News Osama Bin Laden Killed (American politics discussion)

[Dambuster]

Um this is the united states we already knew that he was imperfect because he is using western technology... The united states government and military dosnt defile that job is left to the public... As for the UK they may do it...

There is nothing inherently bad (from your average Muslim's perspective) about using western technology. Some Muslims will say there is, most probably won't give a hoot one way or another, and some will probably say there is nothing wrong with it.

And we already know (or in the interests of fairness: 'we have reason to believe') that he was a pretty poor Muslim, since he was probably responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians, who were killed in an operation that was carried out by members of a group he founded.

And as for what the Quran says on killing, here's one quote:

Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).

http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation17.php#33

Read this for what I think to be a pretty decent summary of the Quran on the topic of killing: http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm

As for the US government: if by 'defile' you mean 'make propaganda', then I disagree: I think every government makes propaganda of some sort. I would go into details but I'm half asleep right now

 

[Urwumpe]

Um this is the united states we already knew that he was imperfect because he is using western technology...

western technology - Did you ever bother asking yourself the question why there are so many funny names about important technologies, that form the base of our "western technology"? Like Algebra, Algorithm, Alchemy/Chemistry, Azimuth, Admiral, Almanac, Alkali, Guitar, Cipher, Elixir, Alcohol, Arsenal, Coffee,Benzene, Cork, Cotton, Magazine, Natrium, Kalium, Nadir, Zenith, Zero...

Damn, not even assassination is a western technology.

It is not up to Bin Laden and his gang to stop using western technology - it would be much harder stopping using Arabian technology. Even if we no longer use the Arabian names for many technologies, without the work of Muslims we maybe have needed centuries to overcome the idiocy that dominated western science between 700 and 1000 BC. The laws of optics for example, are mostly Arabian, only the discovery of quantum physics permitted non-Muslims to contribute seriously there.

If you would like to limit yourself to US inventions, you could quickly find out that the USA have very little stuff invented themselves. The rest of the world is much bigger there. The US dominance in the computer industry maybe has a preference to call it "von Neumann architecture", but what von Neumann only had on the paper back then, did already exist as solid hardware in the shed of Zuse.

The biggest US inventions in the past century had been transistor and microprocessor, but without other inventions from the rest of the world, both technologies would be just nice looking glass - or not even invented.

So, better be silent and give some many kudos to the many people who made your life as comfortable as it is.

 

[jedidia]

Um this is the united states we already knew that he was imperfect because he is using western technology... The united states government and military dosnt defile that job is left to the public... As for the UK they may do it...

Have you even read my post a few pages back?

What exactly do you mean by "defile"? If you mean "discredit", then I'd say you live in another world than I do. Biased and sometimes unfair and untrue polemics is standard ordonance for all politicians. If by defile you mean the more closely related "rape", or more generally "very offensive behaviour", you should read up on how the US military managed to be considered enemies by the general Afghan population only after a few months in, although they were hailed as liberators at the start.

 

[fsci123]

Have you even read my post a few pages back?

What exactly do you mean by "defile"? If you mean "discredit", then I'd say you live in another world than I do. Biased and sometimes unfair and untrue polemics is standard ordonance for all politicians. If by defile you mean the more closely related "rape", or more generally "very offensive behaviour", you should read up on how the US military managed to be considered enemies by the general Afghan population only after a few months in, although they were hailed as liberators at the start.

I read the news about the war in aftghanistan they originally hailed us a liberators because we freed them from the Taliban... And then they dislike us becaus our military pressense reminded them of soviet occupation in 80s....

 

[Urwumpe]

I read the news about the war in aftghanistan they originally hailed us a liberators because we freed them from the Taliban... And then they dislike us becaus our military pressense reminded them of soviet occupation in 80s....

LOL. You should read more.

The western presence isn't the problem. The people are generally pretty glad to have the other armies around. Even the Germans, despite some major accidents.

The problem had for years been the US behavior towards the local population, that can be summarized as "A little bit of ultraviolence". The US simply did all stuff wrong, that can be done wrong. They ignored local customs, local authorities and local diplomatics. Of course this has to fail. The behavior that US soldiers showed there would have been not even acceptable inside the USA. Take for example the damage, that US patrols did to local water crossings (which had never been designed for armored trucks) - for years, the USA did not even bother fixing the damaged water crossings. It didn't stop your patrols, and if it did you used an alternative patrol route. But the water to the farms had been cut (what looks like it didn't change since the stone age, is actually pretty ingenious and effective there, you would need serious technology to improve it significantly). What would be considered just natural politeness, from just informing the locals about the damage and offering compensation or assistance for fixing the damage, to simply calling a platoon combat engineers to do a better water crossing there on a single day, all such simple manners didn't exist. I have dug up a few of your farm plots with my tanks? Write a protest note to your local governor, he is responsible.
(Which then makes the local governor upset as well).

The biggest errors got fixed in the past years, but the PR damage is done.

