News Radical New Copyright Law

tblaxland

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The more I think about this, the more alarmed I am. From time to time, the filtering solution that I use for my kids (4 & 2) decides that my internet banking is "inappropriate". That is a fairly minor annoyance when I am controlling the filtering but what happens when control is in the hands of the ISP/government? Also, what about the impost on network latency and speed that I am currently paying good money for? How much performance loss am I going to get and yet still be paying the same money for? Its almost like a secret tax. I'm off to Electronic Frontiers Australia:
"Stop the Great Firewall of Australia"
http://nocleanfeed.com/takeaction.html
 

tl8

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I think I tend to agree...
 

ar81

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The more I think about this, the more alarmed I am.

Tell your kids about this.
Make them spend more time making usic than downloading it.

MUSIC MAKING KIT
How to make music for Orbiter
[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2741"]http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2741[/ame]
You will need
Music tracker software (Modplug Tracker)
http://lpchip.com/modplug/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=bb1c832bbf85e815d9baf58f19019349
Sound samples for Modplug tracker (you may rip samples from tracked songs made by other people there)
http://www.modarchive.com/
Orchestra instruments for Modplug tracker
http://193.125.152.109/pub/misc/sounds/samples/ft2/

Kraftwerk musicians did not like to listen crappy commercial music.
This is why they were so original.

You may tell your kids that if they like crappy commercial music, they become slaves of fashion and they can go to jail (or send you to jail) and destroy the family, if they download their crappy music.

If they make original music instead, they can enjoy expressing their feelings.
 

tblaxland

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Tell your kids about this
...
MUSIC MAKING KIT
...
:cheers: Not just my kids, but myself also. I used to have some software very similar to ModPlug Tracker when I was at uni ('93-'96 - EDIT: found the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Tracker) and I've often thought about getting back into it. You have saved me the effort of looking, so thank you. It was the only way I could play/create music because I am hopelessly unable to keep a beat. My kids already love creating music (drums, triangle, recorder, etc) but at their age they have not yet discovered melody ;)
 
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Zatnikitelman

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Just to toss out an example of how wacked this has gotten, I saw on Digg today that a site was removed by its hosting provider because it infringed on music copyrights. Here's the kicker: the site was playing its OWN record label!
 

cjp

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The ironic thing is that if you do not like their products, you are saved.
They only hunt potential customers.

That's one of the weird results: producers and consumers have become enemies. Producers don't trust consumers (as every consumer can become a lethal kind of competitor), so they put DRM on their products. Consumers don't accept the validity of the high prize they need to pay for something that has effectively zero-production-cost, and are severely restricted in their freedom: legally (by IP-law) and physically (through DRM).

The economics of information is characterized by almost zero production costs, so the development costs are the dominant cost factor. You can in a certain way say that the value of software decreases when there are more copies of it, but I think it's better to think of it as the cost per user that becomes less, as you spread out the development costs over a larger number of people. The value, in terms of usefulness, remains the same.

The main problem of not having an "intellectual property" system is: how to motivate people into doing development. Sometimes you don't need to take any measures for this: I think this is the case in software development, as is proven by the development of free software, and e.g. all the stuff made for free in the Orbiter community. You shouldn't over-estimate the costs involved in software development: often, it's quite doable for a passionate individual, or a small company, to do something significant. I (commercially) developed a simple CAD application, and I estimate the total development costs (my working hours) around 1000 euros. That's around the costs of a single license of a typical CAD system! While our system is a lot more simple than, say, AutoCAD, it is actually quite powerful, and even if we only asked E100 per license, the costswould be compensated by only 10 licenses.

I believe software development can do without IP-law. Maybe you'd need some laws to force the release of non-obfuscated source code (just like food producers are obligated to list the ingredients), but that would be all. The question is how it will work out in other sectors.

The "music industry" is hit very hard by the effective absence of IP-law, and many people there are already changing their business plan, e.g. to get money from live performances instead of CDs. It will be very interesting to see whether they will be succesful or not. The big record labels are a thing of the past anyway, as the internet allows a much more direct connection between the artist and the fans. I think the whole point in music is not whether people are prepared to make good music, but it's whether they are financially capable of doing so full-time, without spending time on additional jobs. Most artists don't earn much, so they're already passionate enough about music even without being paid for it.

