Forget an elevator, how about a space ramp?

palebluevoice

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Not on the earth, obviously; more like the moon, even more feasibly, Io. Just get a really fast car(I know, cars don't work in space, lets just say it has an oxygen tank, or actually, since acceleration isn't that big of a problem, just use an electric car), and a long track with a tall(very tall) ramp at the end. Now, lets say you were going orbital velocity when you left the ramp...here's where I'm wondering...would you hit the ramp when you come back around(ignore rotation effects)? I've always had difficulty understanding orbits.
 

mojoey

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Not on the earth, obviously; more like the moon, even more feasibly, Io. Just get a really fast car(I know, cars don't work in space, lets just say it has an oxygen tank, or actually, since acceleration isn't that big of a problem, just use an electric car), and a long track with a tall(very tall) ramp at the end. Now, lets say you were going orbital velocity when you left the ramp...here's where I'm wondering...would you hit the ramp when you come back around(ignore rotation effects)? I've always had difficulty understanding orbits.

Not really...here's why.

You would need constant thrust upto orbital height, in order to acheive an orbit, or else you fall right back down. If you were to go fast enough that your touchdown point was all the way around the moon, and back on the ramp, then you would need a big ramp.
 

palebluevoice

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Not really...here's why.

You would need constant thrust upto orbital height, in order to acheive an orbit, or else you fall right back down. If you were to go fast enough that your touchdown point was all the way around the moon, and back on the ramp, then you would need a big ramp.

Hmm? You don't need thrust, you just need to be at a height(well, the higher you are, the slower you can be going for orbit). One of Newton's thought experiments for his theory of gravity was a very tall mountain firing a cannon at what is now called orbital velocity; no upward vector there.

Try to forget the ramp and the car, and just picture a rocket(or DG) flying at a constant angle into orbit; maybe it's 22.532, maybe it's 42.545; I haven't done the math and I don't really know where to start; that would be the same principle behind a ramp. Thinking of this model, I've kind of answered one of my own questions; you would have an upward vector after leaving the ramp, and that, if you were going fast enough, would make you miss the ramp.
 

jedidia

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Hmm? You don't need thrust, you just need to be at a height(well, the higher you are, the slower you can be going for orbit). One of Newton's thought experiments for his theory of gravity was a very tall mountain firing a cannon at what is now called orbital velocity; no upward vector there.

And where, pray, does the horizontal vector come from if not from thrust of some sort? (note, thrust here used as general term for "application of force", not necessarily rocket thrust).

Anyways, keeping strictly in the confines of a thought experiment, yes, you'd hit the ramp again on your next go-round.

questions; you would have an upward vector after leaving the ramp, and that, if you were going fast enough, would make you miss the ramp.

Then the ramp is badly designed. You can't establish (approximately circular) orbit by following a constant angle of ascent, the angle has to reduce over time.

However, I want to emphasise that there is no practical purpose in such a ramp, no matter where you build it.
 

mojoey

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And where, pray, does the horizontal vector come from if not from thrust of some sort? (note, thrust here used as general term for "application of force", not necessarily rocket thrust).

Anyways, keeping strictly in the confines of a thought experiment, yes, you'd hit the ramp again on your next go-round.



Then the ramp is badly designed. You can't establish (approximately circular) orbit by following a constant angle of ascent, the angle has to reduce over time.

However, I want to emphasise that there is no practical purpose in such a ramp, no matter where you build it.

What if the ramp was upside down?

If the ramp went from 90* vertical, to horizontal, the car would be subject to a trajectory similar to a gravity turn.
 

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An upside down ramp would work... but the car would fall :p I think it would work better with a system similar to those upside down rollercoasters, where the load is hanging on a rail. Scale that up, and you could put a cubesat, a satellite, a Deltaglider, whatever there.

Whatever it is, though, it would still hit the ramp on the next orbit (remember that when you make a maneuver, you will pass through the point of the maneuver on your next orbit). So it would still be on a trajectory which could be compared to a suborbital one (as in, it hits something on the planet; it can be whatever orbit if it passes through the ramp). So it would still need a little thrust to correct that.
 

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As with the ski jump ramps used on some aircraft carriers, this would work in theory by translating some forward motion into vertical. Because you are in contsct with the surface until you leave the end of the ramp, you can theoretically use the vehicle's weight to create traction. However, the vehicle will NOT be in a circular orbit, and it WILL strike the ground before a complete revolution. So this theoretical system would require an apoapsis maneuver to complete orbit insertion.

It's impractical, though. Building a wheeled vehicle capable of reaching such speeds is more technically challenging than building a simple LEM-style rocket ship. Also, as the velocity increases and the vehicle approaches orbital speeds, the traction will decrease since it is a function of weight on the road surface, and you will likely see wheel slippage.

