News Radical New Copyright Law

GregBurch

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Because once Bush is gone it's going to be all milk and honey, right? Introduce yourself to reality, please.

I sincerely hope you aren't expecting any sort of change in this kind of sentiment once The One takes power and doesn't immediately lead us to the promised land. Any impediment he faces in bringing about utopia will be the fault of Bush. Bush will continue to be available as the cause of all problems in the world for generations to come.
 

Urwumpe

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"That one" will sure get the same fate as all demigods. Demigods are cut into very tiny stripes and thrown into the trash (pen and paper RPG humor).

But honestly, the worst thing Obama could do, is nothing at all. I personally don't expect much more from him as the needed small earthquake in the political scene in the USA to make the republican party finally become a bit more social and the democrats a bit less complex. ;)
 

to be

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Nope. I don't pirate stuff, I don't own a single mp3 that I didn't pay for or download as a sample freely given away. (At least not yet, anyway, I'm no angel.) I don't understand why you think you are entitled to download stuff somebody else spent lots of time and money working on.

I agree that the record companies go too far when they say any copying is illegal, since when I grew up it was understood that as long as you weren't reselling it, copying records was fine, so you could listen to them on your tape player, etc.

In the current day, making exact copies of stuff has become so easy that the traditional legal framework concerning IP is no longer valid. But that's no excuse to throw out the entire idea of making sure people get paid for the work they do.

It is somewhat ridiculous, mostly because there are so many people blatantly abusing the ability to copy digital media, that it makes all copying seem bad. I should be able to copy software as a backup, etc. You bought the right to use that media, and should be able to copy it, so long as it is only to further your ability to use it. (and by you I mean you, not you and your 100 closest friends / employees)

The idea of intellectual property isn't unsound . For example: patents. Lets say someone designs some sort of great new invention. Now, great new inventions are good, they increase the standard of living, and are something we want to encourage. In capitalist societies, we encourage things by making them profitable, providing a reward for good behavior. If once you come up with it, someone else can run away with the idea, what is the incentive?
 

Hielor

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steal_this_comic.png
 

Kaito

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haha, so true

And, about the "milk and honey" thing:
I'm 16 right now. Bush is the only president i've really been around to know, so I really don't know what to expect with the next one.
 

tl8

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I heard you people in Australia now have this filter on the internet that censors out everything your government doen't like...

Haven't heard that one.
China has something like that though.
 

Linguofreak

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This is a good link: http://projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html#consequences

It's talking about the unintended consequences that can result from certain common sci-fi physics violations, but it illustrates very nicely in terms of a hypothetical situation in the physical world what computers have done with information.

What if the utility of the software is such that it isn't worth the cost of developing it to a single person, but it would be worth it to aggregate the demand from lots of potential users?

In other words, it will cost millions of dollars to develop a piece of software that is worth only a few hundred dollars to any one individual. The only way to support the expense of developing the software is to be able to sell it to lots of users. But if the software can be freely copied, then the person who pays for its development can't recoup her costs, much less make a profit.

This seems like such a simple and obvious question that I know I must be missing something, since those who oppose the existence of IP are so passionate. There must be something i'm missing at a very basic level.

The problem is the way that the supply and demand curves for information are skewed because of the existence of the computer and the internet. The cost of production for the software developer is pretty much invariant with quantity sold because copying software is so danged easy. The supply curve is a vertical line at the development cost. The intrinsic value of a copy of software is practically nil. Practically all of the cost is labor. The more copies are sold, the less each copy is worth. So as the number of copies sold goes to infinity, the value of each copy goes to zero. And as soon as the developer sells one copy of the software, he has introduced a competitor into the market, one who only paid the box price for the software, and who can copy it for the same cost that the developer can, and who thus can make a profit on it by selling it for alot less. In fact, often just the goodwill he earns from the public by giving it out for free is worth more than the cash he could get by selling it, or the badwill he earns from the business community or government (small compared to the general public). Thus, anybody with a copy of the software can make out like a bandit (if "only" goodwill-wise) while massively undercutting the developer's price. And goodwill is actually quite a valuable commodity. Just being someone's friend can inspire them to help you in myriad ways. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that goodwill is far more valuable than money. So the pirate's supply curve is basically a vertical line on a supply/demand graph right at zero (monetary) cost. If goodwill gains are taken into account, it becomes a vertical line, (or even a line with cost decreasing as quantity increases), that lies very solidly in the negative-cost region of the graph. The demand curve, meanwhile takes a huge drop as soon as the cost goes above zero, and the only reason that demand doesn't drop all the way to zero is that a few customers are scrupulous enough to actually pay.

So the supply/demand curve gets shot to heck, and meanwhile the corporations sustain a massive goodwill loss in the eyes of the public, which tilts their own supply curve to falling cost with increasing quantity. The net result is a widening rift between the public and the corporations.

