DC Sniper put to death

SiberianTiger

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Why should I work hard and pay taxes to keep some scum in the lap of prision luxury? It costs MILLIONS in prison space, guards, human rights appeals, TV's, games centers, education and other things to keep a prisoner and I'm paying for it? No.

Keep it simple - save on everything except the 2 first.

P.S.
Those that break the law are no longer eligable to be protected by those laws. And for clarification I'm not talking about some idiot who did a minor crime. I'm talking soley about murder here.

I was talking about the Ten Commandments. I thought the only lawful supplementary chapter to them were the Beautitudes. Do you happen to know more?
 
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Urwumpe

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Those that break the law are no longer eligable to be protected by those laws. And for clarification I'm not talking about some idiot who did a minor crime. I'm talking soley about murder here.

That is wrong. ANY action by the state has to be bound by laws and if your constitution really has the words "All people are equal" (or variations of it) in it, the same laws apply for innocent and for criminals. That is the principle behind a Rechtsstaat, and there is good evidence in the world to assume that not being a Rechtsstaat is ending in tyranny.

You are not asked if those laws apply to you, especially if you don't like them, just as much as the state is not allowed to refuse applying laws that are favorable for you.
 

garyw

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I was talking about the Ten Commandments.
I've not seen the 10 commandments on any legal statute books so they are not laws.

ANY action by the state has to be bound by laws

Agreed. I said it was my personal opinion and the US law (in certain) states say's it's legal for the death penalty to be enforced. I have no issues with this.
 

Urwumpe

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Agreed. I said it was my personal opinion and the US law (in certain) states say's it's legal for the death penalty to be enforced. I have no issues with this.

All countries have more than enough laws, which are not kosher. They are mostly more or less different forms of "might makes right". Just look at the racial laws of the USA in the past, which had been perfectly "legal". And all laws in the dark ages of Germany had also been the same kind of legal.

Only because it is law, it must not be right.
 

SiberianTiger

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I've not seen the 10 commandments on any legal statute books so they are not laws.

Laws are commonly invented by houses of representatives. They are comprised by people driven by a conventional morale. The conventional morale may come from many sources, and possible ones are religious covenants or Geneva Conventions. Therefore, the mentioned commandments aren't laws, they are source of laws instead.
 

jtiberius

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Death penalty is inacceptable.
Germany has its history with death penalty in 3. Reich.
Glad and proud to live in the Bundesrepublik or should i say western europe.

jtiberius
 

atuhalpa

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Humans, males mostly, are a barbaric, unconscious, and self destructive species, and thusly the death penalty is an act that is true to our nature.

There are a minority of individuals that don't fit this description, however they are vastly outnumbered and thus their influence is negligable
 

Ghostrider

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I have mixed thoughts about the death penalty. On one hand, giving the State power of life and death over its citizens is not good in my book, on the other hand we should understand that it already has it, whether we like it or not. If the state wants you dead, you're either dead or, if you're not, you're the Hulk.

There's a number of arguments against capital punishment that I believe are not exactly in touch with reality. For instance, the classical one is that it's no deterrent. Well, it happens nothing else is a deterrent, either. Jail is not, or we wouldn't have any need for them. Fines surely are no deterrent, more like a source of income in recent times. But sure as hell, prison doesn't seem to deter criminals much.
The true deterrent is - or should be - the certainty of punishment being carried out. The most hideous punishment isn't very effective if everybody knows there's no darn way they can be caught.

Then there's the little problem that perpetrators come in many categories, most of which are hardly deterred at all. The most easily deterred one is the most harmless - the ordinary guy who is driven to commit a crime out of need or desperation. The really desperate ones are not deterred at all because anything may be seen as a better outcome than their current situation.

Those who belong to organized crime have absolutely no fear of the legal system because more often than not, the underground society they live in has rules and punishments far harsher than anything we may come up with and, unlike us, their system guarantees punishment WILL be carried out. Ask anyone who ever had to deal with the mob.

What of the corporate weasel who embarks in illegal ventures? He's not very scared of the law either: he's got the money and the lawyers to buy his way out or to stall trials to kingdom come.

Then there are the sociopaths. They live in a different world. They do what they do because that's the way they're made. You could threaten them with anything from impalement to being buried from the neck down next to an anthill, and it would make absolutely no difference. Prison does not scare them. Ol'sparky does not scare them.

So, it's not about punishment di per se, but the ability of the police and the judicial system to effectively investigate and prosecute crimes, something that we unfortunately lack.

The other argument against death penalty is that it's not reversible. OK, but what about 40 years in jail? Happened to some guy just because of a mistake. Yes, he was freed but his life is gone. His family is gone. Might as well be dead, because sure as hell he's not going to get another take at life, and will be living the rest of it in bitter resentment. Mind you, even a short time in prison is going to pretty much destroy your life even if you're later recognized as innocent: your job will be gone and you'll be surrounded by suspect as long as you exist. By the time the system has "corrected" its mistake, your existance will be effectively over.

