Discussion Tile making

misha.physics

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I'm just reading OrbiterConfig.pdf in Orbiter 2016/Doc, and there are:

surf.png

Maybe someone knows if Orbiter 2016 supports Surface tile list? And what about OpenOrbiter? Could we use the following section in <base-name>.cfg?:

list.png
 

DaveS

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I'm just reading OrbiterConfig.pdf in Orbiter 2016/Doc, and there are:

View attachment 34247

Maybe someone knows if Orbiter 2016 supports Surface tile list? And what about OpenOrbiter? Could we use the following section in <base-name>.cfg?:

View attachment 34248
Surface tiles were removed in the 2016 version, making Orbiter 2010-P1 the last version to support them.
 

LordCroussette

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Surface tiles were removed in the 2016 version, making Orbiter 2010-P1 the last version to support them.
I don't think that's true. It seem you can indeed use the old tile system by editing Earth.cfg in the config file.
1691625087185.png
1691625105186.png
Never tried it though, so I don't know if it works or not.
 

Abloheet

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The old base tile format still works with both legacy and default 2016 format. However it will be floating at the old altitude 0 level, corresponding with Earth's curvature, and not placed on the actual terrain altitude which maybe above or below the Earth's curvature level at that particular location. That's why the manual says it's not recommended to use the base tiles anymore, since they don't support terrain. Same for other celestial bodies like moon, Mars or any other object

It's better to convert the base tiles shipped with old add-ons, if possible, into the new quad tree format, by doing colour matching and editing like showcased in this tutorial, then they will get applied on the terrain correctly. Maybe even an automated tool can be developed for converting, or helping to convert, the legacy base tiles into new quad tree format
 

misha.physics

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I was trying to make feathered edges of a surface tile in Photoshop, but these blurry edges are pixelated (in the middle of the screenshot). It seems that Orbiter (or D3D9) makes its own blur. I really don't understand why we don't see pixels at a close distance from the ground (on the right in the screenshot).

View attachment 34227
But Edge Blend in TerrainToolBox makes it fine. Although it should be made for every boundary tiles of each level separately.
 

misha.physics

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I see the following aspects/difficulties in making and using the highly-detailed surface textures in Orbiter:

1) Matching a tile colour
2) Blending/blurring a tile edge

3) Large size of tile files
4) Performance decreasing

5) Flickering of highly-detailed tile images, especially at a sharp viewing angles

The last one seems the hardest to me, and I'd like to discuss this. At least in the context of a small surface area (base). Some time ago I was interested in this question and:
The flickering is due to lack of mipmaps. Currently mipmaps are auto generated during runtime for surface tile levels 1 - 8 but not for a high resolution tiles. That's because a surface tile load times would increase a lot mostly because the mipmaps needs to be compressed after creation.

Most practical solution would be a patch utility that would process and add the mipmaps to the entire surface tile database. But, the process could take many hours to run.
So, do I understand correctly that when we see, for exapmle, a tile of 5 level Orbiter creates mip-maps for this tile and we see different copies of it at various distances (when the tile of this 5 level is visible)? Such tile system reminds mip-maps system, so if we could increase the number of tile levels, namely decrease the "distance" between adjacent levels (namely using ...18, 18.1, 18.2, ... , 18.8, 18.9 ,19... levels instead of just ...18, 19...) it will be something like mip-maps? As far as I understnand there are two possibilities:​
1) Let Orbiter to create these additional levels (this increases the loading time)
2) We can create it ourselves (this increases the size of textures, but we can do it only for a small area i.e. base)

The ways I can imagine for the flickering aspect:

[imath]\bullet[/imath] Flickering is visible mainly when a texture is oriented at a sharp angle. Maybe it can be used/invented some technology which will work only with such situation.
[imath]\bullet[/imath] Creating a round or elliptical area around a craft where surface textures are crisp and blurring textures outside the area. I mean some limited visibility area, like fog.
[imath]\bullet[/imath] Maybe we can try this solution, but for a small surface area:
Most practical solution would be a patch utility that would process and add the mipmaps to the entire surface tile database. But, the process could take many hours to run.
[imath]\bullet[/imath] Or maybe some micro textures for Earth, but I really don't know if something like this is possible. I had an idea about biomes, but I'm not sure it's reasonable...
[imath]\bullet[/imath] I've noticed the following thing. Surface textures much less flicker if we use them not as quadtree tiles, but as a *.dds texture like Runway2.dds. I did some comparison. I made the "standard" surface quadtree system from 15 to 19 level where every tile is 512x512 pixels (so I took an image of 8192x8192 pixels). Then I took another 8192x8192 pixels image, converted it to *.dds format and loaded as well as Runway2.dds, so I defined the texture as an object in a base *.cfg file. I don't mean we should use the second way for the surface texture, it seems to be some problems with it, but it just interesting that just the same texture doesn't flicker. Maybe it can help in the flickering question. Quadtree system (left) and the "solid" texture as an object (right):
1.png2.png3.png

