News Radical New Copyright Law

jedidia

shoemaker without legs
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
10,891
Reaction score
2,141
Points
203
Location
between the planets
The thing is that people who pirate software probably wouldn't buy it in the first place anyways, at least in my opinion.

The thing is, most are not even able to. After some time in bosnia, I realized that piratery in the west is a somewhat marginal problem. In bosnia, provided I have the money (which most people don't) and want to buy a particular CD, I might as well go on a quest for the holy grail! There are allmost NO originals to buy in the first place! Allmost every store sells pirates. You go to an officially registered DVD-rental and you rent - guess what - a pirate. There's no bloody originals anywhere! And I have yet to find an online distribution that ships to a country where the probability that the never gets paid is pretty high (or that the shipement gets lost somewhere). And Bosnia has not seen the worst of it.

This made me thinking: as long as prices for developing countries are not adjusted, people there will be forced to use pirates. Because first, noone can afford the originals, and second, the originals are not even sold because noone could afford to buy them.
 

cjp

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
856
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
West coast of Eurasia
This made me thinking: as long as prices for developing countries are not adjusted, people there will be forced to use pirates. Because first, noone can afford the originals, and second, the originals are not even sold because noone could afford to buy them.

I'm sure many software companies would like to lower their prices in developing countries. You see: their price is based on maximizing profit, and if lowering the price with a factor 2 gives a number of sales increase of more than a factor 2, a lower price gives a higher total profit. For normal products, the equation would also include increased total production costs, but for information this factor is practically absent.

The problem is that it also attracts buyers from richer countries. In a global free-trade market, you can not have different prices at different locations. Especially not for things that are so easy to transport as information.

So you're either left with trade restrictions and very restrictive licenses and nasty DRM features (like the zone checking on DVDs), or you have to accept piracy as a fact of life, and see it as a partial failure of the copyright system.

And I don't think it's just a developing country problem. When I was in high school, everybody was exchanging CD-ROMs with the latest games. If we had to buy all of them, we would never have been able to have the same amount of fun as we did, because the official prices were simply too high for that.
 

ar81

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
2,350
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Location
Costa Rica
Website
www.orbithangar.com
I learned a lot about how piracy works at university...
When I was in university I made a software in BASIC that automated Klee algorithm.
It was a time when people used AT-80286.

The software I made was very useful, and a must to pass a course, unless you wanted to deal with an old pirated software in french that required XT-8088 and a version of DOS that was hard to find. If you had that pirated software, you might have to enter data and if you made a mistake you needed to reboot. As you ran it to process data it usually took 30 minutes of black screen until you could see any signs of life, unless it gets stuck...

My software instead had some more user friendly features by that time.

When I created that software for the course, the professor had some preference for another student who also made a software. His software looked neat, but mine was easier. This professor remarked the effort he made, while my software was seen as an outcast.

After that, he sold better because he was backed by the professor. But mine was more user friendly and very affordable. Its cost was a bout the price of one lunch for students with tight budget.

The next semester my software sold pretty well. I was able to afford my lunch and materials with that software. There was no piracy since people knew that it was the product of my effort, and they knew they were supporting a guy who is not rich.

As time passed I lost interest and I started to see my software pirated as it was harder for customers to locate me.

So I learned that there are some factors involved:
1.Price - affordability
2.Availability
3.Will to support the effort of a developer who is not rich

Most of RIAA and MPAA products do not have any of those three.
Third world usually have people with less buying power.
So some bargains in US end up being too expensive here.
People think that if you have the money to pay lawyers to hunt customers, you are rich.
And for most of the originals I have, I have had to either import them on my own, or walk a lot to find a certain product, only to find that it costs 2X the price in US, while buying power here is about half of US.

Stores in this country use to provide credit to people whe you buy stuff. Music and movie industry do not do that, so customers need to have good liquidity to buy their products. RIAA/MPAA strategies had been wrong for years and with every move, they screw themselves. I am not sure they can recover by now.