Some people still believe that the goal of imprisonment should be "redemption" of the subjects. This is wishful thinking. Sending a petty criminal to prison will result in a more hardened criminal upon release. And once they are released, what happens? Society does not easily reintegrates ex-cons. For most jobs nowadays you must have a clean criminal record, or you will not be good even for flipping burgers. It's an understandable policy on the part of employers because you can't take risks with employees anymore, but it also means that ex-cons will more often than not return to crime in a very short time.

And again, when you're dealing with sociopaths, there is pretty much nothing to do. As I said, I have mixed thoughts about the topic but it's because the whole system needs re-thinking, not just the punishment phase that should be the end of the process.
 

Linguofreak

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Perjury is not a prerequisite to an incorrect guilty verdict. Consider where some error (not be detectable by contemporary science) in the processing of evidence is the cause. If the error were known it could be sufficient to introduce a reasonable doubt.

True, that's why I said "Well, this wouldn't apply to all cases of mistaken executions, but my opinion is..."

Perjury is still a *possible* cause for an incorrect guilty verdict, and in cases where it is, it should carry the same penalty as it brought upon the wrongfully convicted person.
 

Urwumpe

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Also, there is always the pressure on the law enforcement agencies to produce a criminal for a crime... and often they decide to pick somebody and hide all evidence that could show his innocence. Happened lately in Germany, the likely real criminal is another policeman.
 

Hielor

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Keep it simple - save on everything except the 2 first.
Ironically, the reason that you can't get rid of the others is that there are requirements to be humane to prisoners.
 

Urwumpe

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Ironically, the reason that you can't get rid of the others is that there are requirements to be humane to prisoners.

Would it be better for you, the prisoners get rather killed in concentration camps, by forced labor without ANY humanity?
 

Kurt M. Weber

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That is true, but the death penalty is still immoral.

No, it's not.

Nothing can be more moral than giving each entity what it deserves. While it may not be possible to do this totally, that is no reason not to do it to the extent possible.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

I can't believe in any person on this planet deserving death.
Precisely.
 

Art

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I vote we send them to Robot Hell!

Seriously, we electrocute or gas 50,000,000 chickens a year. That isn't immoral is it? If it is, we have built up an awful lot of "immoral"! Gosh, where are we keeping it all? I hope we don't have a big immoral leak contaminating the environment! I sure hope this dosn't affect the day to day lives of the people in the future, having to live with all the immoral we have left behind.
Seriously, putting people to death just sucks. It's creep-you-out gross. Cannibalisim-driven war I can understand, but not the "behind closed doors" execution. It isn't even used as a public deterrent, just a 4th page kinda newsstory that no-one is relating to.
I say that if you wanna pull the plug on someone, it has to be cheaper than the incarceration option. Also, after doing the deed, you have to partake of the barbeque YOURSELF (Judge, Jury, Switchman) and don't waste any meat. After all, that guy was probably special to someone in his cell-block....wink wink.

Life sentences= hard labor...none of that sitting around being gangster crud. Work til you die, raise everything you eat and then some.

Less than life sentence= Regular work hours + actual HARD DRIVEN rehabilitation (call it re-education or brainwashing if you like) in a military style. Can't get out until you get a degree or certification PLUS have paid for your encarceration and training PLUS have start-up money PLUS be tested drug-free/non-smoking.

Who knows, with us trashing the planet with Immoral dropped everywhere with all the executions and adultery, maybe people in the future won't even notice the litter and pollution.
 

insanity

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No, it's not.

Nothing can be more moral than giving each entity what it deserves. While it may not be possible to do this totally, that is no reason not to do it to the extent possible.

It's immoral because it is state-sponsored murder on the premise of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Once the state has killed one innocent human then the whole institution is immoral as it allowed it. There are no ways to remedy this problem under the law.
 

Hielor

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It's immoral because it is state-sponsored murder on the premise of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Once the state has killed one innocent human then the whole institution is immoral as it allowed it. There are no ways to remedy this problem under the law.
Is it also immoral to lock up an innocent person?

If so, you've just proven that jails are immoral too, and I guess we can't allow that.
 

insanity

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Is it also immoral to lock up an innocent person?

If so, you've just proven that jails are immoral too, and I guess we can't allow that.

No. That's a straw man.

The criminal justice system has to operate under the principal of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, but the difference is that the state has robbed one only of their rights as citizens, not their right to life. When an innocent man is arrested, his situation can have a legal remedy. When an innocent man is killed there is no legal remedy.
 

eveningsky339

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Is it also immoral to lock up an innocent person?

If so, you've just proven that jails are immoral too, and I guess we can't allow that.
Or community service for misdemeanors. God forbid an innocent man picked up trash by the highway.
 

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Killing is still killing, however it is done. Nothing can change that. Killing is immoral. Nothing can change that either.
 

Andy44

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There is nearly always some subtle coercion between an employer and employee. How many people truly feel they can just up and quit their job whenever they feel like it? It might be alright for me (engineers are in fairly short supply/high demand in this country) but I know plenty of others who do not the feel the same way.

I once spoke to a cop who told me the people who do this are all volunteers, and there are always more volunteers than there are positions available.

Make what you will of that.
 
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