News Ethiopian 737 crashed on way to Kenya, 157 people on-board

[tl8]

Singapore and Australia Aviation Safety groups have grounded the 737s. Low impact though

 

[Urwumpe]

The British CAA has also grounded the five British 737-8 MAX now.

Since they are (still) closely cooperating with the European counterpart EASA, its very likely that it could get grounded in whole Europe as well soon.

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Boeing-737-MAX-Aircraft/

 

[dbeachy1]

The British CAA has also grounded the five British 737-8 MAX now.

The British CAA has also "issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace." Personally, I'm glad to see some nations erring on the side of caution.

EDIT:
It turns out the ban applies to all 737 MAX aircraft, not just the 737-8 MAX models:

The UK's ban on Boeing 737 MAX aircraft applies to the entire series, not only to 8s, a spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority told CNN Tuesday.

 

[APDAF]

So how will this effect the sales of the 737 MAX family?
Has any airline canceled their orders?

 

[Wolf]

So how will this effect the sales of the 737 MAX family?
Has any airline canceled their orders?

I think it is a bit early for that. I think the big issue now is to find out exactly what happened and why (and if they were able to retrieve the FDR and CVR they will mot likely find out); the second issue is the negative impact of such events on public image and stock market, I woyld guess.

 

[Urwumpe]

So how will this effect the sales of the 737 MAX family?
Has any airline canceled their orders?

Not yet. I also doubt they will. Usually they cancel orders because of changing market conditions, not just safety issues. If customers would refuse flying 737 MAX, this could happen, but that is doubtful, I expect the issues with this plane will be fixed in 2019, and customers won't care which specific 737 model they fly.

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------

So, Germany now did the same and closed their airspace for all 737 MAX 8 aircraft by decree of the German department of transportation.

 

[Marijn]

When one sheep is over the dam, the rest will follow.

Tour operator TUI in The Netherlands has grounded their fleet as well.

I wonder if any preliminary information from the flight data recorders has been revealed.

 

[Urwumpe]

When one sheep is over the dam, the rest will follow.

Is that a dutch idiom translated? Paints a pretty Friesian image in my head...

 

[Marijn]

Is that a dutch idiom translated? Paints a pretty Friesian image in my head...

It's a common Dutch saying. Friesland is old land and I do associate dams with new reclaimed land.. So I think it tyicial Dutch and not particularly Frisian.

 

[Urwumpe]

It's a common Dutch saying. Friesland is old land and I do associate dams with new reclaimed land.. So I think it tyicial Dutch and not particularly Frisian.

Well, my mental image is something like that:

 

[Marijn]

Well, my mental image is something like that

That's a nice pic. Very recognizable. Actually, that is a dike. A dike runs parallel to a body of water such as river or sea. It's a barrier controlling the flow of water. A dam runs across a body of water to form a passage. A dike has water on one side, a dam has water on both sides.

Sheep are reluctant to cross a dam into the 'unknown'. But as soon as one has done so, the rest will soon follow.

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Now Brussel has decided to close the airspace of the complete EU for the Boeing 737 MAX 8. I wonder who decides about these matters and what aviation authorities were involved in the decision making. This situation looks like an emo-panic mess to me.

 

[Urwumpe]

Now Brussel has decided to close the airspace of the complete EU for the Boeing 737 MAX 8. I wonder who decides about these matters and what aviation authorities were involved in the decision making. This situation looks like an emo-panic mess to me.

Well, from the professional side, the authority is the EASA, which is really responsible for the final word there:


https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom...suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

 

[IronRain]

That's a nice pic. Very recognizable. Actually, that is a dike. A dike runs parallel to a body of water such as river or sea. It's a barrier controlling the flow of water. A dam runs across a body of water to form a passage. A dike has water on one side, a dam has water on both sides.

Sheep are reluctant to cross a dam into the 'unknown'. But as soon as one has done so, the rest will soon follow.

Never knew this was the reason for the saying :lol:


Does anyone know if this happened before? Closing the airspace for a specific plane (especially this new)?

 

[Urwumpe]

Does anyone know if this happened before? Closing the airspace for a specific plane (especially this new)?

Actually, this happened quite recently: The 787 was also banned for a short time, after a series of battery fires.

 

[Marijn]

Well, from the professional side, the authority is the EASA, which is really responsible for the final word there

But some countries led by England, Germany and France already grounded the planes earlier today. One after the other. Before EASA if I am not mistaken. That makes me wonder who is running this show and has the final - final word.

This situation, in which the EU and the USA do not take the same action regarding the airworthiness of a plane, is pretty weird.

 

[Urwumpe]

But some countries led by England, Germany and France already grounded the planes earlier today. One after the other. Before EASA if I am not mistaken. That makes me wonder who is running this show and has the final - final word.

This situation, in which the EU and the USA do not take the same action regarding the airworthiness of a plane, is pretty weird.

Remember how the EU works. The EASA is independent of the national agencies and reports to the EU Parliament. Also the EASA is not Brussels. It is not even in Brussels - it is in Cologne. The EASA essentially just coordinates the efforts of the national agencies.



And again, its not too weird. First of all Boeing is a US company and the US government has caught a Trump. Second, and more important, we have different doctrines regarding safety in the US and the EU. In the EU, preventing possible damages has a higher priority. so, it makes perfectly sense for the EU to ground the aircraft until the software patch is installed. And is not too trumpy for the USA to allow the aircraft to fly as long as there is no scientific information that the aircraft is unsafe.

