If Palin was a man...

Notebook

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
News Reporter
Donator
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
11,825
Reaction score
644
Points
188
So, seriously -- obviously the majority sentiment on this forum is pro-Obama, so I'd really like to know -- did the media outlets you see have any discussion of Biden's misstatements of fact?

Some BBC comments on the debate, I haven't tallied the count myself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7649833.stm

N.

p.s. I don't know if I am pro-Obama, but I get all my American political news from the Jon Stewart show. He seems quite impartial, but a lot of the references I don't get...
 
Last edited:

simonpro

Beta Tester
Beta Tester
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
1,042
Reaction score
7
Points
0
So, seriously -- obviously the majority sentiment on this forum is pro-Obama, so I'd really like to know -- did the media outlets you see have any discussion of Biden's misstatements of fact?


Yes, both the Danish and both the Swedish newspapers I get talked about Biden's factual problems, just as they talked about Palin's mistakes. In the majority of cases I can't see the problem, everyone makes mistakes and a few of those made were trifling, not worth bothering about. I can't imagine anyone could do a 90 minute live TV interview without making a few factual errors.

The majority sentiment here (both in the press and from amongst those I know) is that Palin came across better than expected, but still isn't quite deemed the "right stuff" for the job. Hopefully her advisors will be able to bash her brain a bit more to get that into her head that she needs to act a bit more stately. She may (or may not, I didn't see the debate) know what she's talking about, but she certainally doesn't act like it. God help her if she ever has to meet foreign leaders.
 

n0mad23

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
1,078
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Montesano
Website
soundcloud.com
I think it would have been received/analyzed differently if it had been a Democrat woman. There seem to be different expectations involved for some reason....

MSNBC pointed out that Biden's (and other liberal) accusations of Dubya and the Republicans' deregulation causing the current financial disaster was disingenuous. Liberals (in Clinton years) were solidly behind deregulation, too. Biden, himself, voted for the questionable bill in 1999.

MSNBC also took Biden to task for his claim that McCain supports a $4 billion tax break for the oil companies. The $4 billion tax break is for all corporations.

Other misstatements were exaggerations.

They took Palin to task with about as many "column" inches.

I'm really curious about how people think Palin came off in this. I personally thought her performance emphasizes how unqualified she is for the position. Sure there's an appeal in the image of an outsider coming in to clean up the system. But what can you change if you're totally ignorant about said system? I really wasn't impressed with her view of the VP's role as promoted by Cheney. I was less than impressed when she called bin Laden a "Shia terrorist." Invoking General McClellan...well, maybe I'm nitpicking, but even this one seems highly suspect.
 

fort

Active member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
20
Points
38
You say ? ."If Palin had been a man, how .... "

Good...Euh...for saying...

Well. Euh... They would have most surely done us share of their surprise (of their consternation ?), to see a man presenting itself as VP equipped with a tailor, carrying high heels, rigged out of a possible false chest (I want to say: this man...), made up lips and making winks with the camera. Besides nothing more.

Ah yes ! And asking its opponent: "Can I call you Joe ?"

Another question ?
 

Ghostrider

Donator
Donator
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,606
Reaction score
2
Points
78
Location
Right behind you - don't look!
Well. Euh... They would have most surely done us share of their surprise (of their consternation ?), to see a man presenting itself as VP equipped with a tailor, carrying high heels, rigged out of a possible false chest (I want to say: this man...), made up lips and making winks with the camera.

Well, it would have made for an interesting sight. A song might also have been in order: "Don't get strung out by the way I look/Don't judge a book by its cove-e-er..."
 

Eagle

The Amazing Flying Tuna Can
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
1,105
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Theoretically raw experience should not be a factor. Assuming that you have competent advisers (I think a fair assumption in most cases). Still not good enough to keep you from saying dumb stuff, but any adviser worth a damn should be able to explain the situation and alternatives. In an ideal world the two things to be concerned about is the person's raw judgment and what policies they will be pushing.

