What? The sun could be infinite?

Linguofreak

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But, wouldnt the lessened output from the sun affect life on Earth, or did I completely misunderstand you?

It would depend on how quickly you took off mass: Stars the size of the Sun tend to brighten as they get older, so taking off mass slowly would allow you to keep the brightness fairly constant (though it might not give as much of a life-extension).

And then, to paraphrase Artlav, if you're doing stellar engineering, you probably have the knowhow and resources to do planetary engineering too.
 

T.Neo

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Isn't there a method by which the lifespan of the sun could be lengthened without significantly changing its mass? That sounds like it would cause all sorts of secondary problems with the planetary system that surrounds the star. Several planets and millions of asteroids going haywire probably isn't a good thing.
 

Thunder Chicken

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Many of the difficulties described here also define the problems with getting stable fusion to work here on Earth, albeit on much smaller scale - getting fuel to the reaction and getting the heavy products out without mucking up the works.

In chemical engineering terms, the sun and stars are batch reactors - you dump in the ingredients at the start and stir and the reactions go to completion. Fusion is fairly easy to implement as a batch process.

However, we really want fusion to behave like a coal power plant - send in continuous streams of fuel and oxidizer, exhaust continuous streams of exhaust and waste, and produce power at a steady rate. This is a much harder thing to do.
 

Unstung

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Going back to the original post about the magnets, did anybody ever think of this?
magnets.jpg

The answer appears to be edited by a different person, and in this case is certainly looks like, excuse me, a successful troll. I think the person who edited it literally meant common magnets.
 

Linguofreak

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Isn't there a method by which the lifespan of the sun could be lengthened without significantly changing its mass? That sounds like it would cause all sorts of secondary problems with the planetary system that surrounds the star. Several planets and millions of asteroids going haywire probably isn't a good thing.

Given that the mass loss would occur on a scale of millennia, all that would happen is that the orbits of all of your planets/asteroids/orbital habitats/etc. in the system would widen gradually. The amount of widening would be roughly constant across the system (depending on where you put the removed mass) and determined by the amount of mass lost.

Once again, if you have the capacity to do it, you have the capacity to do the planetary engineering necessary to compensate for it.
 

statickid

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I heard a competing theory that the sun is a hologram :shifty:

For some reason I get the feeling that we'll be more interested in sustainable deep space colonization or long distance travel before we try to control the sun. Even if the sun were to last forever, will we be able to manage our resources to match that longevity?
 

T.Neo

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Given that the mass loss would occur on a scale of millennia, all that would happen is that the orbits of all of your planets/asteroids/orbital habitats/etc. in the system would widen gradually. The amount of widening would be roughly constant across the system (depending on where you put the removed mass) and determined by the amount of mass lost.

Yes, but the concern here is that this will set off instabilities in the system, as the orbital periods and tidal interactions of the planets change. These instabilities could take considerable timescales to arise in any case.

And then you are also presumably faced with the issue of the luminosity of the star (presumably) decreasing while the planetary orbits are slowly growing wider (as if either occuring at once would be bad enough), which doesn't bode well for anything in the habitable zone.

Once again, if you have the capacity to do it, you have the capacity to do the planetary engineering necessary to compensate for it.

I'm sure it makes total sense in theory, but having a bailing arm and a bucket onboard isn't an invitation to blow a hole through the side of your boat.
 

Linguofreak

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Yes, but the concern here is that this will set off instabilities in the system, as the orbital periods and tidal interactions of the planets change. These instabilities could take considerable timescales to arise in any case.

Unless you're storing the extracted mass in the inner system (so that the outer planets see a star of roughly the same mass as before you started while the inner planets see a reduced mass) the ratios of the orbital periods of the planets won't change, so the dynamics of the system will be the same, just at longer timescales.

I'm sure it makes total sense in theory, but having a bailing arm and a bucket onboard isn't an invitation to blow a hole through the side of your boat.

Not at all equivalent. I'd compare it more to controlled admission of water to the diving tanks in a submarine (with the possibility that you can always blow the water back out) than to blowing a hole in a boat and then bailing out water that's coming in in an uncontrolled and unstoppable stream.
 

T.Neo

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Unless you're storing the extracted mass in the inner system (so that the outer planets see a star of roughly the same mass as before you started while the inner planets see a reduced mass) the ratios of the orbital periods of the planets won't change, so the dynamics of the system will be the same, just at longer timescales.

Sounds particularly odd to me. Surely a change in orbital periods would affect the system dynamics in some way, especially if the periods of the inner and outer planets change at different rates. Storing large amounts of hydrogen in the inner system is more easily said than done (especially since, up to this point, at least, you are merely suggesting storing it somehow). Changes in the inner system don't bode well for me; I live there. Perhaps I'm just biased.

