Discussion The Ultimate Chinese Space Discussion Thread!

[GoForPDI]

No, Tiangong 1 is a proper Salyut-style orbiting workshop.

It will be used as a baseline for the spacestation modules as well as being the baseline for a re-supply craft.

 

[T.Neo]

I guess we'll all be shocked when Beijing reveals that it is actually an orbiting, interplanetary space laser platform! :hunter:

 

[fsci123]

Seriously mate. The only reason the USSR and the USA put humans in space was because of the Cold War.

Look at your closest ally, the UK. We have done nothing in terms of space.

The People's Republic are taking it at a pace that suits them, they don't care too much for ignorant Sinophobic persons like yourself.

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

And also. the USSR's Salyut 1 was launched in 1971.

The PRC's Tiangong 1 is of similar size and will be launched just over 40 years since the launch of Salyut 1.

By 2020 they should have their first Mir-sized modular Space Station in orbit. And they also have a very good indigenous spacecraft at their disposal. It is far in advance of any of the USSR's or the USA's first capsules. Definitely.

And as I say. Europe have yet to put a man in space with their own equipment.

Does that make us super slow? No.

ESA has yet to launch any man into space but they launch sattelites at a consistent pace compared to china who dosnt launch sattelites at a decent fraction of the developed world...

China is in a desperate struggle they are attemptong compete with our glorious countries: USA, Russia, Japan, EU*, but they are so poor that they can never make it to the glory that we the devloped world have made for ourselves...

I'm not generalising Americans as a whole (Although upon second reading it sounds as if I am), but there are a few Americans who have such an ill-educated and down right ignorant attitude towards the PRC. I was a little fired up after the previous comments.

Well you have not only insulted me but called me illeducated which i take to the highest offense. I wil remind you that i am highly educated i am in AP classes i am highly involved in political affairs. I also sense that you are of orie origin and that maybe you have ancestry in china.

 

[GoForPDI]

They ''stole''?

STOLE?

They didn't steal, they used the best known design for an orbital capsule that was available. If they had used any other design, it would not have been as beneficial as the three-block Soyuz design is.

The PRC is also firmly part of the developed world. It is not the greatest ally of the west, we all know that, which perfectly explains the reason they do not launch as many commercial satellites into orbit. They do however have a capability that only two other countries in the world have: Putting Humans into space.

 

[fsci123]

They ''stole''?

STOLE?

They didn't steal, they used the best known design for an orbital capsule that was available. If they had used any other design, it would not have been as beneficial as the three-block Soyuz design is.

The PRC is also firmly part of the developed world. It is not the greatest ally of the west, we all know that, which perfectly explains the reason they do not launch as many commercial satellites into orbit. They do however have a capability that only two other countries in the world have: Putting Humans into space.

Well they could have used another design... I remember hearing that they bought a few rockets from USSR and retrofitted them and began to call them their own...

 

[Wishbone]

AFAIR Tiangong-1 is first of all a reconnaissance platform. I only hope they remember the lessons of Almaz and don't over stress the taikonauts.

 

[GoForPDI]

Well you have not only insulted me but called me illeducated which i take to the highest offense. I wil remind you that i am highly educated i am in AP classes i am highly involved in political affairs. I also sense that you are of orie origin and that maybe you have ancestry in china.

Well your initial post seemed to come from such a point of view. Although once again, I do regret using such words directly to yourself. I must remind myself to attack the post, not the poster in future. Sorry about that.

And no, I do not have ancestry from China or that part of the world, I am from purely North-West European (More specifically Scottish) origin. I am just of the opinion that the more countries that put people into space, the better! And there is no real reason (in my mind at least) to be so childishly critical of the Chinese.

 

[fireballs619]

Well you have not only insulted me but called me illeducated which i take to the highest offense. I wil remind you that i am highly educated i am in AP classes i am highly involved in political affairs. I also sense that you are of orie origin and that maybe you have ancestry in china.

Having the best education in the world doesn't make you an intellectual- opening your mind to new ideas and subjects which you would have dismissed previously makes you an intellectual. From all of the patriotic fervor about our 'glorious' nation you have posted, you have demonstrated that you are very closed minded indeed. I apologize if you take offense to that, but it is people with your attitude that are the biggest detriments to progress we face.

