How would a war between N.Korea, China and USA be fought?

[MJR]

PrS: Read this one first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army

Judging the reference, it is a pretty good public summary of what sits around there.



Loosing a single one is already pretty bad, if you gained nothing by it. Also the costs for the Vietnam war had been already then pretty extreme for the gains.



Technology does not win battles. Humans do. Apollo landed on the moon with 1960s technology...





You don't. You only say you do, because somebody else you know has experience with the reality of it. But you seem to be a poor listener.




You still do. Books. Before I was in the army, books painted a clinically clean image of war. Even "Nothing new on the western front" does not even slightly depict well, what you experience in your guts, when you are under attack. And if you then remember that every soldier, enlisted and officer, experiences the same emotions and confusions during a battle, you maybe guess how easy it is to underestimate the enemy. The ally of the enemy could be your own army. A small artillery strike could be at the same time overestimated by you, or underestimated. Even if you are wearing more stars than the Pleiades, you are not immune to confusion and poor judgment. Having read your Clausewitz or Sun-Tzu without laughing about the primitive technology at that time is mandatory sometimes.

And now you think, you can predict the future better and say that attacking North Korea would be an easy job, because you have the better gimmicks?

Did you read about the Battle of the Bulge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? Maybe you should, because there can be parallels to North Korea in what awaits you.

I am so touched that you say I am a poor listener. BTW, I do not think you can read because you defeated the whole purpose of the thread. I said, "How do you think the war would be fought?" Not, "Lets degrade the Americans and make them seem like they are nothing compared to other countries." I was wanting how you guys would think their approach on the war would be.

 

[Ghostrider]

I was wanting how you guys would think their approach on the war would be.

My approach would be ricin in Kim Jong Il's champagne. Failing that, airdrop supplies to the civil population of NK in crates with the sign "THE USA HEARTS NK WHEEE!" and Vanessa Hudgens' and Zac Efron's faces on it.

Winning the enemy's heart leads to a fast victory and the safest way is through its stomach.

 

[Urwumpe]

I was wanting how you guys would think their approach on the war would be.

I told you. you should maybe read carefully. :facepalm:

I tell you again, because you should maybe need an extra hint:

NOT AT ALL!

If I don't really need to fight a war in North Korea with the US and South Korean Forces, I wouldn't do it. There is not much to be gained and a lot to be lost. North Korea is a dwarf blown up by dogma into a titan.

NK wouldn't fight to conquer South Korea or defeat the USA. This is impossible. Any NK action would aim at hurting the USA. Even a nuclear strike on South Korea and Japan would make sense to them then. Even more than a nuclear strike on the homeland of the USA. A strike on Guam would be rather symbolic, but cripples the US war machine a lot, while a strike on Los Angeles or San Francisco would make it impossible for the USA to retreat. The main combat strategy of NK would be binding as many forces of the USA as possible and increase the costs of war for the USA so much, that they have to retreat politically from South Korea and let North Korea have a political victory, even if South Korea would then be a nuclear waste land. Currently, they are existing under the Damocles sword of the USA, any change to this would already be a major achievement, regardless how high the price is. Conquering South Korea would only work AFTER the USA are forced to stay out of the game. Japan isn't a threat itself, but its bases are, if the USA can use them. Punishing the allies of the USA is better than punishing the USA themselves. It demoralizes. If fighting with the USA causes more danger than appeasing the DPRK, they might want to stay out. Especially Japan is a weak ally. They would have more too loose from such a war, than they can win.

If North Korea would really attack South Korea, my first priority would be air and sea superiority as US "player". The supply lines from Japan have to be defended at all costs, because even a single ignored NK submarine can cause severe damage today. The air force of North Korea could be easily retained because of the supposed poor training of the pilots, so my resources would be focused on fighting the many many many SAMs. I can't quickly get air superiority over NK, but I can isolate NK from the seas.

Next, I would need an invasion at the north of NK, in violation of the art of war, isolating it from China and Chinese resupply lines. This also forces China to choose sides early and makes many things easier. If they want to have a land resupply route to NK at all costs, they need to attack. If they can accept this invasion as excuse for them not helping their former allies, its ok. Its not exactly wise, because it refuses NK a way to retreat, they can then only capitulate or fight. But the alternatives are worse.

A pure Blitzkrieg tactic would not work on NK, because I would just simply leave a lot of NK troops behind my back and harass my supply lines.

For keeping my allies in the region happy, I need to show that I am dead serious. Not cutting the number of soldiers. Use what you have and use it with brute force. A war against North Korea would need to be successful in disabling all WMDs in days - or be just a small punishment action that weakens the USA more than North Korea. There is no middle way. Any action that will threaten the integrity of North Korea will be a reason to attack the US allies with nuclear weapons.

But the same consideration from the NK Side: A war would be bad. NK needs an enemy, that is aggressive and stupid enough to give them propaganda victories in their own world. They wouldn't want a full war, they would want to provoke the enemy into limited engagements, punishment actions. Actions that cause friction and costs, by making SK or USA run into heavy defenses.