Of course, there's also the issue of reducing luminosity of the central star. I suppose in certain scenarios this would helpfully offset the natural rise in luminosity due to stellar evolution, but in other scenarios things may be more problematic (if for example a greatly increased stellar lifespan is only possible by reducing the stellar luminosity by a considerable amount).

Not at all equivalent. I'd compare it more to controlled admission of water to the diving tanks in a submarine (with the possibility that you can always blow the water back out) than to blowing a hole in a boat and then bailing out water that's coming in in an uncontrolled and unstoppable stream.

I don't see how changing the fundamental dynamics of a system (i.e. reducing the mass of the central body) is all that different from changing the fundamental dynamics of a boat (i.e. by creating hole in it and allowing water to enter a space previously filled with air). You may understand what is going on, and be able to bail out enough water to keep the vessel afloat, but you would still be better off if there were no hole at all.
 

Linguofreak

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Sounds particularly odd to me. Surely a change in orbital periods would affect the system dynamics in some way, especially if the periods of the inner and outer planets change at different rates.

As long as the removed mass is stored at a suitably great distance (or just discarded onto an escape trajectory), they won't change at different rates.

Storing large amounts of hydrogen in the inner system is more easily said than done (especially since, up to this point, at least, you are merely suggesting storing it somehow). Changes in the inner system don't bode well for me; I live there. Perhaps I'm just biased.

Read what I said again. I'm not suggesting storing it in the inner system. I'm saying that *unless* you store it in the inner system, it won't cause problems. The removed material is most likely going to be coming off the sun going fast enough that it won't remain in the inner system unless you take action to slow it down.

If, for whatever reason, you *do* store it in the inner system, then you are indeed at risk of seriously upsetting the dynamics of the system.

Of course, there's also the issue of reducing luminosity of the central star. I suppose in certain scenarios this would helpfully offset the natural rise in luminosity due to stellar evolution, but in other scenarios things may be more problematic (if for example a greatly increased stellar lifespan is only possible by reducing the stellar luminosity by a considerable amount).

The Wikipedia article on starlifting gives an order-of-magnitude estimate based on the depth of the Sun's gravity well that using 10 percent of the Sun's output you could remove about 6*10^21 kg per year, which works out to an Earth mass per millennium, or three thousandths of the Sun's mass in a million years. For comparison, with that energy budget, you could put Earth on an escape trajectory in a year or deorbit it into the sun in two. You've got plenty of time to tweak orbits (at least, you do if you have the resources to divert enough of the Sun's energy to make a starlifting project worthwhile at all).

Furthermore, the best candidates for star lifting (best increase in lifespan for least time invested) are high-mass stars that won't have habitable planets at the beginning of the project anyways. You *can* starlift the sun, but as the numbers above demonstrate, you really have to be in it for the long haul.

I don't see how changing the fundamental dynamics of a system (i.e. reducing the mass of the central body) is all that different from changing the fundamental dynamics of a boat (i.e. by creating hole in it and allowing water to enter a space previously filled with air). You may understand what is going on, and be able to bail out enough water to keep the vessel afloat, but you would still be better off if there were no hole at all.

Well, first of all, as I've said, as long as the ejected material is removed to a far enough distance, the dynamics of the system really don't change much (distances get scaled up by a constant, and the same for orbital periods). Secondly, unlike punching a hole in the bottom of a boat, you can stop removing mass from the star at any time, and depending on whether you stored the removed mass 1000 AU out or sent it on an escape trajectory, you may even be able to put it back. The difference is a much greater degree of control. (Plus, the timescale is long enough that you can monitor how things are going easily. In the Sun's case, you'll be several million years down the road before the effects start becoming noticeable).
 

T.Neo

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Well, first of all, as I've said, as long as the ejected material is removed to a far enough distance, the dynamics of the system really don't change much (distances get scaled up by a constant, and the same for orbital periods).

That may not change the dynamics much, but one would imagine it changes the dynamics nevertheless. The issue isn't planets crossing eachother's orbits and ejecting themselves from the system (at least not initially), but finer aspects like precessions and milankovitch cycles being disrupted and causing trouble over significant timescales.

By comparison, full scale re-engineering of orbits (such as in an example where the luminosity of the sun may be reduced by 50%, and require significant movement of the Earth) could lead to far greater disruptions.

Secondly, unlike punching a hole in the bottom of a boat, you can stop removing mass from the star at any time, and depending on whether you stored the removed mass 1000 AU out or sent it on an escape trajectory, you may even be able to put it back. The difference is a much greater degree of control. (Plus, the timescale is long enough that you can monitor how things are going easily. In the Sun's case, you'll be several million years down the road before the effects start becoming noticeable).

You can also plug a hole in a boat, or bail out seawater as necessary, but it's still desirable not to have a hole in the side of your boat.

My point isn't that the effects of starlifting are dangerous enough to preclude it, it's that a method of significantly lengthening the lifespan of a star without significantly changing its mass is a 'cleaner' solution carrying fewer tertiary difficulties, and is thus desirable.
 
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