 

[T.Neo]

The PRC is also firmly part of the developed world. It is not the greatest ally of the west, we all know that, which perfectly explains the reason they do not launch as many commercial satellites into orbit. They do however have a capability that only two other countries in the world have: Putting Humans into space.

Wrong. The PRC is not 'firmly in the developed world', it is definitely better than many other places, in Africa or Asia for example, but it is a 'developing country'.

I am sure that in general, people in the US or Europe are better off than people in the PRC.

That doesn't mean they aren't very economically and politically powerful, of course. It also isn't a reason for sinophobia.

I think we must keep in mind the failings of China and where it needs to improve; again, that isn't a reason for sinophobia. Any more than noting the failings of the US is Ameriphobia (is that the correct term?)

And "putting a human in space" is not that special. Remember that not only does ESA most definitely have the capability to launch humans into space, if they wanted to badly enough, but they have also looked into manned vehicles in the past and are looking into future manned vehicles.

It could even be argued that Japan and India have the capability to at least launch Mercury or Gemini-like missions, for whatever reason would motivate them to do so.

And yes, China's flight-rate is pretty low, their development is pretty low. So what? Space is not a game, that you "win" or "lose". We are all exploring space as a global community. And if that means unity in diversity, then that can only be a good thing.

Maybe China will only make it to the Moon in 2075... 50 years before everyone else.

And finally, please stop with the sort of... US-jingoism. I know a lot of people here are American, I'm not. I appreciate the US, I have an affinity for US culture, and I respect patriotism towards the US.

But that sort of "AMERICA RULES!!!1!!!1!! THE USA BEST!1!!1!!1!! OTHER COUNTRIES SUCK AND THEY ARE EVIL!!1!11!!!" kind of thing, that is just impolite, annoying, and it does anything but actually be good and constructive for the US.

 

[Ark]

We might as well just ignore it for all the secrecy China is going to cover their space program with. Googling Shenzhou gets you nothing but illustrations, CGI renders, and launcher pics. It's like the Russians all over again.

 

[fsci123]

Having the best education in the world doesn't make you an intellectual- opening your mind to new ideas and subjects which you would have dismissed previously makes you an intellectual. From all of the patriotic fervor about our 'glorious' nation you have posted, you have demonstrated that you are very closed minded indeed. I apologize if you take offense to that, but it is people with your attitude that are the biggest detriments to progress we face.

Well number one im 13 of you havnt noticed.
Number two i am so proud that im american that i use propganda in typical conversation.
Number three my mind is open your just angry that i retain my opinion that China is not that excelling in space flight.

 

[garyw]

Well number one im 13 of you havnt noticed.
Number two i am so proud that im american that i use propganda in typical conversation.
Number three my mind is open your just angry that i retain my opinion that China is not that excelling in space flight.

Number 1 - No need to get angry. Debate will always involve people who disagree.

Number 2 - Propoganda is a terrible thing because it hides certain truths that are plain for all to see. I could say the UK is a wonderful country to live in but we all know that the UK, just like all other countries, has it's share of problems.

Number 3 - China are doing very well in spaceflight and have several projects going on right now. Don't count them out just because they are being quiet. Right now they are working on an agena like target vehicle for which to practise dockings.

 

[GoForPDI]

Not only is it a target vehicle, its a Salyut sized orbiting mini-workstation module, fit for three crew members to stay in. It will extend the usual Shenzhou mission to a couple of weeks rather than days, and will end up being the baseline for future space station modules and supply craft.

Here are some nice pictures:



---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

 

[fireballs619]

Well number one im 13 of you havnt noticed.
Number two i am so proud that im american that i use propganda in typical conversation.
Number three my mind is open your just angry that i retain my opinion that China is not that excelling in space flight.

Number 1: What's your age have to do with it? I fail to see why you brought that up...

Number 2: I, too, am proud to be an American. That doesn't mean I fervently proclaim our greatness, because the duty of any responsible citizen is to question their government, not mindlessly follow.

Number 3: You have yet to present one solid fact backed up by evidence as to why China's space program shouldn't be considered to be excelling. In a span of four years, they went from their first unmanned test of the Shenzhou to launching a man in it. That is great progress, and I cannot fathom why you think it isn't.

 

[andre]

fsi123: The fact that China is investing in space technology is actually a positive thing for the sector, even if in the very short term the advances are not so impressive.

Don´t be so small minded, things change very fast, specially if you have budget. Remember for example that in the 80s the japanese cars were considered a joke and nowdays they are very competitive. Who knows how China´s space program will be in 20 years from now?

