Discussion A REAL Delta Glider (well, almost)

Fabri91

Donator
Donator
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
2,179
Reaction score
234
Points
78
Location
Valmorea
Website
www.fabri91.eu
Sorry, didn't make myself clear, I should really be asleep by now :)

I meant that, should the mass distribution vary greatly from a fully fueled to a dry situation, wouldn't it be better to design the spaceplane so that it (=the mass distribution/location of cg in relation to the center of ligt) is best during reentry, where we have a greater aerodynamic stress, and be acceptable during take-off, since we wouldn't "fly" for a long time in that phase?
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Well, yes. But as I said, there are other design factors (such as radiation, for example) that one can't escape, and thus, it is better to work around those at a compromise or even a disadvatage to performance in other aspects of the flight, because aspects of the design would be far more problematic otherwise.
 

NuttyPro67

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Portland
Does it really have to be stable cg-wise? Many modern fighters have a cg that's located very far back, and remain flyable thanks to fly by wire controls. In orbiter it would be possible to position the cg more forward than it would be and then pretend it had a fbw system, for the sake of doability.

Fly-by-wire controls just make flying a somewhat tail heavy plane possible. Like anything else in engineering, there is a tolerance level for nose heavy/tail heavy in each direction. At some point, the plane is either too tail heavy or too nose heavy in order to remain under control. I found in my tests with R/C planes that it's much easier to fly a tail heavy plane under power, it often becomes uncontrollable once you let off the throttle. So I would agree with your statement that it's best to have the aircraft MORE tail heavy on ascent than in descent, if that's possible with your design.
 

Sky Captain

New member
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
945
Reaction score
0
Points
0
So I would agree with your statement that it's best to have the aircraft MORE tail heavy on ascent than in descent, if that's possible with your design.

Is it even possible with engines on the back and propellant tanks somewhere in the middle. The vessel would naturally tend be more tail heavy with empty tanks and nose heavy with full tanks.
 

Axel

Drive Technician
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
239
Reaction score
0
Points
0
@T.Neo
I checked the net about tank sizes, you are right when you use pure LH2, this tank has to be 3x the STS tank, when we want same fuel mass. Because 80% of its mass is heavy LOX, from the 720mT.
You sayed that you maybe implement an airbreathing feature. Then i would use alltimes air as working fluid. Pure nitrogene should although work in a NTR, but with the extra O2 in the air it could be a kind of LANTR, for more thrust but im not sure. And it would be very safe, air is not explosive, for a case of crash landing or when a micrometeorite hits the internal tank and gasses are streaming out. In space the crew could use the "air fuel" for breathing! This would extend mission time by dimensions. Further you can use it for the RCS, most RCS are runnung by nitrogene. So the complet shuttle would be very flexible, with a crossfeed feature. And air you can make liquid too, so relativ small tanks should be possible too like for methane or maybe smaller. But i dont know the ISp of air in a NTR or nitrogene, is there a side in the internet or a calculation rule for getting this? How did you get your Isp for methane?

But methane is not very envoirentmently friendly, its mutch stronger than CO2 for the glass house effect. Because there is no chemical reaction at a NTR, so the methane would go in atmophere alltimes in its unchanged kind. The guy some posts before spoke only about "an emergency vent" of the methane, but we went it alltimes by the NTR. With a very limited number of your shuttles no problem, but not when there are many flights per week from many organisations. When you not want nitrogene/air, then use better a similar fuel to methane, but a non-glass-house-effective fuel.
 
Last edited:

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Because 80% of its mass is heavy LOX, from the 720mT.

Yes. LOX is nice and dense... it is actually denser than water.

The ET carries six times as much LOX as it does LH2, but the LH2 tank has nearly three times the volume of the LOX tank.

In short, LH2 is an extremely poor propellant density wise.

Then i would use alltimes air as working fluid.

No. Nuclear jet propulsion is too hard... it requires higher temperatures and worse material conditions, because it is harder to heat a gaseous working fluid. This now makes my nuclear engine far more difficult to build and operate, and is also why building a nuclear airplane is so impractical.

If I go airbreathing, I will use air as a working fluid... but I will just use it as a working fluid in a manner similar to any other jet engine, rather than using nuclear fuel.

Pure nitrogene should although work in a NTR

I don't think the exhaust velocity would be all that good though...

but with the extra O2 in the air it could be a kind of LANTR, for more thrust but im not sure.

I doubt it, considering that O2-N2 isn't exactly the best chemical propellant out there...

And it would be very safe, air is not explosive, for a case of crash landing or when a micrometeorite hits the internal tank and gasses are streaming out.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter when it's cryogenic, liquid air. When you crash it all spills and vaporises and whatnot, and it isn't fun.