 

[Apollo 11]

I think some people are getting too involved in the politics of it all... bin Laden was a threat to many countries and people. He needed to be taken out. It's really as simple as that. People can't come on here and say that the US made a mistake in attempting to capture him. Should we have killed him? Depends on who you ask. Most Americans will probably say yes. We've been trying to capture this man for 10 years, watching our troops get blasted at and killed evry step of the way. I'm sorry to all the non Americans who've commented, nothing bad on you or your country (many have fought in the war as well), but I don't think you can blast the US for doing this. However, the important underlying issue is that a very evil man who was a threat to many people is no longer free to do so, and I have no problem with that.

 

[jedidia]

And then they dislike us becaus our military pressense reminded them of soviet occupation in 80s....

Which should tell you something about the way the military behaved... anyways, Urwumpe wrote enough about that. Having friends that work humanitairian in the country, I have enough insider information on the topic. The problem is that when I would write about some of the most grievious regular offenses, you would just be confused and not understand what is so offensive about it. Which is not only his problem, but that of the US military too. The military stationed there seemed to be utterly oblivious of what is considered polite or offensive in the culture, and they didn't really care much for finding out.

but I don't think you can blast the US for doing this

I'm not, actually. I have my question marks about the operation, but all in all, as I said in my first post in this thread, good ridance. The debate here isn't so much about Bin Laden anymore, but about misconceptions of western superiority.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think some people are getting too involved in the politics of it all... bin Laden was a threat to many countries and people. He needed to be taken out. It's really as simple as that.

Can you even tell what Bin Laden has done? Or for which crimes he was on the FBI's Most Wanted list?

People can't come on here and say that the US made a mistake in attempting to capture him.

Of course they can. That is freedom of opinion. The forum owner can say that some opinions will not be tolerated inside his four walls of the internet, but otherwise, everybody has the damn right to tell you that it was stupid. And if you take your constitution half-way for serious, you won't say "You can't say that", but rather "I don't like what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it with my life."

Think it was no mistake? Pakistan just officially condemned the killing of Bin Laden as violation of their supremacy and considers shutting down all US resupply routes into Afghanistan. Which are very important. Pakistan permits transporting stuff per ship and short land routes, the alternatives mean air lift only.

Maybe it doesn't matter, if you quickly pull out of Afghanistan. But in the current reality, it will be terrible for the US military logistics.

Of course it was a mistake, it was already a mistake that Bin Laden managed to escape for nearly ten years. It was one mistake more in a whole chain of mistakes.

We've been trying to capture this man for 10 years, watching our troops get blasted at and killed every step of the way.

You have not understood what your troops are doing in Afghanistan, have you? Capturing Bin Laden was not the reason, it was one of many tertiary objectives there.

However, the important underlying issue is that a very evil man who was a threat to many people is no longer free to do so, and I have no problem with that.

One dead, thousands more to go. Have fun with the way you have chosen. Evil is abundant. When will you start sending SEALs for killing tax evaders?

 

[fsci123]

LOL. You should read more.

The western presence isn't the problem. The people are generally pretty glad to have the other armies around. Even the Germans, despite some major accidents.

The problem had for years been the US behavior towards the local population, that can be summarized as "A little bit of ultraviolence". The US simply did all stuff wrong, that can be done wrong. They ignored local customs, local authorities and local diplomatics. Of course this has to fail. The behavior that US soldiers showed there would have been not even acceptable inside the USA. Take for example the damage, that US patrols did to local water crossings (which had never been designed for armored trucks) - for years, the USA did not even bother fixing the damaged water crossings. It didn't stop your patrols, and if it did you used an alternative patrol route. But the water to the farms had been cut (what looks like it didn't change since the stone age, is actually pretty ingenious and effective there, you would need serious technology to improve it significantly). What would be considered just natural politeness, from just informing the locals about the damage and offering compensation or assistance for fixing the damage, to simply calling a platoon combat engineers to do a better water crossing there on a single day, all such simple manners didn't exist. I have dug up a few of your farm plots with my tanks? Write a protest note to your local governor, he is responsible.
(Which then makes the local governor upset as well).

The biggest errors got fixed in the past years, but the PR damage is done.

Well as for their crops... I hope I am not supporting stereotypes... But you have aftghanistanian people growing crops and as a reminder Afghanistan produces a lot of opium... And the government here in the US and in aftghanistan urges the locals not to grow large crops of opium... So I will asume after seeing pictures of opium crops that these people are angry because we destroyed their crops of illegal drugs... Which is a good deed to me...

 

[Urwumpe]

But you have aftghanistanian people growing crops and as a reminder Afghanistan produces a lot of opium...

Yes, and guess what. Most of it ends actually traded legally. And a lot of the legally traded opium ends in the US Army. How? Because Morphine is still found in any better equipped hospital.