Movies are another story. You really do need a lot of money to make a high-quality movie. Maybe movie theater income is enough, but that would require some kind of IP-like restrictionson movie theaters.

I have serious doubts about the whole patent system. I'm currently studying patent law (an optional course at the university here), and while reading I really started thinking this isn't The Right Thing. Of course, it is a kind of fair to give the inventor a compensation for what he did, but the whole patent system gives a compensation that's related to the number of people using the invention, not to the amount of work that's gone into it. And what is worse: it restricts the freedom of others to play with technology, even for completely non-commercial purposes.

My alternative would be a kind of "value added tax" system. Whenever someone wants to use a certain piece of information for earning money (e.g. by selling a piece of software, by selling a product that implements a patent, producing products by using certain software or a patented process, live-performance of music or other works, selling music or movies), that person needs to give a certain percentage of the added value to the developer of the information. The actual percentage is defined by law, and no licenses are involved. The developer can not restrict the rights of anyone by license, as there are no licenses. Also, if someone does something entirely non-commercially, that person is completely unharmed by this system. After a certain amount of time after creation of the information, the obligation to pay is dropped, and the information becomes public domain. The developer can decide to drop the obligation sooner, or allow certain specific people to use the information without paying for it.

The normal mode of operation is that the "commercial salesman" finds out who he has to pay, and pays the compensation voluntarily. It would be the responsibility of the developer to identify people who violate this law. When someone is caught selling something without paying to the developer, while he knows he should, that person needs to give a compensation to the developer that largely exceeds the costs of voluntary paying.
 

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Typical Bush. This is some-what unfortunate.
You think this is all Bush's fault? The bill was authored by a democrat, Patrick Leahy. For the record, I see nothing inherently wrong with IP laws, though I do feel that DRM is often used as an excuse to restrict customers to using a particular company's brand of music players.
 

dbeachy1

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I believe software development can do without IP-law. Maybe you'd need some laws to force the release of non-obfuscated source code (just like food producers are obligated to list the ingredients), but that would be all. The question is how it will work out in other sectors.

While I agree that the new law goes way too far, the other extreme would be banning IP laws entirely: if that would happen, many software companies would go out of business for one absurdly simple reason: software developers need to make their house payments and put food on the table just like everyone else, so they need to get paid for their work. The only way they can be paid is if someone else pays for the work they produce. Very few users are going to purchase a given software product if they can legally download it over the Internet for free.

Let's take a concrete example that all of us can understand: DanSteph (the author of the excellent DGIII and DGIV) is a brilliant software developer who developed the popular FS Passengers add-on for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 (and at last report was working on a new version for FSX as well). Dan has a family to support and needs to make his house payment and put food on the table like everyone else. He has thousands of hours of hard work invested in creating FS Passengers, yet he sells each copy for a very modest price. Now let's say I purchase a copy of FS Passengers for $20 or so but then put it up on my Web page for free for anyone who wants it. Then let's say that 20,000 people download it for free over the course of a year. Assuming that only 10% of those people who downloaded FS Passengers for free would have otherwise been williing to pay the modest purchase price, DanSteph would have lost 2000 x $20 = $40,000 in software sales. Granted, what was "stolen" here was not tangible (it was just bits and bytes), but what costs money is the thousands of hours of work that DanSteph put into FS Passengers. We don't expect people who fix cars or grow corn to work for free, so why should we expect all software developers to do it?

To take it a step farther, let's say DanSteph is doing a promotion for his new FS Passengers release and he has set up a booth in the local software store where he is selling his new version for $20 per copy. Now I show up and set up a booth right next to his, except that I am giving away copies of his new software for free. How many sales would DanSteph make that day? How is it "OK" to take what someone else has spent thousands of hours of hard work creating and then giving it away for free? We don't expect farmers, doctors, and the guy behind the McDonald's counter to work for free, so why should software developers be any different?

Apologies to DanSteph for using his excellent FS Passengers product as an example, but IMO a concrete example hits closer to home.
 

cjp

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DanSteph would have lost 2000 x $20 = $40,000 in software sales.
The word "lost" in this sentence might suggest something that isn't there. Not earning something is not exactly the same as losing it, although the financial effect may be the same. The word "lost" suggests it already belonged to DanSteph.