MMOD should not be a problem for propellant leakage... small particles will likely be stopped by the double hull that is present on many areas of the vehicle which functions somewhat like a whipple shield. Regardless, on-orbit the propellant will be depleted anyway.

In space the crew could use the "air fuel" for breathing!

Why? That is a real waste, if over a 20 day mission a 6 person crew only uses about 8 kilograms of air, considering all the recycling and whatnot that goes on.

To use a single ton of air they would already be waiting in space for nearly 7 years.

Further you can use it for the RCS, most RCS are runnung by nitrogene.

No. Most RCS systems run on hypergolic propellants, namely oxidizer blends based on nitrogen tetroxide, and fuel blends based on monomethylhydrazine and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine. They are pressure fed, but AFAIK the pressurant is helium, at least predominantly.

These compounds are highly toxic however, and I'm thinking of rather using pressurised gaseous oxygen and kerosene... apparently Buran used this combination, so it must be viable. It'd also be far, far more mundane than those horrible toxic propellants.

its mutch stronger than CO2 for the glass house effect.

It's known as the greenhouse effect. :thumbup:

Because there is no chemical reaction at a NTR

Not inside the engine as a facet of it's operation, no. But it would be silly to assume that a huge exhaust plume of flammable gas, at hundreds, thousands of degrees, even, would not ignite in the atmosphere. It would be pretty brilliant visually, and I actually worry about any negative effects it could potentially have.

At high altitudes, on the other hand, there's not enough oxygen to burn the methane (see Falcon 1 launch vids, at high altitude you'll see the engine flame fade away). But there is more: at those temperatures, methane starts to disassociate anyway, seperating into it's component parts- something that actually increases the exhaust velocity. So release of methane into the environment might not be that problematic after all.

When you not want nitrogene/air, then use better a similar fuel to methane, but a non-glass-house-effective fuel.

A liquid air fuel is silly. Not only does the high particle mass bring down exhaust velocity, but it has to be kept colder than methane, and has chemical problems with the NTR (I worry about oxygen corrosion). That and obtaining it might be problematic.

Liquid methane already exists, and is an abundant energy source. It's known as Liquified Natural Gas. It's readily available, and if it needs to be, say, further refined, it won't take as much energy or money as liquifying air. And on top of that, I can burn it as well... it opens up use for methane fuel for my airbreathing engines.

Nevertheless, I am still looking for a new propellant... the requirements are that it be dense (the denser the better), yield a good exhaust velocity (the higher the better), easy to handle, cheap, and environmentally friendly (i.e. not toxic or carcinogenic).
 

Axel

Drive Technician
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
239
Reaction score
0
Points
0
@T.Neo
Yes most RCS fuels are very toxic and N2 is a possible fuel, that was allready used for satelites. It has a bad efficiency when we just expand it for RCS but we have enough of it :thumbup:.
Ok i forget that methane burns because it interact with O2 of the atmosphere, after its passage of the NTR.

I found a nice website for nuclear engines:
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/enginelist.php#Gaseous_Core_Nuclear_Thermal_Rocket_

There at beginning you can find the Isp of some working fluids. Its very intresting. Methane has 6318m/s and nitrogene only 2649m/s. Your methane seems to be really the one other fuel after LH2. But there you can read that methane clog the reactor with soot deposits!
And that a NTR would be secure/clean, when we can hold the uranium inside the chamber of a solid core NTR, by a centrifuge.
 
Last edited:

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Yes most RCS fuels are very toxic and N2 is a possible fuel, that was allready used for satelites. It has a bad efficiency when we just expand it for RCS but we have enough of it .

Uh... no. N2 is not a possible fuel because N2 cold-gas efficiency is too low.

I can't shoehorn supertanker LN2 capacity into my spaceplane. :p

But im a little bit confused, you said that N2 would be a bad fuel for a NTR because its very heavy, but methane is more heavy! In our atmosphere it goes to the ground (so its heavier than air when not liquid) and builds explosive lakes there and its molar mass is 16g/mol and N2 has only 14g/mol! Its right that N2 has a mutch greater density of 807kg/m³ (when liquid) and methane only 1,17kg/m³, but i see that as an advantage, we would need a very small tank only.

No. Methane is a lighter than air gas... it rises. Please remember that N2 is found in diatomic form, so it has a molecular mass of roughly 28, not 14.

Liquid methane is 1.17 kg/m^3? When? Wikipedia gives a value of 416 kg/m^3...

It is not advantageous to have a less dense propellant. ;)

And at last, a methane molecule is made of 1 carbon atome with 6 electrons and 4 hydrogen atoms with 1 electron = 10.
A nitrogene atom has only 7 electrons.