Since the vehicle has to have rockets on it to complete the insertion and for orbital maneuvering, why bother with wheels and traction and motor drive trains? A much lighter pure rocket ship makes more sense.
 

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The way I see it, wouldn't the force upwards keep the car on the ramp?
 

Linguofreak

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It's impractical, though. Building a wheeled vehicle capable of reaching such speeds is more technically challenging than building a simple LEM-style rocket ship. Also, as the velocity increases and the vehicle approaches orbital speeds, the traction will decrease since it is a function of weight on the road surface, and you will likely see wheel slippage.

It doesn't need to be a wheeled vehicle. Maglev would work, and since it doesn't rely on ground contact, traction wouldn't be an issue.

Since the vehicle has to have rockets on it to complete the insertion and for orbital maneuvering, why bother with wheels and traction and motor drive trains? A much lighter pure rocket ship makes more sense.

The advantage to maglev (or even to wheels in the ideal case with no nasty obstacles like friction and frictional heating) is that whatever object you're taking off from serves as reaction mass and your delta-V at any point is exactly equal to your forward velocity, which means that you don't have to carry your reaction mass (except for your apoapsis maneuver) and that your energy efficiency is maximized. Also in the case of a "train" configuration (such as maglev) rather than a "car" (such as you might have with an idealized, frictionless, wheeled vehicle), the vehicle can be externally powered, allowing you to get your launch energy from the local power grid instead of having to carry your energy source with you.

On an airless body, I imagine maglev launch would be quite competitive with rocket launch, assuming you could ever get enough of a colony going to justify the infrastructure investment. Of course, the difference from palebluevoice's scheme is that, early-flight terrain clearance permitting, you'd want your launch to be completely in the horizontal.

If Earth were an airless body (and, magically, could still could support human civilization) it's a good bet that we'd have something like that today (both for really fast surface transport and for space launch). However, to get the maglev track above the atmosphere on the real Earth, we'd need something like a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lofstrom_loop"]Lofstrom Loop[/ame], which makes both the technological and the economic requirements much more daunting.
 

Linguofreak

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Thinking of this model, I've kind of answered one of my own questions; you would have an upward vector after leaving the ramp, and that, if you were going fast enough, would make you miss the ramp.

Well, yes, in a way. If the ramp were angled up at 20 or 40 degrees, you wouldn't hit it. Rather, you'd hit the ground a few thousand miles before you hit the ramp, unless you left the ramp going faster than escape velocity.

But in general, unless you hit the ground or another object, or apply thrust, or are on an escape trajectory, if you pass through a point (such as the end of the ramp) on one orbit, you'll pass through it on every orbit after that. And if following your orbit backwards (that is, at any one point on the orbit, going at the same speed in the opposite direction) would cause you to hit a stationary object like the ground, following your orbit forwards will too.
 

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Interesting idea. But all those moving parts just make me think it is going to be a nightmare to maintain and repair when something goes wrong.

Not many moving parts, its just a really nasty magnetic accelerator.

But I personally still prefer the launch loop.

http://launchloop.com/
 

jedidia

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Somehow all these plans to conquer LEO (loops, fountains, elevators, slingatrons etc) remind me of Napoleons musings on how to conquer Britain...

Though it has to be said that by now we do fly over the channel and we have indeed dug a tunnel beneath it, so who knows what the future holds...
 

Andy44

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The OP wasn't talking about a maglev or a linear accelerator, I think he was talking about a wheeled vehicle. Of course electromagnetic launchers have been considered and are probably feasible on the Moon, but they also require rockets to complete the orbit insertion, unless the payload is launched to escape velocity.
 

palebluevoice

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The OP wasn't talking about a maglev or a linear accelerator, I think he was talking about a wheeled vehicle. Of course electromagnetic launchers have been considered and are probably feasible on the Moon, but they also require rockets to complete the orbit insertion, unless the payload is launched to escape velocity.

True, but the point of the post was ramps, not the vehicle that goes on the ramp.
 

Linguofreak

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but they also require rockets to complete the orbit insertion, unless the payload is launched to escape velocity.

Yes, but both the thrust and delta-V required are much, much lower. You just need a tiny nudge at apoapsis.
 

Mandella

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Already been modeled by Kulch! Here ya go.

[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=620"]Lunar Mass Driver, release 3[/ame]

Of course, you do have to fire a thruster at apoapsis to circularize the orbit, but it sure saves fuel in the long run.
 

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That Slingatron thing looks SCARY!:uhh:

Imagine the forces in there! It would probably shred any living thing to get the velocity it would need. And imagine if something goes wrong!
 
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