Fastest Possible Interstellar Ship Construction and Launch

[Hlynkacg]

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/55954main_rxj1242_comp_250.jpg
This is why, assuming the earth survives even as a boiling cauldron due
to tidal disrupion and rotation momentum transfer, it would be stuck
in orbit around this black hole, receiving X-ray Gamma Rays enough
to disrupt your innards. Esp even the earth cools and frezes the
atmosphere would freeze, even less protection to any suvivors.

If mars were to be cast out (I doubt it) and cast out alone you could
certainly try to settle there, but since you have no way to
steer a planet let alone Slow it when a suitable suns is closeby,
I don't see a future there, esp at 1/3 G.

Unforutunately Jupiters Moons are not quite large enough
to have suitable gravity. And it's a ways off and expensive Delta
Vee wise to maneuver and land on the moons. On top of which
there have no aero braking to be had.

So?

None of this adresses the simple fact that both Gravity and Radiation are emminently solvable problems and that having a ready supply of power and raw materials is vastly superior to not having a ready supply.

The "Blasted Earth" you describe is just as habitable if not more so than any other celestial body we currently know of other than "Non-blasted Earth".

Unless you've already got a pre-made habitable planet already picked out and can reach it within a generation. Burrowing underground or building O'Niel Colonies in the mid to outer Solar System is going to be vastly safer and more practical than attempting an interstellar journey.

 

[Sorpenderin]

many of these ideas have probebly been suggested before. but anyway here are my ideas for how to handle this situation. some of these technologys havent been invented yet,such as suspended animation,but i hope i stay as near future as possible.

the booster

the first problem is to launch the ship on its way. im thinking well need a super orion,wich will probebly take around 8 years to constuct

the living area

the living quarters will be made of anything we can find,like rocket stages, space shuttles and airplanes
it will contain cryogeninic suspended animation or if were talking more near term,hybernation

the destanation
im asuming alpha centuari,epsilon eridani,and gliese 581


this probebly doesent fit into this thread,but its about escaping the soalar system within 10 years so i thougt id better post it

 

[Hlynkacg]

Why bother?

 

[Admiral_Ritt]

The construction of the carrier ship to the snowball
requires some reconsideration. Since the Pusher plate has to be
built, and will be the longest and most difficult operation. the extra
time allows for certain adjustments to be made.

Super tankers hulls should be used rather (it would be easier to
add features to it and make it spacewordy) than trying to
move things around on cruiseliners.

for a count of 5 supertankers, at each end an arc segment will
be constructed consisting of several levels (3) living quaters (2) Live cargo.
In terms of living space, for temporary human presecence, 73,000 SqFt.




The Pusher plate will have to be on the order of 230m Dia.Area 0f 16,000Sqm
Since this pusher plate will after use in transit, be emplaced on the Ice Ball
to serve as its plate, it will have to be an overengineered doozy.

I estimate the weight at 1,200,000 metric tons, (plate + spaceship)

As a comparison, Orion Spacecraft at 10,000 tons required 350 pulsed
detonations to achieve orbit. these were pretty small bombs.
Source: http://www.astronautix.com/articles/probirth.htm

so the effort required for this mission is 120 times more mass.


Looks to me that most of the processed Uranium in place In US nuke
arsenal, will be needed. Additional fuel will need to be proceesed to
to make more pulse bombs, as pushing the Ball of Ice to high speeds
is the goal. (and eventual braking)

P.S. You can always not read this thread if the dicussion annoys you.

 

[Hlynkacg]

P.S. You can always not read this thread if the dicussion annoys you.

I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to accomplish here.

Most of your proposals make little-to-no sense when viewed within the context of the scenario you've proposed.

If your primary objective is to undertake an interstellar journey in a time-scale not measured in centuries using known technologies than you should really be looking into The BIS's Deadalus and Icarus projects and work from there.

If your primary objective is to ensure the Human Race's survival of a black hole near-miss, than you really need to start answering the questions raised by myself and others.

Which is it?

 

[Admiral_Ritt]

I am putting an idea to solve a problem.
My solution is not the only solution (it may not work at all)
But If you can't buy the premise that.

1) you cannot stay on/above Earth and survive.

2) because of unknown physiological effects other Planets/moons do not
have suitable gravity to emigrate there.

3) the reason you need to go to another star system, is that once the
black hole passes through the solar system, it will also scatter any
OTHER,planets, asteroids,ice balls, etc.

4) Time is Very Short

then pass on this thread,

If you can accept the restrictions above then I invite more ideas.

And the question of why even try?

If you are able to survive the journey. Arriving at new solar system you
will have 2 potential things that will raise the odds of survival, SOLAR POWER.
and an ordered solar system where you can HARVERST what you need in terms of materials.
you do not need some twin of earth, to survive.