Please don't tell me, that you are counting the mass of the electrons... :shifty:

The bonds between the atoms are a different story, but methane actually disassociates (at least partially) at those temperatures, liberating the hydrogen atoms. They have a very low atomic weight and thus contribute to a higher exhaust velocity.

liquid nitrogene is not water and we would make it easy gaseously before it passes the reactor.

Yes... but that is not the only problem. I can have liquid lead as a propellant, that doesn't automatically make it high performance.

GUIpep states that an engine using hydrogen, heated to 2000 K, will have an exhaust velocity of 14 298 m/s. This is close to the theoretical ultimate for a solid-core nuclear rocket using hydrogen.

It states that an engine using methane, heated to 2000 K, will have an exhaust velocity of 11 071 m/s.

And it states that nitrogen, gives an exhaust velocity of only 3971 m/s. While it is rather errant, considering the comparison to hydrogen and methane, it does somewhat make sense. The molecular mass is obviously going to reduce exhaust velocity.
 
Last edited:

Axel

Drive Technician
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
239
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Ups, yes you are right, i found itself on net, and edited my post, but to late you answered at my :lol:.
But check the link of my post before! Its a very intresting side! Go to "Engine List" there is a drive table.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/enginelist.php
 
Last edited:

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Yes, that drive table is very useful and I actually used it to figure out what exhaust velocity would be appropriate. :)
 

NuttyPro67

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Portland
.....
Nevertheless, I am still looking for a new propellant... the requirements are that it be dense (the denser the better), yield a good exhaust velocity (the higher the better), easy to handle, cheap, and environmentally friendly (i.e. not toxic or carcinogenic).

Wow, you've skilfully located the exact same problem every single rocket designer has ever encountered. Your either going to get cheap and easy with low ISP or exotic and needs to be kept in a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_external_tank"]2 ton ice chest[/ame] with a high ISP.

Every time a space agency has the choice, they have chosen the latter. Seems like a higher ISP is worth covering half your space ship with foam.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I am already covering my propellant tanks with insulation. My propellant is cryogenic, even if it isn't as cold as LH2.

Insulation and even cost of production isn't the problem with LH2. Density is; LH2, has a seriously bad density for a rocket propellant. One cubic meter will contain 1000 kilograms of water. But a cubic meter filled with hydrogen is only 67.8 kilograms.

And I actually have it worse, with a nuclear engine, because all the propellant is LH2. On a hydrolox vehicle, most of the propellant mass is in the oxygen, with is far denser than LH2.

Methane looks like a good compromise to me... it is six times more dense than liquid hydrogen, still has quite a high exhaust velocity, is storable at higher temperatures, and is already abundant commercially, which is advantageous regardless of any potential refining that would have to occur of the propellant.
 

Axel

Drive Technician
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
239
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I suggest you to use a LANTR engine, so you can use LOX and LH2. The Isp is nearly the same like for CH4, but the thrust is higher (LOX is a really afterburner) and its more envoirentmently friendly. The tank size should be the same too to LCH4, because the very dense LOX compensates the bigger LH2 tanks.
And for emergency case, you could run a small chemical engine with same fuel, when the reactor has a critical failure. With pure LCH4 its not possible!
And remember CH4 is a nasty fuel, methane clog the reactor with soot deposits!
The only thing is, that LH2 continuesly leave the tank, beacuse the atoms are very small. But thats not really a problem, as you want a pure surface to LEO taxi with short LEO stay time, i guess not longer than 2 weeks.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I suggest you to use a LANTR engine, so you can use LOX and LH2. The Isp is nearly the same like for CH4, but the thrust is higher (LOX is a really afterburner) and its more envoirentmently friendly. The tank size should be the same too to LCH4, because the very dense LOX compensates the bigger LH2 tanks.

Good- so I get no tradeoff? Because my tanks are around the same volume (and thus have a similar mass, perhaps more with LH2 insulation and other handling), and perhaps I even need a higher fuel mass, if my exhaust velocity is sufficiently lower than that of a pure CH4 engine.

But I also have more complicated engine plumbing and fuel production techniques. Which actually makes things worse.

its more envoirentmently friendly

I don't care how much more environmentally friendly it is. I've already explained that external combustion and methane dissasociation will reduce the capacity of the exhaust products as a greenhouse gas.

And for emergency case, you could run a small chemical engine with same fuel, when the reactor has a critical failure. With pure LCH4 its not possible!

By the same token I also have a more complex engine that opens up new failure possibilities.

And just because you feed oxygen into the engine as well, doesn't mean you can turn the reactor off and run on chemical alone... the flows and gas patterns and whatnot change without the reactor running and it would be a whole other task to design the engine to run with or without it.

And remember CH4 is a nasty fuel, methane clog the reactor with soot deposits!

