NASSP -- help with +Xsc item

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hi,

I'm laboring mightily on each step of the checklist. I've gotten up to:

Mnvr to place +Xsc in orb plane (0° yaw)

(Apollo 7 checklist [Excel version], ORDEAL Init, Line 14)
(about 39 minutes into the mission)

I don't know how to do this. Please assist.

Thanks!

--PDN
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
The important part here is the 0° yaw. You really only have to be approximately at zero, so that in the next step when you calculate the pitch angle over the local horizon with V83E, the computer has an easier time calculating a correct value. Not much precision required, just be close to 0° yaw on the FDAI.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Thanks! I thought I tried using the joystick to fire RCS, but it failed.

Are there keystrokes? Same numpad as elsewhere in Orbiter?

Thanks.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hi -- its that "provided" bit that's now hanging me up.

I know about disabling standard joystick switch in opening screen.

Can you point me to the area of the checklists which turns on the
RCS thrusters?

Or, if you know it by heart, can you tell me which switches to throw?

Thanks - and please excuse my newbie-ness.

--PDN

Yeah, numpad can be used for rotations and translations, provided that all the systems are correctly configured.

NASSP uses a special joystick configuration, you need to disable it on the normal joystick page of the Orbiter launcher and follow these instructions: http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Launchpad_Configuration_Options#Controls
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
You partially deactivate the RCS after insertion when you are still attached to the S-IVB, per checklist. The necessary switches to have it fully active again are part of the separation checklist. If that doesn't work, you can post a scenario here and I can take a look.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Ah -- I think its making sense. Correct -- The CSM, SM, and S-IVB (I'm guessing this is the stage which holds the LM) are all still connected where I am in the sim. So I'll go back and look where I de-activated the RCS after insertion.

Looks like involves turning gimble motors back on, MN Bus bats, dV thrusters perhaps? (guessing now), and a bunch of Auto RCS switches. Lots of other stuff could be involved, so...

I'm attaching a quicksave of where I currently am....

Seems odd -- if Apo 7 was going to need to get yaw to 0, don't you think the checklists would have directed them to turn on RCS?

Thanks so much, and let me know if I'm bugging you too much.

--PDN

You partially deactivate the RCS after insertion when you are still attached to the S-IVB, per checklist. The necessary switches to have it fully active again are part of the separation checklist. If that doesn't work, you can post a scenario here and I can take a look.
 

Attachments

  • Apo7 VAGC t+39 ordeal init ln 16.scn
    135.2 KB · Views: 187
Last edited:

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
Ah -- I think its making sense. Correct -- The CSM, SM, and S-IVB (I'm guessing this is the stage which holds the LM) are all still connected where I am in the sim. So I'll go back and look where I de-activated the RCS after insertion.

With the S-IVB still attached it's its job to do the attitude control. And obviously there is no LM on Apollo 7 ;)

Looks like involves turning gimble motors back on, MN Bus bats, dV thrusters perhaps? (guessing now), and a bunch of Auto RCS switches. Lots of other stuff could be involved, so...

Mostly the Auto RCS Switches in your current configuration, I think. You'll get there in the checklist.

Seems odd -- if Apo 7 was going to need to get yaw to 0, don't you think the checklists would have directed them to turn on RCS?

Ah, I see what the issue here is. The Checklist MFD uses a generic ORDEAL initialization checklist independent from the mission phase. It's just part of this general checklist to go back to 0° yaw. If you are too far out (say, 45° yaw) then the AGC routine started with V83E might get into trouble calculating the pitch angle. But with the S-IVB you don't need to activate your RCS. The old Saturn autopilot simply goes inertial after insertion (not sure how you are so perfectly prograde in your scenario...) and should be close enough to 0° yaw, as you are in your scenario. The new Saturn autopilot, which is still in development and can be used with the experimental Apollo 7 vAGC LVDC++ scenario, will essentially hold a prograde attitude in Earth orbit.

The new autopilot also allows S-IVB Takeover, where the astronauts take over manual control of the S-IVB. This was tested during Apollo 7. I don't think the Excel checklist and the Checklist MFD are up-to-date for this procedure though.

And then there also was a backup procedure, if the thrusters of the S-IVB failed, where the SM RCS was used to control the whole thing. But that shouldn't be necessary just to initialize the ORDEAL.

Thanks so much, and let me know if I'm bugging you too much.

--PDN

No problem, the CSM is kind of a complicated machine. And there also is a lack of good documentation of the most up-to-date development state of NASSP. We are working on that...
 
Last edited:

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alright -- making progress.

Made it thru CSM-LV sep, Flightplan, CM-SM sep, and Splashdown.

Disturbed by the fact that at no point did I burn retrograde, or orient the capsule heat shield down.

Orbit MFD tells me PeA is 238k and ApA is 282k.

Also disturbed by the fact that Flightplan ended with "to be continued."

At what point do I burn retro, and orient the capsule? And of course, is there a checklist to do these things?