 

[Victor_D]

From what I read, the Chinese are pursuing slow, deliberate approach to space. They are slowly building up experience and capability:

1999 - unmanned spacecraft launch
2003 - manned spaceflight
2007 - lunar probes
2008 - spacewalks
2011 - interplanetary probes
2011/12 - in-space docking/unmanned supply spacecraft
2011/12 - space outposts
2013 - lunar landing (unmanned, rovers)
2013/14 - heavier launch vehicles (LM-5)
2017 - lunar sample return
2019 - Mir-class space station

What's next? I say lunar landing in late 2020s or early 2030s followed by a construction of a permanent lunar outpost/base.

It appears that the Chinese are also aiming for long-term sustainability of their programmes. They don't seem to be developing things for one purpose only. For instance, their medium-heavy lift LM-5 rockets will serve their human spaceflight needs, defence requirements, and commercial satellite launch market.

Their human spaceflight programme seems to be motivated by their desire to show their technological prowess to the rest of the world as well as to generate public support for the ruling regime. If statements issued by Chinese officials are to be taken seriously, China does see the Moon as a place that could be economically exploited in the future, so they'll surely want to establish a foothold there to ensure they get their fair share.

I think the rate of progress of the Chinese space programme will accelerate in this decade, once the Wenchang spaceport is completed and the LM-5 becomes operational.

 

[T.Neo]

Number 3: You have yet to present one solid fact backed up by evidence as to why China's space program shouldn't be considered to be excelling. In a span of four years, they went from their first unmanned test of the Shenzhou to launching a man in it. That is great progress, and I cannot fathom why you think it isn't.

I think we need to define "great progress here". We certainly can't deny that China is making progress, but considering the progress of the US and Soviet programs during the 1960s, it probably isn't exceptional (even by modern standards).

So far, the PRC has managed about 0.6 manned flights per year.

Between 1961 and 1966, a similar period of time, the US had launched 6 Mercury and 10 Gemini flights, a rate of 3.2 flights per year. Between 1961 and 1966, the USSR launched 6 Vostok and 2 Voskhod missions, a rate of 1.6 flights per year (even though there were no missions in 1966, I kept it in there for consistency; in a 4-year period, that would be 2 flights per year).

It is also worth noting that this is starting practically right at the beginning of human spaceflight, so everything was pretty much being developed for the first time. In addition, multiple programs were being flown within this time period; Mercury to Gemini, Vostok to Voskhod, with Apollo and Soyuz not far behind.

Two years into its manned spaceflight program, the US had already flown as many people, on single-person vehicles, as have been flown till 2008 in Shenzhou vehicles.

It is also worth noting, however, that Shenzhou is more capable than all of the vehicles in the first era of manned spaceflight by the US and USSR, even Gemini.

If we take other periods in manned spaceflight, such as the first five years after STS-1, we have a rate of 5 flights per year. In the first five years after STS-51L, 8.8 missions per year, and in the first five years after STS-107, 1.2 missions per year.

If we take the first five years of Soyuz flights, we have an average of 2.2 flights per year, first five years of Mir, 2.6 flights per year, the first five years of Soyuz flights to the ISS, also 2.2 flights per year.

So the Chinese flight-rate has indeed been quite low, compared to US and Soviet rates at the beginning of the space age. Three missions are planned for 2012 though, so there is no reason to think that such low flight-rates will continue.

While China comes some 40 years late to the game of manned spaceflight, they have some 40 years of US and Russian experience to build on; information is available freely on the internet now, that a rocket scientist of 1950 could kill for.

Overall capability in space is not really determined by how long you have been flying, but rather by what funding, political attitudes, and program goals you have.

I think the low flight-rate that the Chinese space program has displayed, is understandable. China isn't trying to be the first to put a human into space, to build a space-station, or to go to the Moon. It is long beaten by others in that respect. But what China can do, is do those things, to say that it can. That China has put a man into space, and built a space station, and joined the "elite club", so to speak.

Is it a huge PR excersise? Of course. Is it propaganda? Of course. Is there anything wrong with it? Not really- the more spaceflights we have, the better, of course.

I do think we need to be realistic about the Chinese space program. What they're doing is important, but not exceptional. We'll wait to see if any exceptional endeavours come out of CNSA.