If Palin was a white man there would be significantly less sexist comments (by non-party actors). I guess the official attack would be similar, a dumb fundamentalist christian(Bush III stuff which seems to be the main attack on McCain as well). Maybe some more 'Tool of the oil companies stuff.'
 

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
I'm really curious about how people think Palin came off in this. I personally thought her performance emphasizes how unqualified she is for the position. Sure there's an appeal in the image of an outsider coming in to clean up the system. But what can you change if you're totally ignorant about said system? I really wasn't impressed with her view of the VP's role as promoted by Cheney. I was less than impressed when she called bin Laden a "Shia terrorist." Invoking General McClellan...well, maybe I'm nitpicking, but even this one seems highly suspect.

I'm speaking from memory here, but I think she actually referred to "Shia terrorists" as an adjunct to and not an adjective of bin Laden. I remember it, because I was impressed with the detail, having held my breath every time she started to use details.

As for impressions, well, as I've said elsewhere, I don't have the same visceral "she's unprepared" reaction. We could have this fight forever and it doesn't really matter now, since an Obama victory seems assured, but if we're just talking about impressions, she's no less qualified than Obama (being a tag-along Democrat with Dick Lugar on a single significant piece of legislation doesn't a statesman make) -- they're both young, they both have short political careers and they've both come up from highly ideological backgrounds.

As I've also said elsewhere, I know a lot of women like Palin, and they don't scare me the way they scare people in New York and San Francisco and Hollywood and Madison. I think a whole lot of the Bill Maher-ish reaction to her is, ironically, simply a reaction to "the Other" -- they personally don't know ANYONE like her (or John McCain, for that matter), and she scares them because of that. They know a lot of people like Barak Obama, and that makes them comfortable.

-- Just checked ... I was right. Here's the text:

We cannot afford to lose against al Qaeda and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us, but we're getting closer and closer to victory. And it would be a travesty if we quit now in Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/

The temptation to psychoanalyze why you heard this wrong is restistable ...
 

Andy44

owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Addon Developer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
7,620
Reaction score
7
Points
113
Location
In the Mid-Atlantic states
I agree with Greg, Palin doesn't scare me, and for a VP the question isn't "how many trivia questions can she answer", it's "how quickly can she learn on the fly".

As for the orginal question: If Palin were a man she wouldn't have that hottie librarian thing going on and that would be a negative. Who could vote for a guy from Alaska who wears lipstick? (And what would that say about the dearth of females in Alaska?)

And BTW: Biden, 30-year senator, does not know the constitutional duties of the vice president. Think that might be important for a VP candidate, given that the VP is president of the Senate?
 

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
Since all discussion of the presidential election is now of academic interest only, and since we're talking about subjective impressions, there's this:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news...han-biden-despite-less-income-2008-10-03.html

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin made considerably less money than rival Sen. Joe Biden, but the Palin family gave more to charity in the last two years than Biden has in the last eight combined, according to Palin's tax records released Friday afternoon.

Palin, the running mate of presidential candidate Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), and her husband Todd reported meager earnings from 2006 and 2007, at least by presidential-politics standards.

In 2006, the Palins paid $11,944 in taxes on $127,869 in income. In 2007, they paid $24,738 on $166,080.

But in 2006, they donated $4,880 to charity, and in 2007, they donated $3,325.

By contrast, Biden (D-Del.), Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's running mate, has donated a total of $3,690 since 1998 despite his higher Senate salary, according to an analysis posted by National Review.
Which is consistent with the kind of research discussed here:

http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm

that seems to find an over-all phenomenon that people who identify themselves as "on the right" tend to give more to charity than people who identify themselves as "on the left."