Attached is latest quicksave.

Thanks -- almost home!

--PDN
 

Attachments

  • Apo7 VAGC t+39 ordeal init ln 16 0009.scn
    124.2 KB · Views: 173

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
Alright -- making progress.

Made it thru CSM-LV sep,
Great!
Flightplan,

Wait...

CM-SM sep, and Splashdown.

No, no, you still have 200+ hours of mission to go. :lol:


Disturbed by the fact that at no point did I burn retrograde, or orient the capsule heat shield down.

Orbit MFD tells me PeA is 238k and ApA is 282k.

Also disturbed by the fact that Flightplan ended with "to be continued."

Yeah, the Checklist MFD is not complete by far for Apollo 7. Work is being done to update the flight plans and the Checklist MFD. From around the time of LV Separation you have to use the Excel flight plan, which can be found under \Doc\Project Apollo - NASSP\Flightplans\Apollo 7

At what point do I burn retro, and orient the capsule? And of course, is there a checklist to do these things?

About 259 hours into the mission. And the Excel checklists has most of it.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hee hee -- only 200+ more hours. No problem!!!

I see the major problem now:

I was using Docs/Project Apollo - NASSP/Checklists/Apollo 7 Checklists.xls,
not the file in the Flightplans folder you gave the path to.

Big difference!!!!!

And good thing I quick-saved alot.

Back at it!

--PDN

Great!


Wait...



No, no, you still have 200+ hours of mission to go. :lol:




Yeah, the Checklist MFD is not complete by far for Apollo 7. Work is being done to update the flight plans and the Checklist MFD. From around the time of LV Separation you have to use the Excel flight plan, which can be found under \Doc\Project Apollo - NASSP\Flightplans\Apollo 7



About 259 hours into the mission. And the Excel checklists has most of it.
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
I was using Docs/Project Apollo - NASSP/Checklists/Apollo 7 Checklists.xls,
not the file in the Flightplans folder you gave the path to.

Yep, that actually is the file which supplies the Checklist MFD with checklist items to display. Much better to use the other checklist in combination with this one displayed on the Checklist MFD. That is certainly the preferred way to fly Apollo 7 right now.

The Checklist MFD is a pretty powerful tool, you can manually edit the Excel file to e.g. play the role of the CMP during launch while all tasks done by the CDR and LMP are done completely automatically. It also could potentially automate the CSM while you are flying the LM. At some point in the future at least. Lots of work to be done on the step-by-step checklists.
 
Last edited:

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Cool beans.

Alright -- re-started from launch.

Got to line 88 of Alignment tab in Flightplan Apo7.xls.

Doing P52 IMU alignment. It gave me star 00042. Looked
like APC was adjusting the sextant.

Things seemed to go alright
except when I go to look thru the sextant and/or
scanning telescope, all I see is grey. No stars.

Perhaps an aside: I skipped lines 73-78 because
I don't know if option 2 for entry REFSMMAT is selected.

This can't be right, but dust cover has not been ejected yet...
It can't be that the dust cover is covering the instruments...
can it?

Puzzled again....

--PDN
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
This can't be right, but dust cover has not been ejected yet...
It can't be that the dust cover is covering the instruments...
can it?

Bingo! Damn, is the Excel Flightplan really did this outdated? We really have to work on that...

The optics dust cover is indeed the reason why you don't see stars. What you have to do to jettison it is optics mode manual, optics speed high and then hold the optics hand controller right (button 'D') so long until the cover is jettisoned. The cover will then fly away as space debris (wasn't much of a problem yet in 1968, right? :rofl:)

Perhaps an aside: I skipped lines 73-78 because
I don't know if option 2 for entry REFSMMAT is selected.

Yes, what you want to do at this stage is only a realignment, which is option 3. Option 2 will only be necessary much later.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm starting to feel like you are my mission control on the ground.

"Work the problem, people. Work the problem."

"Failure is not an option!" :cheers:

Thanks again!

--PDN

Bingo! Damn, is the Excel Flightplan really did this outdated? We really have to work on that...

The optics dust cover is indeed the reason why you don't see stars. What you have to do to jettison it is optics mode manual, optics speed high and then hold the optics hand controller right (button 'D') so long until the cover is jettisoned. The cover will then fly away as space debris (wasn't much of a problem yet in 1968, right? :rofl:)



Yes, what you want to do at this stage is only a realignment, which is option 3. Option 2 will only be necessary much later.


---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

Your directions so close. Add:

Panel 100 - G/N Power left switch up to Optics.

---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

Making progress, Houston!

Re-started from launch, using only commands in the Flightplan xls file. (Not using Auto mode in the Checklist MFD).

Made it to P52. Gives me star 00023 (1-30-00 into mission). I actually watched as the
AGC moved the sextant.

A few things: how do I know what star 00023 is? In order to refine and center the sextant and scanning telescope?

