SpaceX First Stage Propulsive landing Discussion

Urwumpe

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I don't hear Urwumpe or anyone else complaining about these other launches. I hear only that somehow SpaceX risks so horribly with this re-ignite post-separation.

Because they are designed and tested for this maneuver from day one. It is no piggy-back option shoved into the flight computer only months before launch.

And such multi-burn missions do also fail pretty often, especially the Russian ones. It is a very complex mission scenario, that you don't just do. You need a lot of testing before you can fly such a software. And the hardware also needs to be tested for it. You don't just turn around a rocket, this is also a new scenario with many new variables to be tested first, before you even consider flight testing.
 

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Space X seems to know what they are doing. Everything that is being brought up I am sure they are aware of, been told, and have taken it into consideration, and still have decided to try this.

Sometimes, you gotta be bold and take a risk or three. Testing is good and all, but eventually you gotta stop and actually go do it.
 

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Because they are designed and tested for this maneuver from day one. It is no piggy-back option shoved into the flight computer only months before launch.
So you claim that F9 1.1 was not designed and tested for this kind of reignition from day one. Interesting. Any basis or source for that?

And such multi-burn missions do also fail pretty often, especially the Russian ones.
I never heard of "during 5-th second of launch computer thought it is time to execute second orbital burn of thrid stage" kind of failure* - and this is only kind of failure that would endanger nominal mission in SpaceX scenario (reignition of 1st stage after separation).
Other kinds of failure does not affect payload in this case, so in fact this reignition is safer than any burn performed while payload is still up there.

*Only thing close to that was mentioned by yourself - that case 52 years ago.
 

Cosmic Penguin

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I don't know how it compares, but actually ULA also do experiments with rocket stages just used for launching satellites. On an earlier Atlas V flight with lots of margins (or even more than one, I can't remember exactly) they stirred the liquid hydrogen and oxygen in a used Centaur stage to test the properties of cryogenic propellant in orbit for studies of propellant depots in space.

However SpaceX is trying something bolder.....
 

Urwumpe

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So you claim that F9 1.1 was not designed and tested for this kind of reignition from day one. Interesting. Any basis or source for that?

Logical fallacy ahead. You demand that I proof that something I suggest is not. That is something we should better leave to the moon landing hoaxers and try the opposite: Positive proofs.

Do you have any source or basis, that it had been designed for this maneuver?

Before late March 2013, this was not the case.
 

Donamy

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Best not to show all your cards right away. :rolleyes:
 

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The art of gambling is to be able to bluff, and make them call.
 

Urwumpe

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The art of gambling is to be able to bluff, and make them call.

But you should never gamble with physics, because physics is able to have a royal flush in all four colours at the same time until its time to show the cards.
 

garyw

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So you claim that F9 1.1 was not designed and tested for this kind of reignition from day one. Interesting. Any basis or source for that?

I'd like to see a source for that as well especially as 'logical fallacy' doesn't cut it.

During COTS demo flight one the second stage was reignited sending it to 11,000km in altitude which suggests to me that SpaceX are interested in pushing the boundaries of what the craft can do and it may well be true that the first stage HAD no re ignition capability during the first launches but that doesn't mean that people weren't working on options in the background.

Elon Musk has fully admitted that they'll lose a few first stages before working out the best recovery technique (http://www.parabolicarc.com/2013/03/28/musk-spacex-to-attempt-falcon-9-first-stage-water-landing/) but the process makes sense, incremental tests and changes. The first stage has already been used to get the second stage into place so why not use it for some tests once it's nicely out of the way of the second stage? They've got nothing to lose and a lot to learn.

Do you have any source or basis, that it had been designed for this maneuver?

Well yes, Elon Musk has said so and as he is CEO and chief designer so that works for me.
 

Urwumpe

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... but that doesn't mean that people weren't working on options in the background...

You are again entering religious realms with that argumentation ("I have not seen God splitting the Red Sea, but that doesn't mean he can't do that").

How large is the R&D department of SpaceX? Today SpaceX has 3000 employees, if you assume a rather high upper limit, that 40% of these are in R&D (you also need people for building, flying and selling the stuff), that means 1200 engineers today (in the past it had been way less, 2005 SpaceX had only 130 employees after starting 2002 with 30 employees). More realistic for a company like SpaceX would be just 25% R&D.