 

[garyw]

2) because of unknown physiological effects other Planets/moons do not
have suitable gravity to emigrate there.

But there are known physiological effects from living in a ice ball for thousands of years and going to another solar system?

3) the reason you need to go to another star system, is that once the
black hole passes through the solar system, it will also scatter any
OTHER,planets, asteroids,ice balls, etc.

A single black hole is going to scatter an entire solar system?

If you are able to survive the journey. Arriving at new solar system you
will have 2 potential things that will raise the odds of survival, SOLAR POWER.
and an ordered solar system where you can HARVERST what you need in terms of materials.
you do not need some twin of earth, to survive.

Correct, you don't need some twin hence why a lot of people are talking about staying put because you have two things 1. SOLAR POWER and 2. A KNOWN ENVIRONMENT. A single black hole transiting the solar system would cause disruption but it wouldn't scatter everything. O'Neil colonies are a more valid option than welding a super tanker to a metal plate then setting off nukes to get into space.

It doesn't matter what you add to a super tanker it will never be space worthy...... well, unless you add a space craft around it.

Actually, thinking about it, it should be fairly straight forward to simulate the effect of a black hole transiting the solar system thanks to this -> http://www.orbitsimulator.com/gravity/articles/what.html

I might set it up tomorrow night if I have a bit of time and post the results of what happens once the black hole has transited.

 

[Face]

But If you can't buy the premise that.
<snip>
then pass on this thread,

If you can accept the restrictions above then I invite more ideas.

This is an open forum. As long as the discussion follows the rules, every idea is welcome.

If you have troubles with posts, please report them to O-F staff instead of discussing it in-thread.

regards,
Face

 

[Hlynkacg]

I am putting an idea to solve a problem.
My solution is not the only solution (it may not work at all)
But If you can't buy the premise that.

1) you cannot stay on/above Earth and survive.

2) because of unknown physiological effects other Planets/moons do not
have suitable gravity to emigrate there.

3) the reason you need to go to another star system, is that once the
black hole passes through the solar system, it will also scatter any
OTHER,planets, asteroids,ice balls, etc.

4) Time is Very Short

then pass on this thread,

If you can accept the restrictions above then I invite more ideas.

1) Accepted.

2) Mars and many of the outer moons have sufficient gravity to be "close enough" and even if we reject them as candidates there is still the option of 1g O'Niel cylinders or 2001-style wheel stations as I've already proposed. Both of which are in many ways preferable to being confined to an Iceball for the unknown number of generations it would take to reach another solar system that may or may not have a habital world for us to colonise.

3) A black hole of sufficient mass to scatter the outer gas giants would also prevent any vessel from escaping in the process (unless you have a plan to attain relativistic velocity in the time frame alotted your iceball-turned-noah's-ark will simply be dragged into orbit around it). If the Sun and outer planets are not destroyed than why wouldn't you stay to harvest them for resources/enegy?

4) Accepted, but irrelevent when viewed in context of 2 or 3.

As stated the restrictions have been accepted and alternatives proposed.

The ball is in your court Admiral.

 

[garyw]

Ok, a very quick play with gravitysim shows that a black hole ORBITING at 100AU sized at 10KM with 108 solar masses places havoc with the gas giants. It preturbs all their orbits and sent jupiter into a crazy loop.

The inner planets totally ignored it and carried on as normal. Interesting little experiment. I need to play with the figures and see if I can get the black hole to transit. However one of 108 solar masses passing 100 AU away wouldn't do much it seems.

Purple line is jupiter, green uranus and the orange one at the edge is an orbiting black hole. You can see that the inner planets are not touched and keep orbiting quite happily.

 

[Loru]

A single black hole is going to scatter an entire solar system?

Yeah. Around 12-14 years ago I read description of stellar mass black hole passing through Solar System. It was based on some simulations and results were very disturbing: 2 outer planets thrown out into space, Saturn and Jupiter eaten, Mars bombarded by asteroids from the belt, Earth torn apart by tidal forces etc.

I even wrote short story (few pages) describing that kind of destruction (but nearby star system, not Sol) and in the end black hole "embarked on a journey for the next prey. Star was yellow and surrounded by few specks of light. First was brown, second was beige, third was pale blue..."

I may try to translate whole.

 

[garyw]

2 outer planets thrown out into space, Saturn and Jupiter eaten, Mars bombarded by asteroids from the belt, Earth torn apart by tidal forces etc.

This might be what we are seeing here. Certainly the outer gas giants orbits are massively affected. I'll have to look at the timescales that gravity sim uses. The one thing it doesn't have are the asteroids and cetainly both Jupiter and Uranuses orbits are so affected that I can easily see them sending asteroids from the belt hurtling towards Earth.

The second thing it doesn't show is the effect on Earth. Certainly Earths orbit isn't touched but it's hard to know if anything else is touched from the black hole or subsequent events.