True or false, and whether it's really indicative of significant underlying differences in morality, things like this tend to be the kinds of small details that will reinforce the forlorn support for the McCain/Palin ticket among conservatives. They reinforce the existing stereotypes that tend to motivate the "lizard brain" choice they are making based on their perceptions of character. Again, right or wrong, the majority of people who support the McCain/Palin ticket see them as exemplars of an ideal of voluntaristic engagement with society, whereas they perceive Obama and Biden as embodiments of a mentality in which civic engagement is less voluntary and more a thing that is imposed by government "for your own good."
 

Usonian

Historic Ship & Base Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
220
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
Asheville, NC
So, seriously -- obviously the majority sentiment on this forum is pro-Obama, so I'd really like to know -- did the media outlets you see have any discussion of Biden's misstatements of fact?

This is the second time you asked, so I will give you an answer. I haven't yet read the rest of the thread, so I apologize if this turns out to be redundant.

When Biden lectured Palin (and all of America) on the constitutional duties of the Vice-President, he cited Article I, which actually addresses legislative powers, rather than Article II addressing executive powers - and for a guy with Biden's resume, that's a pretty big boner. I heard this from at least three different commentators on Air America Radio (and they lean further left than a Gemini launch gantry - try using that metaphore on any other web forum!:lol:) Rachel Maddow is probably the most screechy and harsh of the Air America "bloviators" (I can never get through more than a few minutes of her smarmy delivery before fleeing to music radio) but on Friday, somewhere early in the show, she listed "lies" on both sides. In Maddow World any mistaken utterance is cast as a "lie." (What a b:censored:tch - oops, harshness is catching.) My brain failed to write either list to long-term memory, except for Biden's Constitutional gaffe, and probably I retained that only becuse it was the third time I heard it.

Your question cuts both ways, of course - has Rush Limbaugh or Fox News listed any of Palin's many inaccuracies? It's interesting that one of the Right's favorite critiques of the Left is the Liberal tendancy to "self loathing" most often expressed in "America bashing." I find the Left much more likely to pounce on one of their own than the Right.
 

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
This is the second time you asked, so I will give you an answer. I haven't yet read the rest of the thread, so I apologize if this turns out to be redundant.

When Biden lectured Palin (and all of America) on the constitutional duties of the Vice-President, he cited Article I, which actually addresses legislative powers, rather than Article II addressing executive powers - and for a guy with Biden's resume, that's a pretty big boner. I heard this from at least three different commentators on Air America Radio (and they lean further left than a Gemini launch gantry - try using that metaphore on any other web forum!:lol:) Rachel Maddow is probably the most screechy and harsh of the Air America "bloviators" (I can never get through more than a few minutes of her smarmy delivery before fleeing to music radio) but on Friday, somewhere early in the show, she listed "lies" on both sides. In Maddow World any mistaken utterance is cast as a "lie." (What a b:censored:tch - oops, harshness is catching.) My brain failed to write either list to long-term memory, except for Biden's Constitutional gaffe, and probably I retained that only becuse it was the third time I heard it.

Your question cuts both ways, of course - has Rush Limbaugh or Fox News listed any of Palin's many inaccuracies? It's interesting that one of the Right's favorite critiques of the Left is the Liberal tendancy to "self loathing" most often expressed in "America bashing." I find the Left much more likely to pounce on one of their own than the Right.

This was what I was asking, thanks. Now that I'm working to "de-invest" my heart in this election (in order to minimize my own personal disappointment in the result -- a purely subjective and emotional exercise), I'm trying to stay engaged in as detached a way as possible.

One of the things I'm trying to do is get a handle on are the sources of information and analysis other people rely on as a foundation for their political views. As with most things in life, I'm coming to realize more and more that the way I go about finding information and analysis of political matters is so atypical that I have to try to be very conscious of the fact that I may hear or see things that just don't get onto the radar screens of more typical observers of the political scene. To a very great extent, political philosophy is the core of my intellectual life, so it's just very hard for me to work to a point of view that is any kind of reliable "emulator" of people who don't devote so much time and effort to the subject.