I have heard of severe payroll cuts in local record industry.
On top of that, record industry had been paying radio stations to broadcast their music, instead of allowing radio stations to pay royalties.
It causes national artists to be forced to pay radio stations to broadcast their music too. So you work as artist, and you need to pay them, instead of having your royalties. And you must pay about $1600, while a minimum wage for a non qualified worker is about $160 a month. So if you publish a small CD edition, you have losses.
This kind of corruption scheme was denounced by current Ministro de Educación, Leonardo Garnier as the payola scandal.
It was clearly an antitrust practice. And what they got was that radio stations do not appreciate the value of intellectual property. Today it is too late.

Record industry here are crywolves.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,664
Reaction score
2,384
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
I
And I don't think it's just a developing country problem. When I was in high school, everybody was exchanging CD-ROMs with the latest games. If we had to buy all of them, we would never have been able to have the same amount of fun as we did, because the official prices were simply too high for that.

Yeah, but you also know the difference between the bulk of the games and the really good games: If it was good, you bought it. You did not buy a game, because the limited demo convinced you (as all demos had been so limited, that you can't even tell how good the final product is), but because a friend pirated it to you.

I know that I have quite many old games for my Atari ST in two versions: Pirated (I call these pre-emptive backup), and original.

I have bought the whole Civilization IV line in original and that not because I was not able to get it pirated - but because I was a happy customer of the civilization line since my early PC days and knew that the new version was worth the money.

I think, this is the key problem of the game industry. Only very few games reach a good enough level of quality, to be played more than once. And for only playing a game once, you don't want to pay 45 € for it.


Maybe some sort of internet cafe concept could be an alternative (I am sure, many schoolkids would pay relative much money for being able to play a good game on a good machine for an afternoon), but the license terms of the software industry make such marketing models impossible (was always like that, even with the old arcade boxes)... you can say, it is their own fault that piracy is filling a gap they created.
 

jedidia

shoemaker without legs
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
10,891
Reaction score
2,141
Points
203
Location
between the planets
Maybe some sort of internet cafe concept could be an alternative (I am sure, many schoolkids would pay relative much money for being able to play a good game on a good machine for an afternoon)

Yeah, you have these pretty often in Bosnia, and they're frequented very good. But I think it's majorly to the fact that only few people in bosnia can afford state of the art hardware, if any computer at all (They usually buy them on credit, imagine that!) Anyways, without pirates all the hardware sellers would go down the drain too, leading to a very low-tech society that will never be able to recover due to lack of know-how. So, all in all, pirates in developing countries play a not to insignificant role in the whole economy.

Also because not only games get pirated. I have yet to see a computer in bosnia that runs on a legal windows-licence... :p
 

ar81

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
2,350
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Location
Costa Rica
Website
www.orbithangar.com
During the time DOS existed, piracy of games made many people to wish PC over PS/2 or Mac and I presume it has some impact on hardware preference here. If it happened elsewhere, then I could see how Microsoft gained a market share.

But now computer games scarse, as they moved to consoles.
So my bet is that Microsoft could be digging its own grave by not helping game developers for PC.

Microsoft wants cloud computing, and bandwidth here is quite narrow compared to any developed country. I just can imagine that it will not only consume all the processing power, but also all the bandwidth.

In my case, piracy served as demo. I recall I got a pirated copy of "Final Fantasy The spirits within" and I liked so much that I bought it on DVD.

There was a mecha combat game called Starsiege, which I bought mainly because of the artistic compendium manual, because at the time I did not have a 3D accelerator.

And I have almost all space games I could find in original versions. There were some that I could not find, so those remained pirate. Call me old fashioned, but I love to have a printed high quality manual. And also I like to support developers. I know how hard it is to develop.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,664
Reaction score
2,384
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
There is a nice little decision from the German Federal Court, about the use of samples in popular music: It is in general illegal now, unless you have the explicit permission of the copyright owner of the piece you sample. The only loophole: You have to show that you are incapable of playing the instruments, you sample, yourself.

I already knew that bad hip hop artists are often incapable of everything, but this is now really cynical.


-----Post Added-----


In this case, the government would probably have to turn itself in. ANY government. :p

The government regulates stealing. ;)
 

tblaxland

O-F Administrator
Administrator
Addon Developer
Webmaster
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
7,320
Reaction score
25
Points
113
Location
Sydney, Australia
For those that want to stay upto date with K Rudd's wonderful new 'Net Filter

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24703318-29277,00.html

Basically the minority Senate seats won't pass it, so it is dead in the water...