 

[Urwumpe]

Can you put the black hole into a solar escape orbit or at least highly elliptic orbit? This would be more realistic.

 

[Loru]

well - in book I've read black hole was passing through solar system, not orbiting at 100AU

 

[garyw]

Can you put the black hole into a solar escape orbit or at least highly elliptic orbit? This would be more realistic.

Yup, That was going to be a later sim. I just did it in the same plane as the solar system for a quick n dirty experiment.

well - in book I've read black hole was passing through solar system, not orbiting at 100AU

Again, it was the quickest way to add a black hole, I'll amend the object and see what I can come up with thats a lot more realistic.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, I think that, unless it is a direct hit (< 10 AU perihelion), its effects on the solar system would very small since it passes the solar system only for a short time.

 

[Hlynkacg]

Ok, a very quick play with gravitysim shows that a black hole ORBITING at 100AU sized at 10KM with 108 solar masses places havoc with the gas giants. It preturbs all their orbits and sent jupiter into a crazy loop.

The inner planets totally ignored it and carried on as normal. Interesting little experiment. I need to play with the figures and see if I can get the black hole to transit. However one of 108 solar masses passing 100 AU away wouldn't do much it seems.

Purple line is jupiter, green uranus and the orange one at the edge is an orbiting black hole. You can see that the inner planets are not touched and keep orbiting quite happily.

Interesting, I didn't think to try that scenario.

I ran some sims using the initialy stated Stellar-Mass Black Hole (200 Solar-masses) on a hyperbolic arc scenario and found that barring a collision/near miss (CPA < 1au) the chances of actually ejecting Jupiter or Saturn was quite small.

Orbital eccentricities were all sorts of messed-up but that's something that could be worked with/around.

 

[APDAF]

Earth torn apart by tidal forces

If that is the case then we might as well hit the big red button and euthanise our selves then.

 

[Linguofreak]

Again, it was the quickest way to add a black hole, I'll amend the object and see what I can come up with thats a lot more realistic.

I already did my own experiment with gravitysim a while back, and found that a 10 solar mass hole with an initial sun-relative velocity of 100 km/s and 0.3 AU point of closest approach will scatter the solar system entirely.

In another experiment, I set up some test objects line-abreast at 0.1 AU intervals and sent them past a 10 solar hole with a closure velocity of 100 km/s. A 0.9 AU distance corresponded to a ~90 degree scattering angle in the reference frame of the black hole (this would correspond to ending up on a course ~45 degrees from the hole's in the reference frame where the test particles are initially stationary and the hole is moving).

---------- Post added at 01:57 ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 ----------

I am putting an idea to solve a problem.
My solution is not the only solution (it may not work at all)
But If you can't buy the premise that.

1) you cannot stay on/above Earth and survive.

This depends entirely on the parameters of the encounter and how easily you believe we could survive on Earth without the Sun.

For a 10 solar mass hole passing within 1 AU of the sun, the entire solar system will almost certainly be scattered, but Earth is unlikely to be absorbed by the black hole or otherwise destroyed.

2) because of unknown physiological effects other Planets/moons do not
have suitable gravity to emigrate there.

Under normal circumstances that is certainly the case (plus they all lack breathable, more-or-less room temperature atmospheres).

In a survival-or-extinction type scenario, if they aren't scattered, or if some factor makes them more habitable in deep space than Earth would be, then it's almost certainly worthwhile to at least *try*. The mentioned physiological effects would certainly create long-term health issues, but I think they could be lived with if the alternative was extinction.

3) the reason you need to go to another star system, is that once the
black hole passes through the solar system, it will also scatter any
OTHER,planets, asteroids,ice balls, etc.

This is pretty much a given. Even the sun will be scattered.

4) Time is Very Short

I can accept short warning. But 10 years warning now and 10 years warning 1000 years from now are two different things. 10 years warning now would simply be a death sentence. Depending on what technological progress we make, 10 years warning 1000 years from now might be doable.

 

[Hlynkacg]

I already did my own experiment with gravitysim a while back, and found that a 10 solar mass hole with an initial sun-relative velocity of 100 km/s and 0.3 AU point of closest approach will scatter the solar system entirely.

In another experiment, I set up some test objects line-abreast at 0.1 AU intervals and sent them past a 10 solar hole with a closure velocity of 100 km/s. A 0.9 AU distance corresponded to a ~90 degree scattering angle in the reference frame of the black hole (this would correspond to ending up on a course ~45 degrees from the hole's in the reference frame where the test particles are initially stationary and the hole is moving).

Hmm... was that parallel to the eccliptic or at an angle?

In my scenarios, barring a truly near miss either the Sun and outer gas-giants stayed together or the inner planets stayed together a la Garyw's scenario.

Then again I was also using a much higher encounter messing around with masses and encounter speeds as well.