I'm not trying to sound "elitist" there -- it's just a matter of personal interest for me. It's like "sports talk." When my colleagues at work start into a real deep discussion of professional sports, I just have nothing to say, because I don't devote any time or effort to it. I'm a total ignoramus about, and don't have any appreciation for the subject.

With that said, it's obvious to me that the political character of folks on this forum, while it varies a lot, also tends to not be "typical" as compared to what we'd find if we were just grabbing people off the street to develop some kind of statistically meaningful "average voter."

There was one particular statement Biden made that I was curious about in terms of whether it got play in whatever sources people were looking to for information -- this was his gross mangling of the history and political dynamics of Hezzbollah and Lebanon. I've looked at it over and over and, for the life of me, I can't figure out what he was thinking about or trying to say. Unlike some of the other "misstatements" that were clearly momentary brain-farts or simple rhetorical exaggerations, this one is just from an alternative universe. The specific point of interest on this one is my feeling that, had Palin made a similar statement, it would have been, well, you know what I think ...
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,769
Reaction score
2,527
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
GregBurch: I think the donations would be far more interesting, if we would know, where they ended. ;)

As far as I know, church donations in the US also count as charity. So, if somebody as fundamentalist as Palin did not donate a large amount of money to her church, I would be pretty disappointed, as even a muslim assembly line worker in the US donates more money per year as Palin in that direction.
 

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
GregBurch: I think the donations would be far more interesting, if we would know, where they ended. ;)

As far as I know, church donations in the US also count as charity. So, if somebody as fundamentalist as Palin did not donate a large amount of money to her church, I would be pretty disappointed, as even a muslim assembly line worker in the US donates more money per year as Palin in that direction.

That's true, and I'm sure a majority of her donations were aimed at some kind of religious institution. On the other hand, a very, very large part of "social-action" activity in the US is based in and arises out of religious activity. When Houston absorbed tens of thousands of refugees from New Orleans after Katrina, a major part (if not the majority) of the charitable activity was church-centered. In my neighborhood, local churches took in refugees and housed them and helped manage their relocation to more permanent housing, and they organized extremely local donation projects. For instance, the day that about 200 refugees arrived in local churches (within a mile or so of my house), these institutions organized a program for households to donate things like toothpaste and deoderant and underwear -- all the little details of life that the refugees had had to quickly leave New Orleans without. This kind of thing doesn't register in any official statistical record of charity.
 

Usonian

Historic Ship & Base Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
220
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
Asheville, NC
As I've also said elsewhere, I know a lot of women like Palin, and they don't scare me the way they scare people in New York and San Francisco and Hollywood and Madison...

What "kind of women" is it that you imagine scaring the East Coast Elite? Strong, smart, strident, successful, ruthless women... like Hillary Clinton? Hillary garnered tens of millions of votes, coming close to earning a nomination, and terrifying Fox News.

I think the things that irritate Liberals, on both coasts, about "women like Palin" is that they too are strong, smart, strident, successful and ruthless, but they insist on casting themselves as apron-wearing, cookie-baking, "hockey moms." The hypocracy is irritating. What scares East Coast Elites about Palin is the same thing that scared them about W. Bush: Marginally experienced, faithed-based, lacking intellectual curiousity and in way over their heads.

Elizabeth Dole is one of many conservative women who don't scare Liberals in the way you imagine. Conservative women like Dole "scare" us (i.e. earn our respect) becuse they are smart, capable, impressive, persuasive and very conservative (talk about scary). The Republicans can't nominate someone like that for President because the party base is made up of faith-based intellectual pretenders just like Palin.

-----

I am becoming aware of a tendancy to seek out your posts, Greg. You always present such an interesting challenge to my way of thinking. I imagine that it keeps me sharp (or less dull). But I worry about a "let's all pile on Greg" phenomenon. I hope you don't take it (too) personally.

You are precisely the sort of deep thinker that could never win a Republican nomination for President. I find curious your steadfast support of the anti-intellects who keep getting the Republican nod. What's up with that?
 