 

[Marijn]

Also the EASA is not Brussels. It is not even in Brussels - it is in Cologne.

That's my point. Today, we had ministers of individual countries announcing they had grounded the plane. Then the EU, in Brussel, announced that the EU airspace was closed (thus including the airspaces of EU countries who remained silent today). And now you say EASA has the final word. The mental image I am having with this is a lot like a chaotic chicken ren.

If there is indeed no scientific information that the aircraft is unsafe as you say. And Boeing says they have complete confidence in the 737 MAX’s safety and that there is no reason for new instructions to airlines. Then I think it's 'weird' that a handful of different authorities all grounded the 737 in some kind of snow-ball effect, right after the other. That's my opinion. The whole thing doesn't look professional to me. Such decisions should be the result of careful decision making by qualified decision makers. Not by politicians being put under pressure by populistic voices. The fact that EASA follows them without questions just frightens me.

In the EU, preventing possible damages has a higher priority.

That's quite a statement. In aviation, 'damages' includes lives of course. I doubt whether aviation in the EU is safer than in the US. Is there any data available supporting this? I can't really imagine that.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 PM ----------

Two Boeings of TUI enroute to The Netherlands had to land elsewhere because the airspace closed at 20:00hrs. One landed in Bulgaria, one diverted to Gran Canaria.

This makes me quite angry. What a freakshow is this turning into. Denying these planes to finish their planned routes adds nothing to safety. It just causes inconvience for people, extra costs for the airlines and most hypocritical: It exposes the passengers and crew to the risks of an extra take-off and landing.

Don't let these planes take-off then! Planes in-flight should not be subject to the latest dwellings of politicians influenced by the latest messages on Twitter. This makes no sense at all.

 

[Topper]

Let's see from the cold point of statistic...
330 Maschines in service of this type * 165 passangers per flight (assumed) * 30 day per Month * 5 Month * 4 flights per day per airplane (assumed) ~
35.000.000 passengers carried, 346 died (In the last five month)
"Statistic" chance to die on a special flight in this plane (only by the given and assumed data):~ 1/100.000
If you fly every day in this plane, you will statistically reach an age of 273 years (If you leave aside other causes of death; So it's just 100.000 / 365 ... On my calculation, I don't know if my statistic method is corect...)

I don't know if this is very exact and if this is a "real risk" or not, but I prefere to don't fly in such a plane at the moment... So it seems like feelings affects us more than "statistics"
My thoughts are with the victims and their families of course!

 

[Urwumpe]

Don't let these planes take-off then! Planes in-flight should not be subject to the latest dwellings of politicians influenced by the latest messages on Twitter. This makes no sense at all.

Its not Twitter. Its an official order. By a professional air safety agency. Not some politicians (though the German ministry of transportation is not really represented by the smarted guy in the cabinet)



Also, aborting flights inside the EU is not part of such an order. The two aircraft came from outside the EU, that is why they had to land as soon as they entered EU airspace. Sounds maybe hard, but where do you want to put the limit otherwise? As you had been able to see pretty often in the past years: Even just waiting 8 hours executing an order can result in deaths.

 

[dbeachy1]

Just posted by Dallas News (emphasis added):

Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw

The News found at least five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October plane crash in Indonesia that killed 189.

The disclosures found by The News reference problems during Boeing 737 Max 8 flights with an autopilot system, and they all occurred while trying to gain altitude during takeoff — many mentioned the plane turning nose down suddenly. While records show these flights occurred during October and November, the information about which airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.

Records show that a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from previous 737 models.

The captain's complaint was logged after the FAA released an emergency airworthiness directive about the Boeing 737 Max 8 in response to the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia.

An FAA spokesman said the reports found by The News were filed directly to NASA, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes.

...

U.S. regulators are mandating that Boeing upgrade the plane's software by April but have so far declined to ground the planes. China, Australia and the European Union have grounded the 737 Max 8, leaving the U.S. and Canada as the only two countries flying a substantial number of the aircraft.

...

After the Lion Air crash, the FAA issued an airworthiness directive that said: "This condition, if not addressed, could cause the flight crew to have difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain."

Full article is here.

So the 737 MAX is still flying today in the US and Canada despite still having the same autopilot flaw that caused the Lion Air crash in October in 2018 and receiving complaints of similar autopilot incidents from five pilots since then. Even if the Ethiopian crash turns out to be unrelated, keeping the MAX flying all this time since the Lion Air crash with the same flaw that caused the Lion Air crash astounds me. I guess money and stock price is more important than lives.

EDIT:
And then there's this:

Ethiopian Airlines CEO tells CNN: Pilot had 'flight control problems'

New York (CNN Business)The pilot of the downed Ethiopian Airlines flight had "flight control problems" shortly before the fatal crash, according to the company's chief executive.

A recorded conversation with air traffic control detailed the final moments of the flight, CEO Tewolde GebreMariam told CNN's Richard Quest on Tuesday.
"He was having difficulties with the flight control of the airplane, so he asked to return back to base," GebreMariam said. He added that the pilot was granted permission to return to ground. That happened at the same time the flight disappeared from radar.

Full CNN article is here.