We don't expect people who fix cars or grow corn to work for free, so why should we expect all software developers to do it?

I don't. Software developers also have to put food on the table, support a family etc.., but they don't necessarily have to do that in a company that depends on IP-law for its way of doing business. I can see some alternatives:

  • The programmer works for a company that makes something tangible, e.g. cars or airplanes. Tangible objects can't be copied, so this business model can still exist. It might just be that the company continuously needs new pieces of software that don't exist yet.
  • The programmer works for a service-delivering company, which requires in-depth knowledge about the program. The service provided by the company could be partially exist of developing software, and partially helping people to use the software. Service can't be copied, and there will always be enough stupid people who need help.
  • The programmer works at a university or another industry/government-sponsored institute for developing new software. Maybe he/she is a student, developing things as an assignment.
  • The programmer has work that is completely unrelated to software development, but spends some of his/her spare time on it, e.g. to learn, or to gain respect from others, just for fun, or whatever. DanSteph's Orbiter add-ons are all free, right? Why would he do that?
How is it "OK" to take what someone else has spent thousands of hours of hard work creating and then giving it away for free?

It's OK if the programmer knows these conditions in advance of doing the work. He can always decide not to do the work if he decides he doesn't want to do it for free, or if he needs to use his time on work that will give him food on the table. If he still does the work, we can expect him to agree to these conditions.

...but IMO a concrete example hits closer to home.
True...
Only I don't know much about DanSteph (except that he made some amazing add-ons). But it still feels closer to home than the abstract idea of a programmer.
 

Messierhunter

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The word "lost" in this sentence might suggest something that isn't there.
It's there, as stated we're assuming a modest 10% of the thieves would have bought the software legally had they not found it for download. Are you suggesting that even 10% of these people didn't have the $20?
Not earning something is not exactly the same as losing it, although the financial effect may be the same. The word "lost" suggests it already belonged to DanSteph.
He earned it by making a good that others want, the right to the money in exchange for the product DID belong to Dan. He DID lose the money that would have been given to him by the 10% who would have otherwise purchased it legally.
  • The programmer works for a company that makes something tangible, e.g. cars or airplanes. Tangible objects can't be copied, so this business model can still exist. It might just be that the company continuously needs new pieces of software that don't exist yet.
What is the profit motive in hiring the programmers to make this "software that doesn't exist yet"? If the software is used for the manufacture of new cars or airplanes, it's probably not going to be of any use or value to anyone else anyway, and anyone who could use it is probably a competitor who also makes cars and airplanes. If they want that software they should be forced to pay the other company for it, they shouldn't get a free advantage from something they didn't create.

  • The programmer works for a service-delivering company, which requires in-depth knowledge about the program. The service provided by the company could be partially exist of developing software, and partially helping people to use the software. Service can't be copied, and there will always be enough stupid people who need help.
Great, so their profit motive is really to make the software as hard to use as possible so that people will buy the service. Wonderful.

  • The programmer works at a university or another industry/government-sponsored institute for developing new software. Maybe he/she is a student, developing things as an assignment.
In other words, taxpayer money pays for it. The people's software institute of the USA? Can't say I like the sound of that.

  • The programmer has work that is completely unrelated to software development, but spends some of his/her spare time on it, e.g. to learn, or to gain respect from others, just for fun, or whatever. DanSteph's Orbiter add-ons are all free, right? Why would he do that?
That is not a sound foundation for the entire software industry to run on, or even a portion of it. How would you like it if critical software updates and virus defintions took weeks or months to develop because the programmers were just doing it on their free time? The development cycle for ALL software would grind to a near halt and progress would slow to a crawl. Long development cycles for game and simulator modifications is acceptable because a) you're getting something for nothing b) the software is for a completely optional recreational hobby.
It's OK if the programmer knows these conditions in advance of doing the work. He can always decide not to do the work if he decides he doesn't want to do it for free, or if he needs to use his time on work that will give him food on the table. If he still does the work, we can expect him to agree to these conditions.
Then very little work is going to get done, especially compared to the kind of rapid and advanced software development we see today.
 

dbeachy1

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cjp said:
The word "lost" in this sentence might suggest something that isn't there. Not earning something is not exactly the same as losing it, although the financial effect may be the same. The word "lost" suggests it already belonged to DanSteph.