Last edited:

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,769
Reaction score
2,527
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
That's true, and I'm sure a majority of her donations were aimed at some kind of religious institution. On the other hand, a very, very large part of "social-action" activity in the US is based in and arises out of religious activity.

Not different here, but because we have officially less separation between church and state as in the USA, churches are supported not only by donations, but also by taxes. With the price for the churches being the traditional inclusion in the German welfare state (Was always like that for almost a millennium here).

This aspect is also, what makes it hard to integrate the Islam into Germany - the people are there and they are interested, but as long as the Muslim groups can't agree on some sort of working political structure inside Germany, they can't be treated like the other religions - even Shinto is recognized religion here and the Alevis have early managed to take part inside the welfare system.


This kind of thing doesn't register in any official statistical record of charity.

Guess how many people don't even know, that such simple aspects of life as daytime child care often is supported by churches in Germany. If you take your religion serious, you have to wait until somebody notices your good work.

(That's also what keeps me from revoking my membership inside the church, even if this would save me a few € taxes per year.)
 

Usonian

Historic Ship & Base Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
220
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
Asheville, NC
...Guess how many people don't even know, that such simple aspects of life as daytime child care often is supported by churches in Germany. If you take your religion serious, you have to wait until somebody notices your good work.

(That's also what keeps me from revoking my membership inside the church, even if this would save me a few € taxes per year.)

The general impression here is that religion plays a small, almost vanishing, role in European social order and government (you are all a bunch of Godless Communitists,etc). But in fact, you are telling us that religion in Germany is a full participant in the welfare state!

Meanwhile, here in the USA we have a Constitution that specifically prohibits a religious test for holding office, and a traditional "wall of separation" between church and state. But in fact, these days it would be impossible to get elected President without firmly established Christian credentials. Maybe we could tolerate an observant Jewish Vice-President, but an agnostic or athiest? NO WAY!

It makes me wonder: If the conservative Christians finally got their way here in the USA, persuading everyone to "tear down this wall" sepearting church and state, would the results be surprisingly perverse? Once a polyglut of religions got a seat at the governmental table, would religion in general lose its impact and just get subsumed into our welfare state as in Germany?
 

SpaceNut

New member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Lorain
Well, when all you pukes out there vote for Obama, don't whine and complain when he hacks NASA's budget, which is his stated plan. I don't know what debate you all watched, but I thought both Palin and Biden did pretty well in the debate overall. I don't believe in winners and losers, because the liberal media that seems to have you all buying into their propganda always announce how the Democrat won the debate. One would think that in a forum that supports scientific research and space travel in particular would be more apt to lean towards the candidate that's not going to shut you down.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/07/obama-nasa-no-longer-associated-with-inspiration/

All this not to mention that Obama is a socialist...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=obama+is+a+socialist&btnG=Google+Search&aq=1&oq=obama+is+a+so


http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-international-socialist-connections/

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfo-RxkXA8&feature=related"]YouTube - BHO Admits He's a Socialist[/ame]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1768917/posts

Is socialism what we really want in America? I don't think so, and I don't think that the people who support Obama want that either, but I think that they just don't know (because they don't bother to do the research).

Wake up people. Obama is not good for America. Socialism is not good for America. Do the due dilligance before you go out and vote for Obama because you like his propoganda that you see in the 30 second spots on television.
 

Ghostrider

Donator
Donator
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,606
Reaction score
2
Points
78
Location
Right behind you - don't look!
The general impression here is that religion plays a small, almost vanishing, role in European social order and government (you are all a bunch of Godless Communitists,etc). But in fact, you are telling us that religion in Germany is a full participant in the welfare state!

That's true in Switzerland too. Moreover, our Constitution begins with the words "IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE ALMIGHTY" (all capitals), our national anthem is a prayer, our flag is a cross, the swearing in of any official is accompanied by the gesture of the raised arm, with three fingers extended which also has religious connotations (representing the Holy Trinity I think, it's used by the Swiss Guards as well). So, we're not that God-less.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,769
Reaction score
2,527
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
The general impression here is that religion plays a small, almost vanishing, role in European social order and government (you are all a bunch of Godless Communitists,etc). But in fact, you are telling us that religion in Germany is a full participant in the welfare state!

