How massive the universe really is

garyw

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Really? Somehow, this lot got their knickers into a serious twist when faced with competition. :lol:

So did this lot.

It is genuinely scarey how much hatred comes from a group of people who are supposed to be the very epitome of tolerance and understanding.
 

insanity

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It can now, but in the early stages it was only an assumption, that led to a theory, that turned out to work.
My opinion is, that in case of God, you could follow the same principal. It amazes me, that many people don't take this leap of thought.

First let me offer you a disclosure: I'm a scientist (albeit a political scientist) and as such I've vested a lot of trust in the scientific method's ability to help us contextualize the universe and our place in it.

The first modern scientists were monks as they were the literate and educated thinkers of their time. They operated under clear biases and lacked models and context to explain things like dinosaur fossils and meteorite deposits that began turning up all over. Later, some would even theorize that Native Americans were one of the lost tribes of Israel. Even with their biases and the incorrect inferences they drew from their work, they furthered the human wealth of knowledge by simply recording and documenting what they saw.

As science began to develop away from religion, biases still existed and tons of incorrect extrapolations continued to influence the scientific community. Darwin is a perfect example of one's whose theories biased him (he almost did not even publish Origin of a Species because of the religious grief it caused him). Darwin also could not explain the whole picture of evolution, and most of his suggestions for its mechanics have been explained better by later thinkers. However, Darwin (and others) contributed vast amounts of evidence that this process does happen.

The point is science is by no means objective, and people who claim it as such are severely misguided. It is in many ways a dialetic process, where models are proposed and replaced until we think their is no more explanation possible to offer when we call it a law. Again, it is not perfect, and there could easily be things going on in dimensions we can't understand that make these processes happen- all we can do is create a model that explains what that process is like. On Earth, for example, we know that an object will fall 9.8m/s^2 until it reaches a terminal velocity proportionate to its mass because of drag (this is basic physics and fluid dynamics). We can explain what is going, both on the micro level of an object falling and the macro level force of relative gravity and offer the evidence that explains why it happens. However it could be a giant piece of hyper intelligent pan galactic space pizza that put these functions in motion and we'd never figure that one out.

Lastly- a very quick point: most people don't understand that scientists work to disprove the null hypothesis and only offer the alternative hypothesis as theory. Even if the research disproves the null hypothesis other scientists can offer better theories based either upon the original research or constructing a test that disproves the proposed theory.
 

shamandgg

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The most mind twising thing to me is that doesn't matter which way you look in the Universe, you always see the same distance (spacetime) to "the border" what is actually the Beginning of our Universe.
 

Moonwalker

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The point is science is by no means objective, and people who claim it as such are severely misguided.

That science is by no means objective is not entirely true on science on the whole. But I guess you're referring to the more complex stuff regarding the universe and astrophysical hypotheses?

Just a simple example why science can be objective indeed: the observation and mathematical definition of gravity indeed is quite objective. Based on that and lots of other observations and definitions, we are able to fly to the Moon and beyond, unmanned and manned as well. If this is not objective, what's it all about then?
 

insanity

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That science is by no means objective is not entirely true on science on the whole. But I guess you're referring to the more complex stuff regarding the universe and astrophysical hypotheses?

That's not what I mean by objective, what I meant was that science does not hold a licensee to offer an ultimate answer to any question. Science is quite subjective because it exists in limited constructs (i.e. the things we explain scientifically are limited by the mind's ability to understand those things). Gravity is a perfect example of that! We can explain the force, how it governs the universe, and use those explanations to understand things like an apple falling from a tree, but there could well be pan-dimensional forces that we can't really contextualize that make gravity behave the way we think it does (not that I think there is). It is impossible, in my opinion, for science to offer an objective truth because that would imply things were explained to the last degree of uncertainty- which is quite certainly impossible.

In the sense that science attempts to disprove the null hypothesis it is objective because it does (or at least should) allow the evidence to speak for itself eventually creating very good models that accurately help predict and describe phenomena.
 
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sunshine135

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I have a hard time understanding why so many cling to either science or faith. Isn't the Universe large enough for both to exist? ;)

Science discovers and continues to discover the facts about many wondrous things. I support most scientific efforts but, I also support a deep and abiding faith about there being something greater than myself.

Failure to make room for both is ultimately destructive. If you make no room for science, then you make no room for fact and understanding of the observable universe you live in. If you make no room for faith then you make yourself your own God and your morality becomes subjective. What is the worth in any individual? They are only a clump of cells, what true meaning or worth is there in their existence?

I have read many good points here. I have not seen many flames, just passionate debate. I do see some posts, like Ghostrider's, which are only here to insight arguments. The real truth is that I have seen many Christians who were not at all Christian in their actions and deeds towards others, but I have also seen many Atheists cheerfully and smugly provoke Christians into that form of a response.

In short, grow up, and realize that there is enough room for faith and science to coexist. In fact, the majority of people in this world follow just that philosophy.

Kind Regards to the Orbiter Comunity,
 

Moonwalker

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I have a hard time understanding why so many cling to either science or faith.

Because science and faith is two different things ;)

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

That's not what I mean by objective, what I meant was that science does not hold a licensee to offer an ultimate answer to any question. Science is quite subjective because it exists in limited constructs (i.e. the things we explain scientifically are limited by the mind's ability to understand those things).

Of course science does not hold a license to offer an ultimate answer to any question. But faith also does not do so. I'd say that faith is the most subjective thing out of both, which does offer almost no rational explanation.
 

atuhalpa

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Invariably when someone delineates their faith it is indistinguishable from superstition. There is not a single faith I have delved into that has any more credence than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

By the way, my philosophy is that of militant agnosticism: I don't know, and YOU don't know either!:p
 

Andy44

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If you make no room for faith then you make yourself your own God and your morality becomes subjective. What is the worth in any individual? They are only a clump of cells, what true meaning or worth is there in their existence?

Morality, that's a philosophical question. The rational athiest would say that life is better in the long run if you cooperate with others rather than act as if there were no morality. Look to game theory for cooperation vs. defection.

Even though I am not (quite) an athiest, I am not of the opinion that morality is dictated to us by some supreme being. Rather, natural law provides a good starting point for discussing how science can explain the rise of morality among intelligent, sometimes-rational beings. Again, game theory was an attempt to study this, albeit limited in both scope and application.

Let me add that I think it very important to come to a common, rational basis for morality independent of religious beliefs. In this manner people of varying beliefs and backgrounds can peacefully live amongst each other. This is the root of "freedom of religion", which is one of the most beneficial ideas to spring from the Enlightenment.

That part about "making yourself your own god" shows that you are biased in favor of there being a need for a god to exist. The rational athiest would say "why must there be one?";)
 

Urwumpe

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The rational athiest would say "why must there be one?";)

Because cursing "Random quantum fluctuations" is just not the same. :rofl:
 

The 2-Belo

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"Rather than debating the existence or non-existence of God, they have agreed to fight for it. The existence or non-existence to be determined by two falls, two submissions, or a knockout." -- John Cleese, Monty Python's Flying Circus
 
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