How would DanSteph's revenue for those 10% of downloaders not be "lost?" My booth is set up next to DanSteph's and I'm giving away his hard work for free. A potential customer walks up and sees a demo running on a computer in DanSteph's booth. He exclaims, "Hey, this is cool!!! I want it!" Then he sees that he can either pay DanSteph $20 to get a copy, or he can legally get a copy from me for free. Which do you think he will choose? It is true that not everyone who took a free copy would have been willing to pay $20 for a copy, but there is some fraction of those customers who would have paid $20 to purchase a copy. That is revenue that DanSteph would have made had I not been giving his product away for free. So we can call it what we want, but at the end of the day DanSteph is still not making money for his hard work.

To extend the example: you go into a store. One shelf has FS Passengers for $20. The second shelf right beside it has FS Passengers for free. Which box is the customer going to walk out with? If this happened in every store, DanSteph would not make one cent for all his hard work, and so he would have to quit writing FS Passegers and get some other job. And in any case, just because "only a fraction of total sales is lost" by me giving DanSteph's software away, it is still taking sales away from him.

cjp said:
Software developers also have to put food on the table, support a family etc.., but they don't necessarily have to do that in a company that depends on IP-law for its way of doing business. I can see some alternatives:
...snip...

What you are describing is a valid business model (the open-source model), where software companies make money only on the support of the software. That works for some applications, but certainly not all. Let's take video games: it takes hundreds of thousands (and sometimes millions) of dollars to produce a new Xbox 360 video game, which is sold for $60. Giving away the game for free and trying to sell "support" for the video game would never work: the company would never recoup its development costs. It's the same way for DanSteph's FS Passengers: giving entertainment software away for free is not a viable business model.

For business software, however, much of the long-term money is made via maintenance costs (for commercial apps it is typically 10-20% of the purchase price annually), which is why the open-source model can work in the commerical market depending on the application (Red Hat Linux is a good example). In a free market, if someone develops a good open-source product and sells support for it, it competes with payware software as well. And that's fine -- both business models have their place: each customer decides whether the additional cost of the payware product is worth it. However, legislating that all software companies must adopt the open-source model would kill many software companies (e.g., game software companies), and that wouldn't help anybody.
 

cjp

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How would DanSteph's revenue for those 10% of downloaders not be "lost?" My booth is set up next to DanSteph's and I'm giving away his hard work for free. A potential customer walks up and sees a demo running on a computer in DanSteph's booth. He exclaims, "Hey, this is cool!!! I want it!" Then he sees that he can either pay DanSteph $20 to get a copy, or he can legally get a copy from me for free. Which do you think he will choose?
Sure a potential customer will choose the free stuff. But you can't lose something you don't have! If I tried to sell bottles of air to people for $20 per bottle, and people refuse to buy them because they can get air for free outside my shop, can you say that I lost $20 per potential customer? Does this mean we need laws that disallow breathing air for free, to protect the people who sell air?

However, legislating that all software companies must adopt the open-source model would kill many software companies (e.g., game software companies), and that wouldn't help anybody.
That is a good point, if it's true.
You know, whenever I state some kind of opinion, I'm almost always open to think about alternatives. Whenever I ask a rhetorical question, feel free to answer it. Earlier in this thread, I asked whether there is a category of software where you can't find free software. Maybe you can find good free games, but if they are more like exceptions, then you may have a point.

BTW, I've spent thousands of hours on a free computer game called "Ultimate Stunts". The project is stalled at the moment as I have to graduate, but I will continue this project after graduating.

Finally: the ideas I posted here are quite radical, and mean a large change w.r.t. the existing situation. I don't think such changes should be made without a solid amount of thinking and discussing, and even then it's better to do things in small steps, and change direction when things turn out different than expected. However, I also think there's nothing wrong with brainstorming some wild ideas now and then, and the whole IP concept has such serious negative aspects that it's really worth thinking about alternatives.
 

dbeachy1

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Sure a potential customer will choose the free stuff. But you can't lose something you don't have! If I tried to sell bottles of air to people for $20 per bottle, and people refuse to buy them because they can get air for free outside my shop, can you say that I lost $20 per potential customer? Does this mean we need laws that disallow breathing air for free, to protect the people who sell air?