Of course. Could you imagine Italy with out the roman catholic church?

And the German model is pretty unique in Europe, don't worry. I think the Scandinavian countries have similar concepts, but not to the same extend.

Meanwhile, here in the USA we have a Constitution that specifically prohibits a religious test for holding office, and a traditional "wall of separation" between church and state. But in fact, these days it would be impossible to get elected President without firmly established Christian credentials. Maybe we could tolerate an observant Jewish Vice-President, but an agnostic or athiest? NO WAY!

Well, you have to remember, that religion plays a different role in your national identity.

It makes me wonder: If the conservative Christians finally got their way here in the USA, persuading everyone to "tear down this wall" sepearting church and state, would the results be surprisingly perverse? Once a polyglut of religions got a seat at the governmental table, would religion in general lose its impact and just get subsumed into our welfare state as in Germany?

Well, we had a quite complex history behind us, to result in the current system. In the beginning, you had ONLY the church as instrument of welfare. Also, you had first only little religious freedom, later none. The most important thing, the USA likely misses, is the Prussian Kingdom. Prussia is still an important part of our national identity, and Prussia was more than just the Army with it's own state, it's neighbors saw. It also had more civil liberties as other countries. You had effectively a protected freedom of religion ("Everybody should become happy according to his own facon", compare this to the "Pursuit of happiness"), you also had a education system which did not depend on a major religion, just as you also had a growing atheist welfare system. Prussia attracted thinkers of the enlightenment during it's prime time and embraced their ideas. Including a limited form of constitutionalism - the king was subject to his own laws (with limitations, but compared to other European countries, it was revolutionary).

This Prussia formed the later German empire and the extension of the welfare state during Bismark. This system got effectively destroyed by the Nazis, but was later restored during the hardships of the post-war years. Before Germany as country as able to act, churches already helped.

So, what is the difference? We reduced the dependency on churches. While they are still an important factor in Germanies social system, you don't need to rely on them, you also have alternatives. As Prussias identity came more from the Ideal of enlightenment, these ideals also dominate in Germanies national identity.

But still:

Conscious of their responsibility before God and Men, Animated by the resolve to serve world peace as an equal partner in a united Europe, the German people have adopted, by virtue of their constituent power, this Basic Law.
The Germans in the Länder of Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria, Berlin, Brandenburg, Bremen, Hamburg, Hesse, Lower Saxony, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, North-Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Schleswig-Holstein, and Thuringia have achieved the unity and freedom of Germany in free self-determination. This Basic Law is thus valid for the entire German People.


You have a reference to religion in the constitution - in it's preamble. Religion is not part of the laws, but it is still important, when constitutional decisions have to be made, as one foundation of the constitution. But I think, the difference to the interpretation of the religious right in the USA is, that religion is clearly understood (from this prussian idea) as private matter. Even the churches don't attempt to change this, outside their own rows. Of course you need to be a man of faith, to become bishop. But the churches will not tell people, that they should not vote you, because you have the wrong faith. The churches don't have so much power over the people, especially because religion is private matter here.

I don't think, that a Jewish politician becoming Chancellor here, would be impossible. I don't even think, he will have a harder time as Christians. If he does a good job as politician, he does not need his religion as reason to vote him. Who knows which religion Gerhard Schröder followed?


-----Posted Added-----


Is socialism what we really want in America?

Obviously, in the moment you failed, and you are only one step away from living in the streets, socialism becomes attractive, doesn't it? What else is the 700 billion dollar bail out, as applied socialism. Not even Germans would go so far to disturb the market forces, as the USA did the last days.

You only use socialism as an sticker, an insult, but you obviously fail to recognize it, when it hits you right in the face.
 
Top