How would a war between N.Korea, China and USA be fought?

[Ghostrider]

That post wasn't directed to you.

We need sights on the posting window.

 

[Urwumpe]

I just think if war would start that we could create a secondary goal of liberating NK which gives more power to SK and the NK civilians that dread ever day will gladly support the liberation.

Like in Iran, Iraq, Chile or Cuba? I still see how much the people gladly support the liberation in Iraq. all those independence day fireworks every day.

Or do you mean like in Germany, bringing democracy to this god-forsaken place after Hitler got elected.....uh....well... :facepalm:

You can't install democracy by remote control. That is exactly the opposite of democracy.

I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.

Democracy can only come from within. If the citizens don't exist yet, because you only have peasants, democracy is just tyranny by another name. Like you can see in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Weimar republic in Germany did also only fail, because the democrats had been the minority. Hitler wasn't even elected to be chancellor or had the most powerful party. he just got installed by a president who was no democrat as well.

 

[Cerebus]

I just think if war would start that we could create a secondary goal of liberating NK which gives more power to SK and the NK civilians that dread ever day will gladly support the liberation. China wouldn't have to worried about having NK damaging their relations with other countries because of their actions.

And what gives us, ( the West), the right to decide that the average North Korean citizen is in need of 'Liberation', they have not asked for help in ousting their leadership, and how do we know that those same citizens 'dread every day', yes, to an outsider what we see is a dictatorship that controls every aspect of their citizens lives, but if those citizens never see what we see, then all they know is what they are told.

I find it arrogant and dangerous for any country to decide that another country needs liberation, the vague rumours of discontent among the arab people of southern iraq, and the kurds in the north were promoted as support for an invasion of iraq, and is that support real? vaguely, and half-heartedly, since the occupying forces are just that, foreign invaders, who came in unasked, and disrupted a way of life, that while hard, was bearable.

What would the average Westerner do in response to an invasion of their country, a change to their political system, and alterations to their laws that changed the very fabric of their society? I imagine that a proportion would take to the hills and resist, with every fabric of their being.

How would the United States react if decisions made on their political system, laws and taxation were made by a foreign government? By rebellion, sedition, and outright war, they would attempt to liberate themselves from such tyranny would they not? After all, that's exactly what happened in the 1770's.

Democracy is a political ideal, much as Communism is, and political ideals are, well idealistic, they are fine on paper, but don't apply them to a mass of people, there is no perfect political system, Democracy does not work, neither does Communism, or Anarchy, Monarchy, Feudalism, or in fact any political system.

North Korea will eventually collapse, politically, and there may be trouble before the end, but we would be wrong to once more force a country to bow before the Imperial United States of America.

If the citizens of North Korea rose up tomorrow and called for the downfall of it's government, would I feel justified in aiding those people in their uprising, sending troops to support them, arm and aid the rebels? Yes I would, wholeheartedly, but not unasked for, thats just arrogant, as urwumpe says, you cannot install Democracy in a country which does not want it, that's just tyranny.

 

[MJR]

Like in Iran, Iraq, Chile or Cuba? I still see how much the people gladly support the liberation in Iraq. all those independence day fireworks every day.

Or do you mean like in Germany, bringing democracy to this god-forsaken place after Hitler got elected.....uh....well... :facepalm:

You can't install democracy by remote control. That is exactly the opposite of democracy.

I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.

Democracy can only come from within. If the citizens don't exist yet, because you only have peasants, democracy is just tyranny by another name. Like you can see in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Weimar republic in Germany did also only fail, because the democrats had been the minority. Hitler wasn't even elected to be chancellor or had the most powerful party. he just got installed by a president who was no democrat as well.

Unfortunately the world does not work that way. No democratic country did not put in some effort to do something that needed to be accomplished. You can't simply just sight down and try talking because you know where that will lead to.

 

[eveningsky339]

And what gives us, ( the West), the right to decide that the average North Korean citizen is in need of 'Liberation', they have not asked for help in ousting their leadership, and how do we know that those same citizens 'dread every day', yes, to an outsider what we see is a dictatorship that controls every aspect of their citizens lives, but if those citizens never see what we see, then all they know is what they are told.

I find it arrogant and dangerous for any country to decide that another country needs liberation, the vague rumours of discontent among the arab people of southern iraq, and the kurds in the north were promoted as support for an invasion of iraq, and is that support real? vaguely, and half-heartedly, since the occupying forces are just that, foreign invaders, who came in unasked, and disrupted a way of life, that while hard, was bearable.

What would the average Westerner do in response to an invasion of their country, a change to their political system, and alterations to their laws that changed the very fabric of their society? I imagine that a proportion would take to the hills and resist, with every fabric of their being.

How would the United States react if decisions made on their political system, laws and taxation were made by a foreign government? By rebellion, sedition, and outright war, they would attempt to liberate themselves from such tyranny would they not? After all, that's exactly what happened in the 1770's.

Democracy is a political ideal, much as Communism is, and political ideals are, well idealistic, they are fine on paper, but don't apply them to a mass of people, there is no perfect political system, Democracy does not work, neither does Communism, or Anarchy, Monarchy, Feudalism, or in fact any political system.