Now look at the many known projects of SpaceX. You have the Falcon 9 1.1, the Dragon, the Falcon Heavy, the Grasshopper. These all also have ground segments as part of their system. The Merlin engine series is its own project there.

I estimate that SpaceX has about 30 major R&D programs running, and about one dozen R&D departments with around 6-8 teams grouped by subject (Means a team size of around 12-16 engineers at the high limit, which is not that large, a smaller R&D would have less teams, not smaller teams).

Now, I work in R&D, and I know what a team of engineers in that size with optimal tools can handle in a given time. It is a lot depending on the technological risk and how standardized the actual project is (Is it what you do every month, or something new, that you need to figure out), but not that much. Every bigger program at SpaceX will have just 3-4 teams assigned to it at the same time. (At the more realistic scale, just 2-3 teams)

There is not much capacity left for doing anything like you claim for further investigation of recovery options.

It is more likely, that the R&D had from the end of the last year capacity left (I would say, maybe as soon as November) and assigned teams to do a number of feasibility studies in that field. Maybe the Falcon 9 1.1 was getting developed faster than expected. Maybe the Falcon Heavy program was slowed down a bit. The number of R&D tasks is usually highest midway in development, and drops slowly shortly before flight testing begins.

Why exactly the capacity was then there, is something nobody outside SpaceX can really know now. What is known: One team was tasked with investigating the possibilities. Maybe more, but that should not be needed.

At the beginning of the year, they reported to the powers that be, presented their findings. And the powers had been impressed by the recovery test idea and decided to push ahead.

In March, when Musk annouced it, they had finished the early concept work for the modification. They had a test plan, an integration concept and the required software modifications by assistance from the Grasshopper team. They could say that there is a 95% chance that it will be ready for the launch date and only a low risk that it would fail the primary mission. If it would have been there sooner, Musk would have annouced it sooner. Musk is not known for keeping exciting things secret for long, he only has his lips sealed when it comes to failures: There he only talks as much as he really must do.

Today, they are busy integrating the whole extra package into the flight hardware. Guidance simulations are done, maybe they also do further tests for engine restarts in flight. Procedures are developed for the launch director team. All stuff that has to be done. SpaceX is not Armadillo Aerospace, which can afford a rather experimental atmosphere, SpaceX has investors sitting in its back.

It is no "uncontrolled hack" as it maybe suggests. But it is rapid accelerated R&D program. Maybe similar to the change of Apollo 8 from LEO test to lunar orbit, but at half the time.

Now tell me: Should I really prove you, that such a program did not exist and did not follow the realistic history, that I deducted? Or can you maybe accept, that SpaceX has limitations and can't research everything everytime.

And if you accept this, calling for evidence that something major was already in development, when SpaceX R&D department was just half of its current size is simply more logical, than calling for evidence, that such a program was already done at a time when there had been far less people and far more tasks to be done - and thus much less likely to exist at that point.

EDIT: And looking at the office space available at their two major R&D sites (Hawthorne & McGregor), it is doubtful that they would really have more than 750 engineers today. For 1200, they would need to stack them in the offices.
 
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garyw

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again from Elon Musk himself:

Musk detailed how SpaceX has been working toward a number of upgrades to both its Falcon 9 launch vehicle and its Dragon spacecraft.

For the Falcon 9, these include the addition of the new Merlin 1D engines—which will significantly increase the amount of weight the rocket would be able to send to orbit—recovering the first stage at first out at sea, and then having the first stage return to the landing site under its own power.

“These new upgrades will allow us to pack the Dragon spacecraft essentially full; it could raise the usable payload by several tons … this is also the version of the Falcon 9 where we will attempt to recover the first stage, although, as I’ve said before, I think it will take us several flights before we’re successful in that. I’m not sure it will be this flight where we are successful, but that is one of our aspirations as well as one of the key design goals of the new version of Falcon 9,” Musk said.

Source: http://www.americaspace.com/?p=33503

So it certainly seems to be something that has been in the heads of the SpaceX Falcon 9 R&D staff for sometime.