Comparing a popular software product that required thousands of hours of work to "air" is hardly valid. By that argument you are sayig that DanSteph should give FS Passengers away for free because "air is free." What does an "air is free" argument have to do with paying a software developer for his work? What makes a product valuable is the work (i.e., time and effort from human beings) that goes into it. It doesn't matter what the product is -- if customers want a product enough to pay someone else for it, then the product becomes valuable. Even compressed air in cans at the computer store that customers use to blow dust out of their computer equipment.

dbeachy1 said:
However, legislating that all software companies must adopt the open-source model would kill many software companies (e.g., game software companies), and that wouldn't help anybody.

That is a good point, if it's true.

I don't think many software developers would be willing to start working for free if Congress would pass a law like that -- software development is a job just like any other profession. I suppose we will just have to disagree on that.
 

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Basically if you allow anyone to copy any software for free then what a developer has to do is sell the software at the development cost+ per copy. Someone has to buy the first one, and put down, say, 80 million dollars for it. Of course, no one can afford that, so the people will no doubt form groups where they each pay about 60$ to get the software, and don't distribute it outside their own group. Wait, this sounds familiar....
 

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Comparing a popular software product that required thousands of hours of work to "air" is hardly valid.
There are differences, as in all analogies, but there is a similarity: for both, there is no physical restriction from letting everybody have it for free. The main difference is that air already exist, and there is a lot of software that does not yet exist, and it costs work to get it into existence. Maybe, in the very long run, when we've exhausted the ideas of what you can do with a computer, and all the software we think of already exists, software will be exactly like air.

And I don't mean it to be insulting. Try living without air. It's very valuable.

Maybe it all comes down to "who's gonna pay the development costs?". As soon as the software is there, it sounds fair to let everybody share the fun, as copying doesn't cost anything. But if that results in putting all the development costs on only a small group that is prepared to pay (e.g. companies that need the software most urgently, or programmers who like it as a hobby), that isn't really fair.

Traditionally, this kind of situations are government-controlled. There is a large common interest in the development of software, but people don't like to do lots of hard work while others enjoy without contributing. It's like people have a common interest in defending the country, but nobody's prepared to pay the entire army by themselves. Or people want good infrastructure. Et cetera.

Now I don't say all software development should be done by the government: definitely not! People should always have the freedom to develop their own technology. But the government could help by funding big important projects that lack sufficient private funding. They could hire private companies to do the work, like they do in infrastructure. They could do the same in e.g. movie production (in fact, if I'm not wrong, this movie subsidizing actually exists in the Netherlands), and games.

The nice thing is that you can make a "hybrid" of this system and the old IP-system. This also is already done partially by placing taxes on storage media to compensate "the industry" for piracy. The only problem is you risk paying twice for your products in this way. As piracy continues, maybe this will be the future.

BTW I repeat: don't over-estimate the development costs of software. I think that, at current prices, it's usually more than the price of one license, but less than a hundred licenses. Or I am a very efficient programmer...
 

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The thing is that people who pirate software probably wouldn't buy it in the first place anyways, at least in my opinion.
 

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BTW I repeat: don't over-estimate the development costs of software. I think that, at current prices, it's usually more than the price of one license, but less than a hundred licenses. Or I am a very efficient programmer...
OK, let's pull out an envelope... ($AU below)

Software license: $100
100 licenses: $100 x $100 = $10,000
Labour rate: $75
Hours for developing: $10,000/75 = 133hrs/~3.5 weeks

I'm not sure I could develop a very good application in 3.5 weeks of full time work, but then maybe I am very inefficient. I pretty sure Doug, Dan, et al, have spent thousands of hours on their addons and I doubt that they are slow.
 

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-grdpKVqg&feature=related"]YouTube - "Weird Al" Yankovic - Don't Download This Song[/ame]
 

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:cheers: Not just my kids, but myself also. I used to have some software very similar to ModPlug Tracker when I was at uni ('93-'96 - EDIT: found the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Tracker) and I've often thought about getting back into it. You have saved me the effort of looking, so thank you. It was the only way I could play/create music because I am hopelessly unable to keep a beat. My kids already love creating music (drums, triangle, recorder, etc) but at their age they have not yet discovered melody ;)

My experience with a workshop for kids using Modplug Tracker is that music made by kids is mostly experimental.
What we call melody is indeed lack of dissonance, which requires to learn basic rules of chord construction.
However, dissonance is a relatively new western concept. Ancient music and ethnic music usually makes a good use of dissonance, and also, nature by itself is dissonant.