North Korea will eventually collapse, politically, and there may be trouble before the end, but we would be wrong to once more force a country to bow before the Imperial United States of America.

If the citizens of North Korea rose up tomorrow and called for the downfall of it's government, would I feel justified in aiding those people in their uprising, sending troops to support them, arm and aid the rebels? Yes I would, wholeheartedly, but not unasked for, thats just arrogant, as urwumpe says, you cannot install Democracy in a country which does not want it, that's just tyranny.

This.

Our best move is to allow NK to continue its isolation and decay. It's not glorious by any means, but it's the safest strategy for all sides.

The only danger with leaving NK alone is the chance of more destructive incidents (even more so than the sinking of the SK battleship just a few months back). Hell, if Kim Jong Il was dying on his deathbed, it's not unimaginable for him order an unprovoked war on SK. The man loses more of his grip on reality every day.

 

[MJR]

This.

Our best move is to allow NK to continue its isolation and decay. It's not glorious by any means, but it's the safest strategy for all sides.

The only danger with leaving NK alone is the chance of more destructive incidents (even more so than the sinking of the SK battleship just a few months back). Hell, if Kim Jong Il was dying on his deathbed, it's not unimaginable for him order an unprovoked war on SK. The man loses more of his grip on reality every day.

If we let NK "decay" then it will destroy more than just their country. Millions more civilians will die and more "Chenoan" incidents will happen and people who have families and lives back home will, I guess, be the collateral damage which is preposterous. I know war will too, but finally once and for all saving the troubled country of NK will benefit.

 

[insanity]

If we let NK "decay" then it will destroy more than just their country. Millions more civilians will die and more "Chenoan" incidents will happen and people who have families and lives back home will, I guess, be the collateral damage which is preposterous. I know war will too, but finally once and for all saving the troubled country of NK will benefit.

More lives will be lost installing democracy on a country that isn't ready nor doesn't want it. This regime will fall eventually, and when it does we'll see how the population of North Korea wants to proceed.

 

[Urwumpe]

Unfortunately the world does not work that way. No democratic country did not put in some effort to do something that needed to be accomplished. You can't simply just sight down and try talking because you know where that will lead to.

Did you understand any of what was said above: No democratic country has the right to tell people of other countries how they should be living. :facepalm:

What would you say if North Korea tells you that the USA should be adopting the Juche system, because it is better than the US democracy? Would you seriously consider it or directly reject it, because North Korea has no right to tell you?

Actually you refuse people the same rights, that you claim you want to give them, to put their fate into their own hands. You essentially say "You are free to decide for yourself, you only need to decide for a democracy that fits into US doctrine". (Which has in the past always been a oligarchy or tyranny...even in South Korea)

If you want people to rule a country, you must make them capable of that, and that is a long process, that needs a slow and careful transition. You can't just remove the old ruler and say "YOU ARE FREE!". This will just start a struggle for power, which will only bring the next scum on the throne, if democrats are still the minority.

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------

If we let NK "decay" then it will destroy more than just their country. Millions more civilians will die and more "Chenoan" incidents will happen and people who have families and lives back home will, I guess, be the collateral damage which is preposterous. I know war will too, but finally once and for all saving the troubled country of NK will benefit.

No. Millions will die during the war and millions will die AFTER the war in power struggles that arise.

Also, are you really willed to do it for the citizens or just for political masturbation? If you really care for the people of North Korea, you wouldn't want war. You would want to solve the really everyday problems of them. The paranoid political system of NK just one of the many, far down the list. Freedom is also not missing for most of them, what is missing is electricity, food and clean water. Even just being able to visit relatives in South Korea is much higher on the list.

You always have two sides in a war. And you need to defeat both sides to have peace.

 

[GregBurch]

The paranoid political system of NK just one of the many, far down the list. Freedom is also not missing for most of them, what is missing is electricity, food and clean water. Even just being able to visit relatives in South Korea is much higher on the list.

That made me think of Lenin's famous saying that "communism is socialism plus electricity." Not a happy thought for the millions in the Ukraine who starved in 1933 for that dream, I guess. I would say that freedom is the essential missing element in the lives of the North Koreans. All the other things follow from freedom. But from the little that outsiders can understand about that society (and I'd say that I probably read most if not all of the public domain material available on the subject), I'd also have to say that coming to a life with even a minimum of freedom will be very, very difficult for the people of NK, even in the best of situations. I may not live long enough to see if I'm right, but I have the feeling that dealing with the issues created by three generations of "Juche" will be one of the hardest problems any society ever faces in terms of adapting to a new life. It will make German reunification seem easy in comparison, I'm afraid ...

 

[Urwumpe]

It will make German reunification seem easy in comparison, I'm afraid ...

It isn't over yet. We still work on it.

You have to remember that the GDR wasn't a completely anti-democratic country, there had been democratic movements and traditions that existed. Also, all citizens in the GDR had a very high education standard.