How is "removing the limits" different from delivering the key to the buyer of an automobile? I'm sure I must seem like a complete idiot for not getting this, since so many smart people treat this as such a simple problem.

Because the buyer of an automobile has an interest in keeping that key to himself so that nobody drives off with his car. He has an interest in limiting other people's use of it so that he gets to use it himself. But if only one car and key ever needs to be produced on the assembly line, and after that a new car and key can be made from any existing one simply by waving the key and saying "abracadabra," then the owner will not really feel any compulsion to keep the key to himself. If some total stranger asks for his car, he can just wave the key and say "abracadabra," and he will have gained the goodwill of the stranger at no cost to himself (except the negligible effort required to cast the duplication spell). It gets even worse if the car can be teleported to a new user at practically any distance with "alakazam." The car manufacturer will then have a vested interest in trying to figure out a way to copy keys, and in trying to maintain as much control of the keys that do exist as he can. He will also probably wish to restrict the public use of the words "abracadabra" and "alakazam" as much as he possibly can.

You grew up in the era when the cost in time and capital to duplicate any significant amount of intellectual property was fairly high. To copy a book, you had to buy a fair amount of emulsified tree, and then spend a great amount of time at a typewriter copying each copy of the book. Now, you just type it up on a computer, save it, upload it, and post a link to it. Now, to make a new copy, all anyone has to do is click on the link, and on any decent connection it will have been copied, with practically no effort on the part of the user, in a few minutes.

So here's an analogy for your generation: I own the rules to tic-tac-toe (The IP rights are an heirloom in my family. My 80-fold great grandfather spent a good hour thinking up the rules at age five). If you want to play tic-tac-toe, you have to buy a copy of the rules from me, for the low, low, bargain-basement price of 50 cents. That doesn't cost you much, does it? My anscestor spent an hour on it, so 50 cents doesn't even cover his labor costs at minimum wage, and I'm barely squeaking by on materials costs since I only make 48 cents profit per copy (paper and printer ink costs a bundle, doesn't it?). If somebody that has bought the rules wants to play tic-tac-toe with you, are you going to buy your own copy, or are you just going to use theirs, copy the rules into your brain, and then use that teach anybody else you want to play with that doesn't know the rules? A computer program, to a computer, is not really any different from a game of tic-tac-toe, just more complex. (Even to a human brain it isn't. We'd just have trouble remembering the whole ruleset and would take centuries to execute it with our brains).


EDIT: And I forgot about the effect that DRM has on demand. A hacked, DRM free piece of software is likely to be percieved as more valuable than a DRMed piece of software just because of reduced hassle and such, even by people who would never dream of copying software or otherwise obtaining it without paying for it. There are some who might actually go out and buy a CD for a piece of software and then go and download a hacked copy of it without DRM without ever putting the CD in their machine. That's why I tend to go with freeware: Low cost, hassle free, publicity is generally earned and not bought, so the stuff you manage to hear about is good, and no ethical dilemmas.
 
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GregBurch

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This is a good link: http://projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3al.html#consequences

It's talking about the unintended consequences that can result from certain common sci-fi physics violations, but it illustrates very nicely in terms of a hypothetical situation in the physical world what computers have done with information.

Thanks for the link -- and the lesson. Although I am ancient beyond the comprehension of most on the forum here, I'm actually familiar with the issue you describe. In an earlier epoch, I was intimately involved with some of the more far-ranging thinking about the legal and social consequences of the kind of nanotechnology -- molecular manufacturing -- first described by Eric Drexler in his book Engines of Creation. In fact, I was one of the original authors of the Foresight Institute's Guidelines for the Ethical Development of Nanotechnology. One of the essential features of this technology could be the reduction of material goods to information, in terms of the cost of production.

So, as dim as my old brain is, I have some primitive grasp of the economic consequences of nearly costless duplication. Having that, though, hasn't brought me any closer to an understanding of how to solve the issues that this capability raises.
 

Linguofreak

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So, as dim as my old brain is, I have some primitive grasp of the economic consequences of nearly costless duplication. Having that, though, hasn't brought me any closer to an understanding of how to solve the issues that this capability raises.

Nor has it on my end. Or on anybody's. Which is why the Wicked Proletarians see it as their right to make illegal copies and downloads, the Evil Capitalists see it as their right to foist all kinds of DRM on people and police all copying and downloading, and the rest of us sit scratching our heads wondering how to find a middle way.
 

GregBurch

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Nor has it on my end. Or on anybody's. Which is why the Wicked Proletarians see it as their right to make illegal copies and downloads, the Evil Capitalists see it as their right to foist all kinds of DRM on people and police all copying and downloading, and the rest of us sit scratching our heads wondering how to find a middle way.