I think Modplug Tracker can read Fast Tracker modules, if I am correct.
So welcome to the world of music again...

That's one of the weird results: producers and consumers have become enemies. Producers don't trust consumers (as every consumer can become a lethal kind of competitor), so they put DRM on their products. Consumers don't accept the validity of the high prize they need to pay for something that has effectively zero-production-cost, and are severely restricted in their freedom: legally (by IP-law) and physically (through DRM).

Enemies... look at this site... http://www.boycott-riaa.com/
The only problem RIAA has is that a company can't live without customers. Hunting potential customers is bad policy if you ask me.

High prices and lack of adaptation skills is making them to fall.
Amazon.com makes software that is easy to use. Barnes & Noble use conventional logistics. Their old model of business have not adapted to new technologies, or even to the needs of customers. If you want to make business in the old way, invent a time travel machine and go to the past, or you will be forced to change the way you do business.

For record industry it is a easy as charging people with cheap prices for a download. The problem of that is that most of songs in a record are crap.

Making business is about delivering value to customers. Record industry is not doing that.

The "music industry" is hit very hard by the effective absence of IP-law, and many people there are already changing their business plan, e.g. to get money from live performances instead of CDs. It will be very interesting to see whether they will be succesful or not. The big record labels are a thing of the past anyway, as the internet allows a much more direct connection between the artist and the fans. I think the whole point in music is not whether people are prepared to make good music, but it's whether they are financially capable of doing so full-time, without spending time on additional jobs. Most artists don't earn much, so they're already passionate enough about music even without being paid for it.

Having a musician playing live, has a cool factor that a CD player does not have.
I think it would be cool if we go back to the age of live playing.

Movies are another story. You really do need a lot of money to make a high-quality movie. Maybe movie theater income is enough, but that would require some kind of IP-like restrictionson movie theaters.

I see a future where people can make their own 3D movies with professional sound at home.
In 1980 it would have been unthinkable to imagine Orbiter when Activision released a cartridge with a Space Shuttle simulator. It would be unthinkable to think you could be able to make addons for it.

I think eventually software to make movies will also be accesible for homes in the future.

I have serious doubts about the whole patent system. I'm currently studying patent law (an optional course at the university here), and while reading I really started thinking this isn't The Right Thing. Of course, it is a kind of fair to give the inventor a compensation for what he did, but the whole patent system gives a compensation that's related to the number of people using the invention, not to the amount of work that's gone into it. And what is worse: it restricts the freedom of others to play with technology, even for completely non-commercial purposes.

There are companies that are like vultures and buy patents with the sole purpose of suing big companies that make use of patents. The bigger the company, the better for those vultures.

So patent system can harm business too.

So if we think patents can harm companies, and we think that such Bush regulation is government intervention on markets, it looks like we could think there is a socialist intervention of free markets with such a law... Bush would be protecting music and movie industry, but he will harm hi-tech industry.

The thing is that people who pirate software probably wouldn't buy it in the first place anyways, at least in my opinion.

I share that opinion.
 

Messierhunter

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Sure a potential customer will choose the free stuff. But you can't lose something you don't have! If I tried to sell bottles of air to people for $20 per bottle, and people refuse to buy them because they can get air for free outside my shop, can you say that I lost $20 per potential customer? Does this mean we need laws that disallow breathing air for free, to protect the people who sell air?
You didn't make air, you didn't design air, you have no claim to air. Now if you put some special formulation of gaseous molecules into the air bottle to make it special and unique (a unique scent, for example), then yes you might have a claim to the contents. Like with coke, you could patent the formula you came up with. If someone buys one of your bottles, figures out how to copy it, and proceeds to do so and distribute it to other people, then guess what? They violated your intellectual property right and should be forced to pay for that violation. You created the formulation, they had no right to replicate and distribute the end product of all of your work, even if they don't charge a dime for it - you have the right to make a profit off of your intellectual product free from competition by thieves.
 
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