For Now
Good news. Hopefully it will stay canned until at least the next election since I can't see the Greens changing their stance on this any time soon. A shift in the balance of power in the Senate at the next election may change things but hopefully they will have discovered their common sense by then.

The only loophole: You have to show that you are incapable of playing the instruments, you sample, yourself.
I would have no trouble doing that, they would beg me to stop the demonstration! :lol:
 

Tommy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
2,019
Reaction score
86
Points
48
Location
Here and now
IP laws, a good idea gone bad

Thought I'd add my two cents on IP laws, and the changes I think need to be made.

First, I'll explain a couple things about copyrights. I'm not a lawyer, but as a musician I've looked into this. There are a lot of misconceptions about how they work. For instance, the US government does not grant copyrights, it registers and recognizes them. When I write a song I own a copyright to it as soon as I perform it in front of other people, or record it - no government action is needed for me to create and own that copyright. If someone else records, plays a recording, or performs publicly my song I can sue them. Of course, I have to prove it belongs to me. That's why I register my copyright with the government, to provide court admissable evidence that I am the creator of that song. The same applies to written works, video, and other works of art. Patents are a little different, but not much. The USPTO (where you get patents, and register copyrights, etc,) does not check to see if there is prior art or any other reason to invalidate my copyright. Anyone with a problem can sue me, and the court will decide if my patent or copyright is valid.

There are several problems with the current laws regarding IP, and I'll list a few of them.

IP is considered "intangible" property and is not taxable the way land and equipment are. A company can own billions of dollars worth of IP and not pay a dime in property tax for it. I think IP should be subject to property tax, it will solve the problem of companies who exist only to hold IP rights for everything they can think of and whose only source of revenue is sueing people who infringe. It will also lower costs to companies who currently hold a lot of "defensive" patents. For instance, Microsoft hold a patent on the double click. This patent would fail in court due to prior art so MS has no intention of sueing anyone - they got the patent to prevent someone else from trying to sue them (and save themselves the court costs and inconvienience).

Copyrights originally lasted 20 years. This is plenty of time for the creator and publishing company to make a fair profit. If they don't it's because the work, or the business model, isn't good enough. After that 20 years the material enters the public domain. In fact, one of the reasons the patent and copyright laws were first enacted was to ensure that the material would be made available to the public domain, while ensuring a financial incentive to artists so they would create the works in the first place. Copyrights now last just about forever, and this defeats the purpose of what copyrights were intended to do. There's no good reason that Micky Mouse should still be owned by Disney, they've had more than enough time to profit under an exclusive license.

Fair use is being denied. Sony vs MGM (IIRC) estabished the right to Fair Use. The record companies and movie studios are very specific about saying that when you purchase a CD or movie you are paying for a license to the contents, not the media it comes on. If that's truly the case, I should be able to make back-up copies for my own use instead of having to re-purchase the disc. I should be able to play it on any device (DRM usually violates Fair Use). I'm primarily a Linux user, and since no "official" CSS descrambler exists for Linux I have to violate the DMCA by using de-CSS if I want to watch a legally purchased DVD. That's just wrong - I paid for the license, the right to watch that movie.

Don't count on things getting better under Obama. He's got many bigger issues to concern him, so this my be left up to his Vice President. VP-elect Joe Biden has a long history of catering to the RIAA and MPAA (and is also against any enforcing of net neutrality).

I'm not trying to say that filesharing is good, or right, or moral. But it's not always as evil as the RIAA makes it seem. Record sales went up quite a bit when Napster hit the scene, and dropped of when it was shut down. People like to try before they buy. Metallica owes it's fame and fortune to primative file sharing via snail mail. Some one would see them, like it, and buy a cassette. Then they would mail copies to friends in other towns and states giving Metallica exposure in areas they wouldn't have otherwise since they couldn't get air time on the radio, and their minor label didn't have the money for a large nationwide ad campaign. That increased fan base, spread out across the country, is what attracted the attention of MTV and the major labels. Sadly, Metallica seems to have forgotten where they came from, how they got to where they are, and now support the RIAA and whine about piracy. Biting the hands that fed them.