When a problem stumps dim old farts like me and smart young rascals like you, it must be hard. But to read some of the things written by advocates among the "information wants to be free" folks, you might think it was a simple problem. This is why I wonder whether I've missed something -- they seem to be so sure and treat it as if it the answer is clear-cut and relatively simple, it makes me think I don't understand something very fundamental.
 

Hielor

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It's called buy a CD.

That thinking won't last forever. Let's say I live on the Moon. The cost of physically transporting the CDs to me vastly outstrips the cost of transferring it electronically (although the 3-second ping is annoying).

This is effectively discrimination against us Loonies. Normally I'd happily buy the music online, but the ridiculous DRM makes that an undesirable outcome.

So, my fellow Loonies and I pirate our music. Moreover, we feel somewhat safe in that the odds of the FBI showing up at our doors are rather low.
 

Linguofreak

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When a problem stumps dim old farts like me and smart young rascals like you, it must be hard. But to read some of the things written by advocates among the "information wants to be free" folks, you might think it was a simple problem. This is why I wonder whether I've missed something -- they seem to be so sure and treat it as if it the answer is clear-cut and relatively simple, it makes me think I don't understand something very fundamental.

I think part of it is simply fundamentaly different assumptions about ethics and morality. Assumptions that cannot be tested empirically. That's why on the one hand it's such a simple problem (once you've made the assumptions, it's fairly easy to empirically tailor a system to solve the problem in a way that returns an optimal solution given those assumptions), and on the other hand so intractible (if you only take empirical evidence, there's no way to establish any set of assumptions as superior, including the assumption that only empirical evidence should be taken. If you take other evidence, it's possible, but often very difficult).
 

cjp

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Haven't heard that one.
China has something like that though.

Yes, China has it. Whenever I was in China, I always used a VPN connection. Somehow, the connection was always broken after some minutes...

About Australia: read this.
Btw, Australia is not the only country where this kind of proposals exist. I think the danger of turning into a police state is very real these days, in any western nation...
 

Urwumpe

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We had the worse kind of censorship in Germany. A local german internet porn company sued the local providers for blocking all access to foreign pornography, because these sites rarely follow the German youth protection law (Another form of censorship). Of course, by blocking by IP or IP range, as demanded by the technically challenged court, the silent censorship (it came out when users reported it, no provider affected reported about that) there was collateral damage...

Finally, it was abusing youth protection laws for protectionist economy politics. And in later court decisions, illegal. But still, you have often preemptive censorship because of the law makers, who fail to understand the internet and thus try to make it more understandable for them by law. Instead of making clear rules, what is legal and what is not, they prefer soft criterias, which can apply to anything. And so, providers often remove stuff, which might be just slightly illegal. Which is almost everything on this planet.

And still not enough... EU politicians already try to impose another form of censorship. When a copyright owner thinks, you violate his IP, he should have the right to make the provider block your access to the internet without a judge deciding that you are actually guilty.

The old problem... when you making illegally distributing DVDs a crime, you make also other forms of copyright theft a crime. And that would damage the economy...
 

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Ah Felix Somm? That was fun. But quite a while ago...
 

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Solution is easy.
-Do not buy their products.
-Buy their products used in trade stores.
-Download non commercial free music from http://www.ctgmusic.com/ or http://www.ocremix.org/
-Encourage all your neighbors to educate their kids so they do not like their products so they are not in legal trouble because their kids download copyrighted material.
-Make your own music. No one can send you to jail if you show off with your friends about your creation.
-Look for freeware
 

tblaxland

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About Australia: read this.
Btw, Australia is not the only country where this kind of proposals exist. I think the danger of turning into a police state is very real these days, in any western nation...
Pretty scary. I think the original motivation behind this is more "nanny state" (bad enough) than "police state" though, but it seems the former has morphed into the latter. In other words, it is a popularist knee-jerk government reaction to satisfy people that are too incompetent to manage their own filtering. That incompetence was the cause of the failure of the previous government's $189m NetAlert scheme where they provided free PC based filters. If they are going to do filtering at the ISP level, there should be a true "opt out" option or even better, an "opt in" option. I do worry about the government filtering out "illegal content" for me. I think this article sums it up pretty well:
http://mashable.com/2008/02/20/australian-government-on-their-internet-filters-we-failed/
Let it be known, once and for all: if a smart, computer-savvy 16 year old wants porn, no technical barrier will be able to stop him. This is a natural law, similar to the laws of gravity or thermodynamics.
 

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"Let's suppose that there's one computer in the house, and one person uses it for downloads and one for homework. The whole computer goes," said Public Knowledge spokesman Art Brodsky.

Do they plan to sue the house? Or the computer?
The ironic thing is that if you do not like their products, you are saved.
They only hunt potential customers.
 
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