I could provide these files if you would like to test it.
Anyway, I'd like to know your opinion/thoughts on all this.
 

misha.physics

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Runways defined as objects are visible through surface textures. Do someone know if it's possible to do something with this?

t.png
 

misha.physics

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Do someone know how to change the lights height in the green frame? The base *.cfg file allows to set the height only for the lights in the red frame:

light.png

And is there a solution for wrong object shadows when surface elevation is enabled?:

shadows.png
 

misha.physics

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I have one (very stupid) question. I made surf tiles:

water.png

And the question is: do I have to delete this water area from surf tiles?:

water2.png

I think I know how to do it. I can put the default low detailed surf tile under my high detailed surf tile as a layer and erase this water piece. I'm just not sure if I should do this for the surf tiles, because maybe I can do this only for the mask tiles. But I think if I didn't erase this water area on the surf tiles then it will shine through mask tiles, and it will be quite noticeable.
 

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I have one (very stupid) question. I made surf tiles:

View attachment 34607

And the question is: do I have to delete this water area from surf tiles?:

View attachment 34608

I think I know how to do it. I can put the default low detailed surf tile under my high detailed surf tile as a layer and erase this water piece. I'm just not sure if I should do this for the surf tiles, because maybe I can do this only for the mask tiles. But I think if I didn't erase this water area on the surf tiles then it will shine through mask tiles, and it will be quite noticeable.
I think transparency would work, but I suggest you simply repaint it with the original water colour.
 

misha.physics

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I've tried one idea for smoother crossing (as well as colour matching) between low default and high detailed surf tiles. I overlapped these textures each other and set different opacity for different levels as follows:
19 level - 100%
18 level - 80%
17 level - 60%
16 level - 40%
15 level - 20%
But it looked really bad. But maybe it could be better for some landscape like desert and like this.
 

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Wait why would you put different opacity to each level???
 

misha.physics

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I thought it can improve the colour matching while moving between adjacent levels.
 

misha.physics

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But it was inefficient.

Also, I tried three different maps:

1.png2.png3.png

The first one is Google Maps, it's more detailed, but the last two fit the colour better. Here are the last two with gradient blurry edges:

1.png2.png

And this all is only automatic color matching. Perhaps it can be made better manually, but I'm not sure :unsure:
 

misha.physics

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Is it possible to use the surf and mask tiles independently in the following meaning?

Let's imagine that we made higly detailed surf tiles up to 19 level, but we don't want to make mask tiles. Namely, we want to use the default low detailed mask tiles which are only up to 13 level (we want them to be rendered in low quality up to level 19 as it is for the surf tiles).

Now it doesn't work, because we obtain pure black view (look at screenshots below). Of course, we can make the low detailed mask tiles up to 19 level from the default ones, but maybe there's a more simple way?

1.png2.png
 

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Is it possible to use the surf and mask tiles independently in the following meaning?

Let's imagine that we made higly detailed surf tiles up to 19 level, but we don't want to make mask tiles. Namely, we want to use the default low detailed mask tiles which are only up to 13 level (we want them to be rendered in low quality up to level 19 as it is for the surf tiles).

Now it doesn't work, because we obtain pure black view (look at screenshots below). Of course, we can make the low detailed mask tiles up to 19 level from the default ones, but maybe there's a more simple way?

View attachment 34622View attachment 34623
As far as I am aware, that is not the case. I believe the mask tiles are dependant on the surface tiles, and can only mask their respective counterpart in the surface folder. So, a L15 mask tile couldn't mask four L16 surface tiles, etc. L14 = L14, L15 = L15, etc.
 

misha.physics

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Yes, that is. Also I've just checked that a mask tile of level 15 doesn't mask a surf tile of level 14.
 

misha.physics

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I've just discovered that we can make custom tiles of level less than 11. To test it I've made a surf tile of level 10. It's very useful if we make a big surface area and want the custom tiles don't differ (using transparent/blurred edges) from the default global surface textures (tiles)! I think that's really wonderful! And will help me in making a pretty big surface area of Kyiv with three airports. It will cover two tiles of level 13:

Без імені.png
 
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