Still, we have around 20-30% people in the east who vote the successor party of the SED, and who complain about the GDR being painted as a unjust state and tyranny. Still it works since most people agree on the German Basic Law as good constitution.

The same will happen in North Korea, if you just remove Kim. A number of people will support happily the Juche party, another large group will rather support chinese style communists. The most democratic party would maybe be a South Korea style "elected tyrant" party.

 

[Ghostrider]

That made me think of Lenin's famous saying that "communism is socialism plus electricity."

Why does this make me think of Frankenstein... ?

 

[SiberianTiger]

That made me think of Lenin's famous saying that "communism is socialism plus electricity." Not a happy thought for the millions in the Ukraine who starved in 1933 for that dream, I guess.

1) The saying actually was: "Socialism is the power of Soviets plus electricity for the whole country";
2) The electrification was over by 1933 and unrelated to the famine of '33;
3) Except Ukraine, the artificially created famine struck Caucasus, the Volga, Urals, Western Siberia and Kazakhstan (and I talked to people with first-hand experience).

Education is another my duty here.

 

[ddom2006]

Correct, except it's a Tu-95. I heard the game rules are such, if the Bear opens bomb doors, it's get downed. Which never happened, luckily. So it's a kind of a non-combat mission, but with live ordnance (at least, for the fighters certainly).

I expect if it continued it's incursion into national airspace in the direction of a major city or town they'd be given permission to open fire as well. If it opens its bomb doors, it'd pretty much be a race for first to the trigger.

 

[MJR]

Did you understand any of what was said above: No democratic country has the right to tell people of other countries how they should be living. :facepalm:

What would you say if North Korea tells you that the USA should be adopting the Juche system, because it is better than the US democracy? Would you seriously consider it or directly reject it, because North Korea has no right to tell you?

Actually you refuse people the same rights, that you claim you want to give them, to put their fate into their own hands. You essentially say "You are free to decide for yourself, you only need to decide for a democracy that fits into US doctrine". (Which has in the past always been a oligarchy or tyranny...even in South Korea)

If you want people to rule a country, you must make them capable of that, and that is a long process, that needs a slow and careful transition. You can't just remove the old ruler and say "YOU ARE FREE!". This will just start a struggle for power, which will only bring the next scum on the throne, if democrats are still the minority.

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------



No. Millions will die during the war and millions will die AFTER the war in power struggles that arise.

Also, are you really willed to do it for the citizens or just for political masturbation? If you really care for the people of North Korea, you wouldn't want war. You would want to solve the really everyday problems of them. The paranoid political system of NK just one of the many, far down the list. Freedom is also not missing for most of them, what is missing is electricity, food and clean water. Even just being able to visit relatives in South Korea is much higher on the list.

You always have two sides in a war. And you need to defeat both sides to have peace.

No I'm not saying that they should adopt democracy because it is "better". Right now nobody has a say in that country. Only a few do and they don't care about anybody except for covering up all their atrocities.

 

[Urwumpe]

No I'm not saying that they should adopt democracy because it is "better". Right now nobody has a say in that country. Only a few do and they don't care about anybody except for covering up all their atrocities.

Let me quote Churchill, because he said it best:

Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Which atrocities BTW? Do you know any atrocity committed by North Koreans? Aside of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEK_Studio"]"The Lion King"[/ame].

(Yes, there are atrocities, I know them, but I just want to establish if you know them, too, before we then do a side by side comparison if North Korea had really been creative in their atrocities or just do things which the USA also do and maybe already perfected)

 

[markl316]

More lives will be lost installing democracy on a country that isn't ready nor doesn't want it. This regime will fall eventually, and when it does we'll see how the population of North Korea wants to proceed.

Yes, but we need to monitor them, to make sure they don't create nuclear weapons.

 

[insanity]

Yes, but we need to monitor them, to make sure they don't create nuclear weapons.

Why? Here's a radical idea: either everyone should have nukes or no one should have them. After-all, it was nuclear deterrence that helped keep the cold war cool. States are rational-actors and know that an offensive strike will also be their doom as well.

What I think we need to be worried about is the proliferation of these weapons into the hands of non-state actors. As long as the world doesn't give North Korea a helping hand, it would be very hard for them to send out WMDs without someone else knowing. The North's isolation is ultimately a problem for them and not us.

Irregardless, I think that anyone possessing weapons that can do as much damage as nukes can is irresponsible and full of hubris. We should get rid of them all.

 

[Ghostrider]

It's a bit too late to get rid of nukes. The genie is out of the bottle, and is not going back into it unless you can account for every kilogram of fissile material on the Earth.

 

[Urwumpe]

It's a bit too late to get rid of nukes. The genie is out of the bottle, and is not going back into it unless you can account for every kilogram of fissile material on the Earth.

What if we just use them all at once?

I would suggest July 4, 2012 for it.

 

[insanity]

It's a bit too late to get rid of nukes. The genie is out of the bottle, and is not going back into it unless you can account for every kilogram of fissile material on the Earth.

This is true, which is why I think more states should have them with a stronger NPT regime.

Ultimately, I don't think it should be left up to the Big 5 to decide which countries can join club nuke and which countries can't