Also around GET 1-34-45 the main thruster started firing for no apparent reason. I
didn't do anything. Grey clouds of smoke and thruster sound. Then the sim. mission
control comes on and says, "We're reading your dsky -- looks like your getting some
delta v." What's happening here?

Thanks!

--PDN
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
Made it to P52. Gives me star 00023 (1-30-00 into mission). I actually watched as the
AGC moved the sextant.

A few things: how do I know what star 00023 is? In order to refine and center the sextant and scanning telescope?

The Flightplan has this info on the Alignment page. Here it is:

Press Ctrl+F9 to open the "Visual Helpers" menu
Check "Planetarium mode" in the "Visual helpers" window
Check "Celestial" in the "Markers" box and press the "Config" button nearby
Highlight "Apollo AGC navigation stars" in the "Configure celestial markers" window
Close all of the menu windows

Also around GET 1-34-45 the main thruster started firing for no apparent reason. I
didn't do anything. Grey clouds of smoke and thruster sound. Then the sim. mission
control comes on and says, "We're reading your dsky -- looks like your getting some
delta v." What's happening here?

This is also expected. The Flightplan says on the separation page:

+001:34:32 SIVB propellant venting initiation
Monitor velocity change and change of orbit in Orbit MFD/Project Apollo MFD

+001:46:33 SIVB propellant venting termination

Before that, as per the checklist, you should start program 47 so that the thrust caused by the venting is sensed by the computer.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Hello!

Alright -- re: stars -- somehow the menu selection didn't stick -- got it now and very cool!

Re: timing -- took me a while to figure out that P52 happens in the middle of Separation checklist. But I've got that too, and P52 seems to have worked.

Except -- my star angle difference was 001.37 rather than less than 000.03 -- may be due to slight rotation -- at this point in checklist I don't have RCS so I don't know how to kill rotation....

Moving forward, into Sep chklist, line 29 -- V37E 30E gives me three lines of 00000.
Not getting the GET of the phasing maneuver.

Then when I enter values into V25E, after third valule, OPR ERR light starts flashing. Whether I enter all 00000, or enter 00003 00020 00000.

Out of time now but can't wait to finish this page. Sep is going to happen, and it looks like I'm turning on RCS and will be doing some re-orienting -- oh -- maybe I can use these items to turn on / off RCS in other places?

Thanks again!

--PDN
 

indy91

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
314
Points
98
Re: timing -- took me a while to figure out that P52 happens in the middle of Separation checklist. But I've got that too, and P52 seems to have worked.

Yeah, the way it is written in the flight plan is a little bit unfortunate. It is probably best if the alignment is removed from the main flight plan page. The alignment is also called for on the separation checklist, which makes more sense.

Except -- my star angle difference was 001.37 rather than less than 000.03 -- may be due to slight rotation -- at this point in checklist I don't have RCS so I don't know how to kill rotation....

Yeah, that is not a very good realignment. Did you use the scanning telscope instead of the sextant? The telescope has a fairly large FOV and any star markings should be done with the sextant. If you don't know the difference (for some reason it took me a long time to realize the CSM had two optical instruments), look under Docs at the Crew Module Panel Overview.

With the S-IVB still attached the realignment is a little bit more challenging, because you can't simply null your attitude rates. You basically have to anticipate where the star will be and then mark precisely when it is there. You probably want to try the P52 again, 1.37° star angle difference is for a lot of reasons bad for the guidance and navigation system of the CSM. No sweat, good P52s take practice and operating the AGC is not easy.

Moving forward, into Sep chklist, line 29 -- V37E 30E gives me three lines of 00000.
Not getting the GET of the phasing maneuver.

Yes, because you have to manually type the GET of the phasing maneuver. The AGC does not know itself when you want to do this maneuver.

Then when I enter values into V25E, after third valule, OPR ERR light starts flashing. Whether I enter all 00000, or enter 00003 00020 00000.

Program 30 probably doesn't like all zeros for the GET of the separation maneuver. Also, the sign of the inputs is important, so don't forget the plus signs. V25E +00003E +00020E +00000E is the procedure.
 

foundpra

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Did you use the scanning telescope instead of the sextant?

Yes.

I'm thinking Scanning Tele is on the right, so sextant must be on the left. Yes?
And I'll verify in the Doc you mentioned.

Program 30 probably doesn't like all zeros for the GET of the separation maneuver. Also, the sign of the inputs is important, so don't forget the plus signs. V25E +00003E +00020E +00000E is the procedure.

I missed the signs. Probably why I got the error.

Back up in space soon....

Cheers!
 

STS

Active member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
419
Reaction score
37
Points
43
Location
Vigo
Website
orbisondas.es
Also around GET 1-34-45 the main thruster started firing for no apparent reason. I
didn't do anything. Grey clouds of smoke and thruster sound. Then the sim. mission
control comes on and says, "We're reading your dsky -- looks like your getting some
delta v." What's happening here?

Thanks!

--PDN

It´s the propellant dump from the S-IV-B, it´s on the flightplan.
 
Top