I know, and I don't like it one bit.

On the other hand, at least I need to only deal with reducing propellant, and not oxidising propellant as well.

The only thing is, that LH2 continuesly leave the tank, beacuse the atoms are very small. But thats not really a problem, as you want a pure surface to LEO taxi with short LEO stay time, i guess not longer than 2 weeks.

LH2 boiloff is more of a problem on the ground, really.

Propellant loss on-orbit isn't a problem because the tanks should be depleted.
 

Axel

Drive Technician
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
239
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I even need a higher fuel mass, if my exhaust velocity is sufficiently lower than that of a pure CH4 engine

The exhaust velocity of pure CH4 is lower, than LH2 or LOX+LH2.
But I also have more complicated engine plumbing and fuel production techniques. Which actually makes things worse

Theres nothing complicated, after 50 years of chemical engine development.

And just because you feed oxygen into the engine as well, doesn't mean you can turn the reactor off and run on chemical alone... the flows and gas patterns and whatnot change without the reactor running and it would be a whole other task to design the engine to run with or without it.

The chemical engine is an extra nozzele, very small and unable to propell the shuttle to orbit ect, its only for deorbit burn or OMS or maybe to make a glide a little bit longer. What is your emergency plan if the NTR fails? You need a plan B, there are to many spacecrafts out there, with the rule "Fly or Die". Thats an old rule from space shuttle era and cold war. Today you need safety systems, and redundant systems.
What fuel production? You planed to produce the fuel onbord?
And its more complicated to turn fast on/off a NTR, than a chemical engine. IA NTR needs a warmup time, when micrometeorites or bigger parts are coming it could be to late.

On the other hand, at least I need to only deal with reducing propellant, and not oxidising propellant as well.

Why? The LOX injection is at the end of the engine, after the reactor direct in the H2 exhaust. There are no oxidising effects on the shuttle. Maybe only the nozzle itself, but we would build it of stainless material.
 
Last edited:

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The exhaust velocity of pure CH4 is lower, than LH2 or LOX+LH2.

Yes and no. I actually scaled up the exhaust velocity to that of LANTR in LH2 only mode (as opposed to something similar to NERVA). My exhaust velocity is 7 198 m/s, that of LANTR in LOX-injection mode is 6 347 m/s- 851 m/s lower.

Theres nothing complicated, after 50 years of chemical engine development.

If there is "nothing complicated", I then politely ask you to procure an SSME, take it apart to the last nut and bolt, photograph every part, reassemble it flawlessley, and make sure that it does not kill anyone over the course of its operation.

The chemical engine is an extra nozzele, very small and unable to propell the shuttle to orbit ect, its only for deorbit burn or OMS or maybe to make a glide a little bit longer.

An... extra nozzle? An extra engine? I can't afford the mass or space.

What is your emergency plan if the NTR fails? You need a plan B, there are to many spacecrafts out there, with the rule "Fly or Die".

There are two engines onboard, and it's for reasons other than the fact that it looks cool. If one engine fails, the other is able to either able to take the vehicle to orbit or facilitate an abort, depending on the stage of the flight and the severity of any damage.

This is not fly or die, like STS. For one, I have a far better chance of a successful abort if there is a mishap within the first 2 minutes of launch.

Thats an old rule from space shuttle era and cold war. Today you need safety systems, and redundant systems.

Uh... no. STS has extensive safety systems, problem is that there are things within the intrinsic design of the vehicle that make it unsafe.

I have redundant systems, starting with my redundant engines. I don't need the parasitic mass of a chemical engine, to cut into my payload and/or my ability to manouver.

What fuel production? You planed to produce the fuel onbord?

Of course not, but that does not mean that propellant will fall out of the sky...

The cheaper the propellant is to make, store and handle, the better, obviously.

And its more complicated to turn fast on/off a NTR, than a chemical engine. IA NTR needs a warmup time, when micrometeorites or bigger parts are coming it could be to late.

Where do I need to make a huge velocity change to avoid "micrometeorites or bigger parts"?

You do know that the SSMEs don't have an air restart capability, right? My plan is to shut the engines down after launch- air restart capability or not. I don't need to go doing space laser manuvers on-orbit, that is what the OMS is for.

Why? The LOX injection is at the end of the engine, after the reactor direct in the H2 exhaust. There are no oxidising effects on the shuttle. Maybe only the nozzle itself, but we would build it of stainless material.

It isn't like LOX suddenly only becomes corrosive when it leaves the nozzle... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
That is interesting, but not applicable.

That is a chemical engine with around half the performance of my solid core nuclear thermal engine.
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I've compiled a .pdf with specifications and a design outline. Suggestions, observations and criticism are welcome. :cheers:
 
Last edited:
Top