And of course, it is no reason to be sinophobic. It is also not a threat to the US or Russian space programs. Indeed, even the lack of a spacecraft is not the major threat to the US space program- the general way things are structured, that causes problems, is a far greater threat.

And we'll wait to see if that fate befalls CNSA as well...

EDIT:

What's next? I say lunar landing in late 2020s or early 2030s followed by a construction of a permanent lunar outpost/base.

And will this 'permanent lunar outpost' be constructed with Chinese Skylons or Chinese BDBs?

 

[Victor_D]

And will this 'permanent lunar outpost' be constructed with Chinese Skylons or Chinese BDBs?

BDBs

They could do it with LM-5 if they wanted to. I am not talking about large stations housing dozens of people, which is why I wrote outpost.

 

[GoForPDI]

I think we need to define "great progress here". We certainly can't deny that China is making progress, but considering the progress of the US and Soviet programs during the 1960s, it probably isn't exceptional (even by modern standards).

So far, the PRC has managed about 0.6 manned flights per year.

Between 1961 and 1966, a similar period of time, the US had launched 6 Mercury and 10 Gemini flights, a rate of 3.2 flights per year. Between 1961 and 1966, the USSR launched 6 Vostok and 2 Voskhod missions, a rate of 1.6 flights per year (even though there were no missions in 1966, I kept it in there for consistency; in a 4-year period, that would be 2 flights per year).

It is also worth noting that this is starting practically right at the beginning of human spaceflight, so everything was pretty much being developed for the first time. In addition, multiple programs were being flown within this time period; Mercury to Gemini, Vostok to Voskhod, with Apollo and Soyuz not far behind.

Two years into its manned spaceflight program, the US had already flown as many people, on single-person vehicles, as have been flown till 2008 in Shenzhou vehicles.

It is also worth noting, however, that Shenzhou is more capable than all of the vehicles in the first era of manned spaceflight by the US and USSR, even Gemini.

If we take other periods in manned spaceflight, such as the first five years after STS-1, we have a rate of 5 flights per year. In the first five years after STS-51L, 8.8 missions per year, and in the first five years after STS-107, 1.2 missions per year.

If we take the first five years of Soyuz flights, we have an average of 2.2 flights per year, first five years of Mir, 2.6 flights per year, the first five years of Soyuz flights to the ISS, also 2.2 flights per year.

So the Chinese flight-rate has indeed been quite low, compared to US and Soviet rates at the beginning of the space age. Three missions are planned for 2012 though, so there is no reason to think that such low flight-rates will continue.

While China comes some 40 years late to the game of manned spaceflight, they have some 40 years of US and Russian experience to build on; information is available freely on the internet now, that a rocket scientist of 1950 could kill for.

But you are not taking into account the fact that the USA and the USSR were in a Cold War at the time! The budgets spent on those early flights were probably nothing near what China currently spends on its human spaceflight.

 

[T.Neo]

But you are not taking into account the fact that the USA and the USSR were in a Cold War at the time! The budgets spent on those early flights were probably nothing near what China currently spends on its human spaceflight.

I think that makes sense... if you flip "the budgets of those programs were probably nothing near what China currently spends on human spaceflight" with "China probably spends nowhere near what the USA and USSR did in the early days of their manned programs".

Remember, those guys were not only working on several programs within a pretty limited period of time- and were developing all sorts of infrastructure and knowledge from very little.

And they were doing it for the first time. Not "first time we've built it" first time, but "first time anyone has ever tried" first time.

Based on ongoing programs and flight-rate, I think it would be safe to say that CNSA's manned spaceflight budget is either smaller than, or similar to, the budget of the US and Soviet programs of the 1960s.

And even then, having a high budget does not make things super-impressive. I can start a program to launch a pet rock into space, and it'll cost you 600 billion dollars. Yes, yes, all the workers in the production facility will wear clothes and shoes covered in gold leaf, among other unique and special arrangements, but that doesn't mean the project is an exceptionally special effort. :shifty:

There is data on the budget of NASA from 1958 to the present. From 1961 to 1966, NASA spent roughly $21.7 billion per year (in 2007 constant dollars). Of course, the budget started out at only 6.3 billion in '61, practically doubled in '62, and then practically doubled again in '63.

Those must have been the days.

If there is data anywhere on the budget of CNSA, it would put this to bed... but I doubt that data is available to the public, if it even exists in any coherent form at all.