Important State of the Forum Address 2019

[Thunder Chicken]

No, mostly because of ignorance. I thought Patreon was for content creators?

I'm not much more informed on ways to do this, but Patreon, Kickstarter, Indiegogo seem to have some capabilities in this regard. One of my neighbors opened a Kickstarter to pay for his father's funeral a few years ago (and was seen driving a shiny new Mustang not too much later :facepalm, so I'll go out on a limb and suggest that maybe it has the necessary flexibility to maintain funding donations for a web forum?

 

[Notebook]

Strangely I hadn't heard about Patreon stuff, guess its not big in the UK?

Was looking for some calculus and related tutorials and this guy seemed to be popular:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoHhuummRZaIVX7bD4t2czg

Watched a few and he has a good teaching style.
Still subscribing, don't know how long I will. My relationship with maths is a bit of a sine-wave...

 

[Lucy]

I've heard of Patreon, a few denizens of YouTube I follow take contributions off people for premium services, so that model does tally somewhat with our donation model at it exists.

Kickstarter and Indiegogo are more for Projects, like developing a game or an app or something, and you promise people a copy of it when it's done, or some bigger reward. I can't see how we'd manipulate it into something like that.

 

[Marijn]

I've considered donating quite a few times, but I am reluctant to use a creditcard for this. That might be something cutural. But we (the Dutch) still consider creditcards as a means for emergency situations. Not for normal recurring payments.

This list illustrates that the use of creditcards is common in North America, but not so in mainland Europe: https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/

 

[Artlav]

But we (the Dutch) still consider creditcards as a means for emergency situations.

Credit card as a loan one? Or a regular one?

Here in Russia all such cards are called credit cards, regardless of whether it's a debit card (your money only) or an actual credit card (loan from a bank).
Is it similar in the Netherlands?

 

[Marijn]

Is it similar in the Netherlands?

In the Netherlands, we have bankcards and creditcards. With a bankcard, you can withdraw money from your bankaccount down to a set limit (so this could include a loan). A creditcard is always a loan and you repay an amount each month including significant interest.

Creditcards aren't common here. I wouldn't buy groceries with it. It's just a backup payment method for when being on holiday or something or when you need to pay something and the bank account doesn't hold enough funds. So it's mainly for backup and emergencies. Not for causal payments.

 

[Artlav]

Interesting.
I suspect that there might be a multi-layer translation issue here, since what you called bankcard sounds like something a recurring payment system like donations would accept just fine.

 

[kuddel]

Regarding the "payment type", I did like PayPal because I didn't had to create another account (patreon or "whatever") to donate to the forum. As PayPal is very common among internet users that is/was a big benefit (my opinion).

Patreon however would need me to create such an account,
only seems to allow regular donations (monthly or so)
and might not be practical for single-donations (although I am not sure about this last point)

Another thing I read here:

In return for the service, Patreon charges a commission of 5/8/12% of monthly income (depending on plan) and transaction fees of 2.9% + $0.30 for payments over $3 or 5% + $0.10 for payments of $3 or less.

...may I ask what fees PayPal currently charges?

 

[Lucy]

Regarding the "payment type", I did like PayPal because I didn't had to create another account (patreon or "whatever") to donate to the forum. As PayPal is very common among internet users that is/was a big benefit (my opinion).

Patreon however would need me to create such an account,
only seems to allow regular donations (monthly or so)
and might not be practical for single-donations (although I am not sure about this last point)

Another thing I read here:


...may I ask what fees PayPal currently charges?

Sure. I've attached a screenshot from a recent 5USD donation.





Paypal charged us 48 cents to process this donation, which is approximately 9.6% of the donation itself.


On larger donations, this seems to back off a little, and the fee becomes 3.9%, looking at some older donations of around 100USD.


It is possible to operate differently within PayPal, but they refuse to recognise our setup as a non-profit organisation - hence all the faffing, historically.

 

[Lucy]

In the Netherlands, we have bankcards and creditcards. With a bankcard, you can withdraw money from your bankaccount down to a set limit (so this could include a loan). A creditcard is always a loan and you repay an amount each month including significant interest.

Creditcards aren't common here. I wouldn't buy groceries with it. It's just a backup payment method for when being on holiday or something or when you need to pay something and the bank account doesn't hold enough funds. So it's mainly for backup and emergencies. Not for causal payments.

In the UK we have debit and credit cards. Debit cards let you spend the money you have already in your bank electronically, up to and including any pre-agreed limit with your bank. Credit cards let you spend money you don't already have, usually at a fairly high interest rate.


Paypal accepts both. I myself have never owned a credit card, because I know I'd find the convenient access to credit too tempting, when there are things the family want I don't currently have the money for, though credit costs more in the long term. But my debit card is backed by VISA, and I've never found it not suitable for purchasing things online. I don't know how things generally are elsewhere.

 

[Marijn]

In the Netherlands, you can't buy something online with your debitcard.

For online purchases, we mostly use iDEAL these days: https://www.ideal.nl/en/

iDeal basicly fills a template with everything set-up for a money transfer at the payer's bank. So'll you click iDeal, select your own bank, log into your thrusted bank account and click ok.

I was bringing this up because I suspect more people won't use their creditcard for donations, even when they are willing and able.

If you have an English webshop and want to sell to Dutch customers.. Then you need to offer iDeal. You won't sell much if you don't, even when the products are cheaper than everywhere else.

 

[Lucy]

I've considered donating quite a few times, but I am reluctant to use a creditcard for this. That might be something cutural. But we (the Dutch) still consider creditcards as a means for emergency situations. Not for normal recurring payments.