*cough* *cough*

Disclaimer: This analysis is explicitly without the participation of the Federal Republic of Germany and not a preparation of an offensive war, as declared illegal by Article 26 of the German Basic Law and §80 of the German Criminal Code

 

[Viper1]

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID after the U.S. Congress cut off funding. We turned over to the South Vietnamese more Freed territory than at any time during the entire conflict. The South Vietnamese ran out of fuel, ammunition and other supplies because of a lack of support from Congress while the North Vietnamese were very well supplied by China and the Soviet Union. WE WON EVERY BATTLE!!! I SHOULD KNOW, I WAS THERE!!! Politicians pulled out because the war was unpopular and they feared for their seats, not because of defeat of the U.S. MILITARY.

 

[Urwumpe]

You do know that you make things worse in your pseudo-religious dogma of the US being invincible? Now you make things sound as if you did not loose the war, but just decided to stop fighting and go home, because it was no longer fun.

Which is really idiotic.

And Viper1, where have you been in 'Nam? You have likely not been born then, because you don't know at which time of the war the USA retreated their soldiers. The map didn't change at all until then, it was a back to normal.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War"]Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Also the North Vietnam forces did not win by sheer numbers, but by incompetence by both South Vietnam forces and US forces. The right quote for the tactical victories of the USA are thousands of years old:

One more such victory would utterly undo me.

 

[Viper1]

You do know that you make things worse in your pseudo-religious dogma of the US being invincible? Now you make things sound as if you did not loose the war, but just decided to stop fighting and go home, because it was no longer fun.

Which is really idiotic.

And Viper1, where have you been in 'Nam? You have likely not been born then, because you don't know at which time of the war the USA retreated their soldiers. The map didn't change at all until then, it was a back to normal.

Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also the North Vietnam forces did not win by sheer numbers, but by incompetence by both South Vietnam forces and US forces. The right quote for the tactical victories of the USA are thousands of years old:

One more such victory would utterly undo me.

Not that its your business but Im not a KID I'm 60 years old and I served in Viet Nam.
Congress ordered an end to direct U.S. military involvement in August 1973. US financial aid to South Vietnam was cut off in August 1974 and Saigon fell to the communists in April 1975. I left Vietnam in 1972 at age 22.

 

[Urwumpe]

Not that its your business but Im not a KID I'm 60 years old and I served in Viet Nam.

And if you would be 70 and a serving at Wendies. In the internet, nobody knows you are a dog.

Don't try to argue by authority here. It is a bad bad bad bad choice, because you have no authority (unless you are Admin or moderator). have the better arguments or get burned.

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------

BTW: The claim that the US never lost a battle in Vietnam is also not true, I managed to find one, after some many battles that had officially only South Vietnamese forces:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lam_Son_719"]Operation Lam Son 719 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[MJR]

Not that its your business but Im not a KID I'm 60 years old and I served in Viet Nam.
Congress ordered an end to direct U.S. military involvement in August 1973. US financial aid to South Vietnam was cut off in August 1974 and Saigon fell to the communists in April 1975. I left Vietnam in 1972 at age 22.

That is what I was saying. The NVA and VC soldiers only took advantage of the situation to defeat the ARVN because we left. They knew they couldn't do that if we were still there. Neither army is incompetent. Each side fought for their land as any other would and unfortunately not every country is perfect. The only ignorance in war was WW2 with Germany, Italy, and Japan thinking they would rule the world. Germany couldn't even defeat the poor Russian army. We were about to invade Japan and Italy was demolished.

Anyway, you make it seem like the U.S. sucks. You need to realize that we would be the ones to help Germany out if they ever got in some engagement of some type. Nobody appreciates us anymore, but yet everywhere around the world our culture is popular. To some it is not, but others it is. It is childish to be ignoring the fact that we help out with so many things around the world. Our government might make decisions that we don't approve of, but the U.S. citizens are not the government, we do not make the decisions.

 

[SiberianTiger]

You know, I have nothing against American people (I think they are just brilliant people), but after listening to some American hawks I always inclined to believe that certain very advanced cases of arrogance are only to be healed by bloodletting... This tends to turn people to civilized.

 

[Urwumpe]

You know, I have nothing against American people (I think they are just brilliant people), but after listening to some American hawks I always inclined to believe that certain very advanced cases of arrogance are only to be healed by bloodletting... This tends to turn people to civilized.

Would be nicer if the hawks would die first. But those are usually sitting far behind the front line, complaining about the incompetence of those who fight and how they would do it all much better against such inferior opponents.

 

[MJR]

You know, I have nothing against American people (I think they are just brilliant people), but after listening to some American hawks I always inclined to believe that certain very advanced cases of arrogance are only to be healed by bloodletting... This tends to turn people to civilized.

