......

You make me feel sick. :sick:
 

Linguofreak

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I do now:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/sway/sway-091207-linux32_bin.tar.gz
It's a more recent, and apparently, a more broken build.

What will be left in the core then? It will just fall off and be forgotten, being easily re-implemented.

All the usual OGLAClient rules apply - try tuning down the graphic settings (F11).
Or, is it just unplayable for some other reason?

Lack of a joystick here makes it rather unplayable for me, as does the lack of documentation, and the fact that the F11 key doesn't seem to actually do anything (I seem to recall the same problem with one of your other projects. I was supposed to be able to use a certain key to do something and got no response from that key. I forget which project, which function, or which key was involved, but I think it was a function key).

EDIT: Found it: Solar System generator project: E key was supposed to open the editor, but did not. That was on a different machine

http://orbiter-forum.com/showpost.php?p=117128&postcount=28

Another edit: Do you have a Linux version of the Solar System generator project?
 
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Artlav

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Artlav: I know that you maybe don't want to give support but have you an idea why I have an orulex terminating error when leaving the solar system?
I honestly have no idea - that build is rather old, and the sources i have now is somewhat different.
Then again, it's nowhere near complete or debugged.


F11 key doesn't seem to actually do anything
...
Solar System generator project
...
Not surprising, since the Solar System generator and Spaceway is one and the same, with different parts on/off.
The problem is the key mapping - glut there and winapi here, not synced well.
 

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I updated my drivers and it's working okay now, though in space the sky is red and artifacted, and several MFDs don't work. This looks to have amazing potential though, and I intend to try it on my decent gaming computer when I get a chance.
 

mjessick

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> What will be left in the core then? It will just fall off and be forgotten, being easily re-implemented.

I wouldn't describe that task as "Easily". There is a large amount of work embodied in the "core", and a huge amount of creativity over many iterations in the API and MFDs.
 
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