This list illustrates that the use of creditcards is common in North America, but not so in mainland Europe: https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/

Credit card as a loan one? Or a regular one?

Here in Russia all such cards are called credit cards, regardless of whether it's a debit card (your money only) or an actual credit card (loan from a bank).
Is it similar in the Netherlands?

In the Netherlands, we have bankcards and creditcards. With a bankcard, you can withdraw money from your bankaccount down to a set limit (so this could include a loan). A creditcard is always a loan and you repay an amount each month including significant interest.

Creditcards aren't common here. I wouldn't buy groceries with it. It's just a backup payment method for when being on holiday or something or when you need to pay something and the bank account doesn't hold enough funds. So it's mainly for backup and emergencies. Not for causal payments.

Interesting.
I suspect that there might be a multi-layer translation issue here, since what you called bankcard sounds like something a recurring payment system like donations would accept just fine.

In the Netherlands, you can't buy something online with your debitcard.

For online purchases, we mostly use iDEAL these days: https://www.ideal.nl/en/

iDeal basicly fills a template with everything set-up for a money transfer at the payer's bank. So'll you click iDeal, select your own bank, log into your thrusted bank account and click ok.

I was bringing this up because I suspect more people won't use their creditcard for donations, even when they are willing and able.

If you have an English webshop and want to sell to Dutch customers.. Then you need to offer iDeal. You won't sell much if you don't, even when the products are cheaper than everywhere else.

Thanks for the info on this. At the moment, I think we're only able to support PayPal - there isn't actually a bank account behind the scenes powering things, so we just keep all the money in the PayPal account itself.


I'm not sure what would be involved in extending our system to be able to take donations from other providers, but it's definitely something I'll consider.

 

[Marijn]

I'll check the PayPal options. If there's no major obstacle, I'll donate. I've been using the forum for more than 10 years now, so I think I should.

 

[kuddel]

..., so I think I should.

You should - if you could

 

[IronRain]

I'll check the PayPal options. If there's no major obstacle, I'll donate. I've been using the forum for more than 10 years now, so I think I should.

That’s awesome, thanks!

You can setup paypal so that it will use your debitcard. I’m going to contact iDeal/brokers to see if they can help us with this, but the contracts aren’t cheap IIRC.

 

[tblaxland]

Thanks everyone for their contributions so far :thumbup: Xyon could be a politician for his fund raising skills...

The forum should have a bar at the top of the page that shows donation progress against our monthly goal. It should only disappear on the rare occasion that we exceed our goal. I'm not here very often these days, but if people aren't seeing it, let me know and we can look into it.

Otherwise, g'day and nice to see you all again

 

[Marijn]

That’s awesome, thanks!

No thanks. Thank you guys for running the forum.

Made a one time donation using creditcard.

 

[Enjo]

Dear mods and admins,

I own a couple of apartments and other stuff, that generate positive cash flow, as well as I get my due raises. I could easily finance the whole costs each month but if you’re wondering why I don’t do it, here are my points:
1) Charity:
I felt cheated, after you raised funds for the first time specifically to cover forum costs, you suddenly wanted to donate the excess money to charity, which was a break of the contract. By the way, the loudest proponents of this idea didn’t donate a single cent! In the end you didn’t let the non-productive members decide what should be done with my hard earned money, so we’re even here. It did however cost me a lot of nerves to even discuss such obvious topics with all these SJWs, to whom you gave enough fuel in the first place.

2) The case of the mathematician Keith from Hong Kong:
Keith, having posted many mathematical derivations and ideas, decided to delete all of his posts for an unknown reason. Your hypothesis – he got annoyed by one or more members. My hypothesis – he could have been persecuted by the Chinese government. Whoever is right on this one, I think it is his choice whether he wants to keep his posts or not. Your argumentation was, that as soon as he posts something on the O-F, it becomes the property of O-F (sic!) So are you a non-profit organization, or do you collect value in form of posts’ content as a forum asset, assuming it’s yours to take?

3) Last time I offered on the forum, on a similar occasion, democracy weighted by the sum of given person’s donation, my post was deleted and I was accused of flame baiting. Quite an accusation for just offering an alternative, that you’re just not accustomed with. In one of my apartments I have more voting power from the neighbor below me, just because I have slightly thinner walls, giving way for more area to pay for, thus more voting power, and everybody has to accept it.
The weighted democracy would have helped the community to get rid of major jerks, or at least peel their nails, before the normal people (including donators) left your forum for good. Your choice, but if you want play with the toys only by yourself, I won’t spend my family’s funds to buy them for you.

Enclosing here, it should also be valued, that you guys do donate your precious time into the forum, to keep it running by updating it and fighting off spam. I propose you to add that cherry on top of this service and try to lay tracks for solutions to come, instead of just pushing the train without tracks underneath.

 

[Face]

I felt cheated, after you raised funds for the first time specifically to cover forum costs, you suddenly wanted to donate the excess money to charity, which was a break of the contract.

An interesting view. I never thought of donations being contracts TBH, but I can see what you mean with the feelings.

 

[jedidia]

An interesting view. I never thought of donations being contracts TBH, but I can see what you mean with the feelings.

Coming from a humanitarian background, it kind of is, and kind of isn't... The legalisms are extremely vague to be honest, but generally it's treated as a contract for "best-effort delivery". I.e. it is the duty of the one receiving the donation to do his best to use funds to the intent they were given in, but if for some reason that is no longer viable or practical, you are totally free to repurpose the money. If those purposes are self-serving a disgruntled donor would still have the recourse of suing for embezzlement, as he always has, but other than that, there's not much that can be done, and in fact should be done. In most cases this happens, repurposing is the best way to ensure the money doesn't get wasted.