It is just that certain individuals all around the world love to hate the American Imperialists. :lol:

You know hate is generated by jealousy and envy. Many countries wish that they could be just like or similar to the United States of America. Although all my family lives in Brazil and Italy, I am an American citizen and take pride in that. I love my heritage of Portuguese, Italian, and German, but those countries will never be like the U.S. Same thing with my mom. She lived 17 years in Brazil and 9 in Italy. She is more American and wants to be more American than anything else. She is fluent in 6 languages and is working on her Masters degree in International Relations.

Now to say that you would wish the "hawks" would die first when you are relating to the U.S., if you would ever say that here I can guarantee you would not be seen again. I appreciate the work that MY military does for our country and I am saying it is neither easy or simple. You on the other hand are criticizing everything about the U.S., but you know how bad Germany is too? Don't even start with that.

 

[Urwumpe]

Many countries wish that they could be just like or similar to the United States of America.

Only Texas and Alaska.

The times when people saw the USA are some kind of role model are long gone. Today, things are more like that:

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.

 

[MJR]

Only Texas and Alaska.

The times when people saw the USA are some kind of role model are long gone. Today, things are more like that:

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.

It is long gone for the countries that don't have the decency to evaluate the current situation in the U.S. and its government.

 

[insanity]

That is what I was saying. The NVA and VC soldiers only took advantage of the situation to defeat the ARVN because we left.

Wars are not fought solely in the battlefield. Sure, our soldiers did an incredible job, but the whole war was mismanaged by Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. None of them wanted to commit the resources necessary to defeating the North, so the war became stagnate and unpopular. Simply put, we lost the war politically. Both because of war fatigue and because our strategy was not adapted to the reality of the fight. Also, it is universally accepted that we lost, so the real question should be why we were there in the first place and how we thought another puppet government would be good for Vietnam. All we did was embolden the communists.

The only ignorance in war was WW2 with Germany, Italy, and Japan thinking they would rule the world. Germany couldn't even defeat the poor Russian army. We were about to invade Japan and Italy was demolished.

Do you know how many armies have fallen trying to fight the 'poor' Russian army? Even Napoleon couldn't manage to take Russia- falling before the harsh climate and often harsher people.

On your WW2 comment: The US, UK, and France won the war(s) and got to organize the modern world largely how they saw fit. That was the prize for WW2- control of the modern world. Germany, Japan, and Italy were well positioned to win the prize for some time.

Nobody appreciates us anymore, but yet everywhere around the world our culture is popular. To some it is not, but others it is. It is childish to be ignoring the fact that we help out with so many things around the world. Our government might make decisions that we don't approve of, but the U.S. citizens are not the government, we do not make the decisions.

The U.S. is unpopular around the world because we are (still) the hegemon. Fairly or not, the decisions of US policy makers directly impact the lives of uncountable numbers of people. Our corporations, our soldiers, and our culture are the predominant image of current western globalized culture. In the last 30 years or so, we've largely tried to dictate global policy (Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and to some extents-Obama) and naturally that causes hard feelings amongst both our friends and enemies. We are both the protectors and the bullies, depending on how you look at it.

I agree that often the criticism of the United States is unfair, because much of the blame for the problems in the world can be spread around to all its inhabitants.

 

[N_Molson]

The only ignorance in war was WW2 with Germany, Italy, and Japan thinking they would rule the world. Germany couldn't even defeat the poor Russian army.

The Red Army under Stalin & Joukov orders... Poor... *cough cough*

 

[Urwumpe]

You on the other hand are criticizing everything about the U.S., but you know how bad Germany is too? Don't even start with that.

Where shall I start? At the bloody party politics? The unfair taxation? The collapsing health system? That the education system is ruined for saving a few bank accounts? The poor equipment of the German soldiers or the fact that the draft system is already only virtually existing?

Of course I know that Germany is bad. But it isn't as bad as the USA yet. The more you learn about US politics, the less you can complain about the EU.

 

[MJR]

So list the pros and cons of the U.S. compared to Germany then. I lived in Germany for 3 years and most of my life here in the U.S. so I would love to here how living in the U.S. is worse.

 

[N_Molson]

Of course I know that Germany is bad.

Actually, Germany is the 1st economical power in EU, and the 5th on the planet ! Not that bad

 

[Urwumpe]

So list the pros and cons of the U.S. compared to Germany then. I lived in Germany for 3 years and most of my life here in the U.S. so I would love to here how living in the U.S. is worse.

fftopic:

Also let me just name one thing, why Germany is better than the USA: We don't violate our own constitution and our own laws for our foreign politics. Maybe we need some reminders sometimes, but we never would consider it "ungerman" to object such crimes. As soldier, you are actually forced to refuse illegal orders.

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

Actually, Germany is the 1st economical power in EU, and the 5th on the planet ! Not that bad

Of course, we make all the others in the EU poorer that way. Which is evil. We should pay higher salaries and sell our products for even more money, than we already do. But I suspect then even more people will buy it, and make the rest of the world even poorer.

 

[MJR]

Ok then lets all get back on topic.