Question SLS and the cancellation of Ares

agentgonzo

Grounded since '09
Addon Developer
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,649
Reaction score
4
Points
38
Location
Hampshire, UK
Website
orbiter.quorg.org
I haven't had much time to keep up with spaceflight news recently, but did catch the SLS news. It got me wondering.

What was the point of cancelling Arex-1 and Ares-5 only to then come up with the SLS a couple of years later that does largely the same job?
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
What was the point of cancelling Arex-1 and Ares-5 only to then come up with the SLS a couple of years later that does largely the same job?

Answer: A few congressmen like to spend the money of other people for their private interests.
 

N_Molson

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
9,290
Reaction score
3,258
Points
203
Location
Toulouse
Yeah, don't ask yourself too much such questions or you'll feel quickly depressed :rolleyes:
 

PhantomCruiser

Wanderer
Moderator
Tutorial Publisher
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
5,603
Reaction score
168
Points
153
Location
Cleveland
It seems like this is one of those things that makes perfect sense, so long as you don't think about it.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
From a purely technical standpoint;

Ares did not make sense. Maybe in its original form, it made some sense, but even then, there are many criticisms about the Exploration Systems Architecture Study.

But it soon deviated and evolved out of control. Ares I changed to the 5 segment SRB, and from a (dubiously possible) airstart SSME to the lower performance J-2X. It encountered issues relating to abort scenarios and vibrations and lift capability.

Ares V changed from SSMEs to RS-68 engines. Then its core was widened to ten meters. Then stretched, along with the SRBs, necessitating a '5.5 segment' SRB. Then it was discovered that the ablative nozzle of the RS-68 would not withstand the thermal environment between the SRBs...

All the while, everything kept along on the same course and did not deviate. Presumably the people involved were too proud of their idea to chuck it in the bin... or there were other political forces that made even a technically similar solution unpopular.

Eventually Constellation was cancelled, I believe as recommended by the Augustine commission, but not due to technical issues- rather due to unrealistic cost expectations.

Technically, SLS is more similar to the DIRECT concept proposed as an alternative to Ares, but is really just 'Ares V classic'. It does not do the same thing as the Ares rockets; it has lower payload-to-LEO capacity than Ares V, and higher payload-to-LEO capacity than Ares I (which did exactly the same job as existing vehicles and was sold only on dubious safety assertions).

So in a comparison to Ares as it ended up, SLS is better. But as a whole, its technical merit is debatable. Since it will have a low flight-rate, it will be at an economic disadvantage to smaller vehicles.

There are also alternatives that could provide heavier lift capability... such as ULA's "Atlas Phase II" and as a more remote possibility, SpaceX's "BFR" Falcon.

But politically, SLS is a complete and utter travesty. Instead of asking NASA to formulate mission plans and financial and chronological requirements, the Senate/Congress has mandated to build a vehicle with a 70-130 ton payload capability (which is just there because it implies SDLV), without any clear payload for it.

And on top of that they have demanded it be "Shuttle and Constellation derived", regardless of whether this would actually be helpful in a legitimate sense.

It does not help SLS's legitimacy that the politicians who have "fought" for it are senators of states that would be benefitted by such a program.

There is no study, there is no suggestion, and even if there was (somewhere), it is just a big mystery and we're not able to get our hands on it, pick through it, and scrutinize it. It is all just "studied" by the congressional rocket scientists...

SLS is sucking up billions of dollars in the next few years, and the only concrete mission is a meaningless Apollo 8 recreation. Without money for actual space exploration technologies, there will be no space exploration at all and a large launch vehicle will never grant it.

It is just so wrong, it is horrible.
 
Last edited:

Tychonaut

Underexpanded
Donator
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
96
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I haven't had much time to keep up with spaceflight news recently, but did catch the SLS news. It got me wondering.

What was the point of cancelling Arex-1 and Ares-5 only to then come up with the SLS a couple of years later that does largely the same job?
Obama, despite his years as a US Senator, somehow managed to not notice just how addicted to pork his colleagues were before he cancelled their Ares jobs-for-shuttle-contractors program. So they simply rebuilt it, writing new cheques to the same people.
I suppose the silver lining is that insane pogo stick the Ares I stayed dead.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
I suppose the silver lining is that insane pogo stick the Ares I stayed dead.