Radiohead has taken a new approach by making their music available for free. It's not shared as often on the filesharing networks since you can get it legally for free from Radiohead's website. That means more visits to the website and dramatically increased merchandise marketing opportunities. It's never been easy for an artist to make money on album sales. The label, producer, engineer, etc, each get much larger cuts than the band does. Touring has become so expensive it's hard to make any money without charging outrageous prices (and thus reducing attendance). Bands can make far more money on T-Shirts than they can on music, and Radiohead has given people a reason to come to their website and maybe buy something while they download the music for free.

If you really want to see a viable business model for selling content online, check out the way the porno companies do it. They've always been early adopters. Jumped onto selling videotapes while the mainstream studios were saying there's no money in it. Same thing with the internet. MGM can't figure out how to make money on downloaded content, but the porno companies are getting fat from it.

Again, that's not to encourage people to fileshare. The content creator should have the right to use the distribution model of their choice.

Orbiter would be silent if Dan couldn't make a living from FSPassengers. If he had to have a full time job to support himself he wouldn't have had the time to create Orbitsound, UMMU, and the DG-IV, and give them to us for free.

In summary - IP rights are essential, but the laws governing them are counter productive, ineffective, and now harm the general public they were created to protect.
 

tblaxland

O-F Administrator
Administrator
Addon Developer
Webmaster
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
7,320
Reaction score
25
Points
113
Location
Sydney, Australia
If you really want to see a viable business model for selling content online, check out the way the porno companies do it. They've always been early adopters. Jumped onto selling videotapes while the mainstream studios were saying there's no money in it. Same thing with the internet. MGM can't figure out how to make money on downloaded content, but the porno companies are getting fat from it.
...
Orbiter would be silent if Dan couldn't make a living from FSPassengers. If he had to have a full time job to support himself he wouldn't have had the time to create Orbitsound, UMMU, and the DG-IV, and give them to us for free.
How do porno companies make money from downloaded content (its not something I have a lot of experience with ;))? How would that apply to someone (eg, Dan) who wants to sell an information product (movie, music, software, etc)?
 

Tommy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
2,019
Reaction score
86
Points
48
Location
Here and now
A subscription based business model seems to work well if you can keep supplying more content. This would work for media (TV, movies, music) providers. It could be either unlimited downloads, or limited.

That gets more difficult for software, but it's possible if your software gets updated often, or you create a steady stream of add-ons. For less productive devs, those whose add-ons take months to create, a co-op may work. For instance, people who create planes and airports for FS could band together. That way a steady stream of new product is available to keep people paying. Revenues would be divided based on popularity so a low quality hack doesn't get as much as a high quality pro since his add-ons would get downloaded less.

One key is making it as easy as possible for people to pay. Porno sites accept all the credit cards, Paypal, e-checks, checks ia snailmail, etc. If people can't easily pay for your product, they will be much more likely to pirate it. For instance, if you only accept American Express, and they only have Visa.

The other key is to maintain a very professional looking website. People will think your product is more valuable. Many people will view a poor site as a sign that you are an amatuer, and not deserving to be paid.

You can't prevent piracy. You can only minimise it by making it easy and desirable to purchase your product. Any other bars to easy pirating may be used as well. Any executable can have a serial number embedded in it. Require users to register their software before they can get updates or support, and have them create a password. Anyone sharing the software will have to pass along the serial number and password. Keep an eye on the various sharing networks, and if you see your software find out which particular copy is being shared. Also, you can watch for one particulr copy which logs in frequently from internet addresses in distant geographical locations. If a copy logs in from a Michigan address, then logs in again an hour later from Botswana, that should be a clue. Then you can disable updates and support for that copy. Clearly state this policy on your site, and when the "please register" dialog opens up the first time someone uses the software. It doesn't hamper a legitimate customer, he can make back-ups and install it on multiple machines he owns without being banned. Fair use is maintained.

How much you can reduce piracy depends on how much effort you're willing to make.

And I'll bet quite a few of us would by Orbiter T-Shirts or caps if Martin sold them. Or XR-2 patches if Doug sold them. Hard to pirate merchandise over Limewire.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,664
Reaction score
2,384
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
How do porno companies make money from downloaded content (its not something I have a lot of experience with ;))? How would that apply to someone (eg, Dan) who wants to sell an information product (movie, music, software, etc)?

They send you a bill before you even visited their site. ;)

Basically, the internet currently ruins all porn companies more as the music industry, as these can't just go on world tour.
 
Top