EDIT: And looking at the office space available at their two major R&D sites (Hawthorne & McGregor), it is doubtful that they would really have more than 750 engineers today. For 1200, they would need to stack them in the offices.

Hawthorne has room for 900 staff. 300 per floor.
 

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I think it's awesome that SpaceX is running to it's own beat here, tearing up the conservative rulebook.

They are rapidly developing a crew of steely-eyed missile men over there, and it makes the place a lot more interesting for us space aficionados.

Can't wait to see the trajectory details for this reentry to splashdown!
 

Urwumpe

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Hawthorne has room for 900 staff. 300 per floor.

Yes, but you also have to calculate that you can't use it all for R&D, you also need the usual stuff in every company - for example administration or accounting. And since Musk is from the IT world, like many other managers in SpaceX, you can be sure that he also has an IT-style application and facility management (Simply because it is the most effective way to manage such things).

I get to about 400-500 work places for R&D out of 2000 workplaces in total for Hawthorne. This includes also a number of workplaces in the factory level, since you need also workshops and test labs for R&D.

Also your article was from April 1st 2013... not before March 2013. That the grass hopper program should in the long run also get applied to other launcher programs is not new, but the decision to try this already in the Falcon 9 1.1 is.
 

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again from Elon Musk himself:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Musk detailed how SpaceX has been working toward a number of upgrades to both its Falcon 9 launch vehicle and its Dragon spacecraft.

For the Falcon 9, these include the addition of the new Merlin 1D engines—which will significantly increase the amount of weight the rocket would be able to send to orbit—recovering the first stage at first out at sea, and then having the first stage return to the landing site under its own power.

“These new upgrades will allow us to pack the Dragon spacecraft essentially full; it could raise the usable payload by several tons … this is also the version of the Falcon 9 where we will attempt to recover the first stage, although, as I’ve said before, I think it will take us several flights before we’re successful in that. I’m not sure it will be this flight where we are successful, but that is one of our aspirations as well as one of the key design goals of the new version of Falcon 9,” Musk said
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, how much fuel cost it to go return to the landing side somewhere on the cape? And because Elon stays by his idea to land on the land side with only the engines, how much cost the fuel of landing soft? And how much kg cost the landing stuff who are needed? And why will there so much focusing about a landing on a landing pad on the Cape, with the engines as the only thing who will do the soft landing? A soft splashdown on the sea near the Cape with parachutes on the first stage is a cheaper, better idea.
 

Urwumpe

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A soft splashdown on the sea near the Cape with parachutes on the first stage is a cheaper, better idea.

No, you don't want to land in the ocean. Saltwater is badly corrosive.
 

Alfastar

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No, you don't want to land in the ocean. Saltwater is badly corrosive.

Ah, how can I forget that! Silly of myself to miss that. But why the Shuttle solid boosters did then a soft-landing protocol to land in the water then?
 

garyw

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Well, how much fuel cost it to go return to the landing side somewhere on the cape?

To be determined. I don't expect it to be that much as the 1st stage will have shed most of it's weight.

And why will there so much focusing about a landing on a landing pad on the Cape, with the engines as the only thing who will do the soft landing? A soft splashdown on the sea near the Cape with parachutes on the first stage is a cheaper, better idea.

As urwumpe said, salt water will cause major damage to the engines, pipework, casing, etc.

Ah, how can I forget that! Silly of myself to miss that. But why the Shuttle solid boosters did then a soft-landing protocol to land in the water then?

It's fine for SRB's which are simple steel empty tubes when they hit the water but not for a liquid rocket.
 

Urwumpe

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It's fine for SRB's which are simple steel empty tubes when they hit the water but not for a liquid rocket.

Which still require some serious treatment before you can use them again. But the damage due to saltwater is less severe than the damage by containing a 2 minute long explosion of 500 tons of fuel.
 

Hlynkacg

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Frankly I find the whole argument kind of silly.

There is no risk what-so-ever associated with trying to soft land the 1st stage. The 2nd stage will already be on it's way to orbit.

As long as the payload reaches orbit SpaceX has nothing to loose by the attempt, and a substantial amount to gain. The 1st stage was going to be destroyed anyway so might as well try to get some useful telemetry out of it.
 
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