Wrong. It is just not built by tax payers money (alone).

liberty-rocket-atk-astrium.jpg
 

Tychonaut

Underexpanded
Donator
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
96
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Wrong. It is just not built by tax payers money (alone).

liberty-rocket-atk-astrium.jpg
Liberty has a completely different upper stage, and its production is not mandated by congress. It's just a fantasy rocket dreamed up by the hogs at ATK in the hope they can get a bigger slice of the pie. As they already have a pile of money coming to them through SLS, they might as well forget about this thing.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Liberty has a completely different upper stage, and its production is not mandated by congress. It's just a fantasy rocket dreamed up by the hogs at ATK in the hope they can get a bigger slice of the pie. As they already have a pile of money coming to them through SLS, they might as well forget about this thing.

LOL. It is NO fantasy anymore, it is going to be build - and congress could not do anything against it. Welcome to capitalism.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I really do wonder... if Liberty has more in common with the last version of Ares I, than the first version of Ares I, had with the last version of Ares I.

As far as I know, Liberty's first stage is virtually identical to that of Ares I.

The "Ares I" concept has been around since before ESAS. Liberty is just another extension of that concept... but this time, it's a concept that plays LEGO-rockets with Astrium. :facepalm:

they might as well forget about this thing.

We can only wish. :dry:

But hey, maybe it is a good thing. I actually love Liberty, it is far better than Ares I. At least, they are trying to peddle it as a commercial product.

That is a whole lot better than having the administrator of NASA stick to it at all costs, just because he loves the idea so much. :facepalm:

LOL. It is NO fantasy anymore, it is going to be build - and congress could not do anything against it. Welcome to capitalism.

Really? When? I thought the only thing going for it was an unfunded SAA...
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Really? When? I thought the only thing going for it was an unfunded SAA...

From NASA, not from EADS or ATK. Both have committed to the project and NASA is on board as long as NASA does not need to pay anything.
 

Tychonaut

Underexpanded
Donator
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
96
Reaction score
1
Points
0
LOL. It is NO fantasy anymore, it is going to be build - and congress could not do anything against it. Welcome to capitalism.
Congress doesn't need to do anything about it. With ULA already in the ring and SpaceX coming up fast, along with Astrium's existing rocket, and Russian and Chinese launch vehicles, this thing has no market. No market = no rocket. Unless you'd care to point to customers who have already signed up to fly payloads on it? Capitalism, indeed.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The only selling point for Liberty is its supposed reliability.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Congress doesn't need to do anything about it. With ULA already in the ring and SpaceX coming up fast, along with Astrium's existing rocket, and Russian and Chinese launch vehicles, this thing has no market. No market = no rocket. Unless you'd care to point to customers who have already signed up to fly payloads on it? Capitalism, indeed.

There is a big market waiting. Especially if the SLS fails as expected. ;)
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
There is a big market waiting. Especially if the SLS fails as expected.

What is this market for, rockets partially made in Utah? :dry:

There are existing vehicles that not only match Liberty's performance, they exceed it.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
What is this market for, rockets partially made in Utah? :dry:

There are existing vehicles that not only match Liberty's performance, they exceed it.

Betamax was also better than VHS. Guess which survived and which not.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Betamax was also better than VHS. Guess which survived and which not.

So, Liberty is better than the EELVs or Falcon rockets?

I have a hard time believing that.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
So, Liberty is better than the EELVs or Falcon rockets?

I have a hard time believing that.

No, it is not survival of the best, but survival of the fittest. VHS defeated Betamax simply by being far simpler and cheaper, despite it being of lower quality and with less features.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Yes, but is Liberty truely 'simpler and cheaper'?

They claim to be cheaper than the EELVs, but Falcon 9's advertised cost is $80-125 million and would have similar payload capability. Its costs would have to grow by nearly 50% to match those advertised for Liberty.

And if an Ares I-like setup of a solid first stage really is so advantageous, why do the EELVs, chosen to have an integral role for US national security, have liquid-fueled first stages?
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,627
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
And if an Ares I-like setup of a solid first stage really is so advantageous, why do the EELVs, chosen to have an integral role for US national security, have liquid-fueled first stages?

You are aware that you are talking strange things? Since when has a government decision have to be logical...
 
Top