The smuggling of illegally traded Opium is a problem, yes. But then, you have to remember that there are good reasons why the opium fields are not burned down when discovered. The illegal trade with opium does not only support the Taliban, but also the normal citizens of Afghanistan, it is a big deal of their economy. There are only very very few factories, and even less mines that are still operating. There is no service industry aside catering the foreign troops and humanitarian organizations. The opium trade is the only thing in Afghanistan, which does not hang on the teats of the UN.

 

[jedidia]

I can arrange for a trip through Afghanistan if you want to, as I said, I have friends there...

Just so you get the chance of looking into the eyes of some other families, that have suffered the same loss. But you know what? They would actually let you in and offer you more food than they usually eat in a weak...

Seriously, I'm not critisizing the execution of Bin Laden here. I'm talking of the whole mess that was the Afghanistan operation. I wasn't even AGAINST the operation, but there's a right way to do it, and a wrong way. And everyone picks the wrong way every know and then, but then they could at least say sorry. And not "We had a right to do it because 3000 people died in a terror attack, so shut up!"

 

[Apollo 11]

I agree.

 

[fsci123]

If al-quaeda managed to build 3 nuclear weapons and put one in NY LA and London and detonated them instantly killing 6 million people... Are you going to criticize the US government if we shot the guy who planned it and all 35 of his children wives and relatives...

I was living in NY when the WTC towers fell I saw people crying and sobbing... I saw peices of documents and magazines floating in the air... I saw peices of clothing from people in the tower flying around... So unless you have been in a battlefield don't try to find problems in killin OBL...

 

[Xyon]

OF Staff Note: Thread closed pending staff review.

Thread re-opened after another cleanup. Let's avoid slinging rude comments around, remain calm, discuss the facts and share our opinions remembering that we don't all agree, but we are all capable of debating in a civilised, friendly manner.

 

[jedidia]

phew, this got a bit too hot. Thanks for putting in a break!

Anyways, let's try this again...

If al-quaeda managed to build 3 nuclear weapons and put one in NY LA and London and detonated them instantly killing 6 million people... Are you going to criticize the US government if we shot the guy who planned it and all 35 of his children wives and relatives...

If you slaughter the whole extended family without discrimination, trial and sufficient evidence that each and everyone of them was directly involved, I'd not only criticize it, I'd call it outright murder.

So unless you have been in a battlefield don't try to find problems in killin OBL...

Ummm, flawed argument there. Having combat expierience doesn't mean that you're moraly more or less entitled to judge over life and death than any other citizen. That's what we have courts for. If suffering would make you more entitled to passing a sentence, there are a lot more Afghani and Iraqi with a legitimate stake on sentencing the US than the other way around, I'm afraid.

I don't mean any disrespect to those who have suffered a loss in the attacks. But I will not have their suffering abused for emotional propaganda in whatever purpose.

 

[garyw]

If you slaughter the whole extended family without discrimination, trial and sufficient evidence that each and everyone of them was directly involved, I'd not only criticize it, I'd call it outright murder.

Just to play devils advocate. What if you had solid intelligence that he was planning a serious act of terrorism and you knew his location but you also knew his family was there.

Would you order a drone attack knowing you'll be killing his family as well as him to save other lives?

 

[Urwumpe]

If you slaughter the whole extended family without discrimination, trial and sufficient evidence that each and everyone of them was directly involved, I'd not only criticize it, I'd call it outright murder.

I can only agree. Such actions are just fighting fire with fire, crime with crimes.

Also, there is always the assumption of innocence. Even for the worst terrorist, of which all know for sure that he not only bombed the world into debris, but also stole Christmas. Justice has to be blind.

 

[jedidia]

Just to play devils advocate. What if you had solid intelligence that he was planning a serious act of terrorism and you knew his location but you also knew his family was there.

Would you order a drone attack knowing you'll be killing his family as well as him to save other lives?

Different situation, I'd say... But also a bit too hypothetical to really discuss. If you know he's going to do it there should be a lot of possibilities to prevent it without blasting the whole place to bits.

Just for the sake of discussion, though, let's assume it's the only possible way, and your intel is 99.9% reliable... yeah. I'd really hate to be the one making the decision, but I'd not call it a crime, I'm not Rorschach who makes no compromises in the face of armageddon...

The big difference here of course is that we're talking about colateral damage in order to prevent a catastrophe. In the original scenario, the damage is done and you can only suffer further by lashing out at anyone that *might* have had something to do with it.

 

[garyw]

That's what I mean. It's really easy to set an absolute (e.g. 'no matter what he did, killing the family is a crime') when reality can throw curves at you which require you to re-evaluate. It's also why people as a whole need to be careful when reading news stories. The whole truth is never in there.

 

[jedidia]

reality can throw curves at you which require you to re-evaluate.

Oh, I'm all in for evaluating each situation individually. I don't really believe much in "universaly aplicable principles". But I also don't believe in emotional solutions that don't make things better. Grief has to (and can) find other outlets than revenge.