Did REAL innovation die in 1960?

Urwumpe

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Well, packet based communication was also a first during the 1970s, which enabled most long range communication between computers and terminals, as it largely simplified routing. It is used today nearly everywhere.

Also, satellite navigation was also a new idea, after 1960, AFAIK, with the transit system. You could say it is just an extension of radio navigation from the Inter-WW years, but it was a major change in application.
 

Linguofreak

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Um... As someone who has spent most of my time in the Southern US (but do not consider myself a "Southerner") let me try and make a correction here. While I admit there is some entanglement of racism and prejudice in Southern culture associated with the confederate flag, the people who run around in old uniforms and flags are doing it out of pride for ancestral heritage, not out of hate.

Pretty much what my Dad said when I started ranting about it as we were driving home. It sounds logical enough to me and that's why I said in my post, "And perhaps the townsfolk weren't really actively and hatefully racist."

But there are lots of other things about the Old South to be proud of than the Confederacy. The Confederacy only existed for a few years, and is generally associated in the rest of the nation, rightly or not, with an institution that is more cause for shame than pride. It may well be that these people aren't racist or secessionist, but they are showing disregard for the fact that the Confederacy is a symbol of racism and secessionism among blacks and northerners. For northerners it's an insult to the US flag to honor the Confederate flag alongside it. Until they learn to show some respect for that, those wounds will probably never really heal. And they have to do it, legislating against displaying the Confederate flag won't help. They have to have the choice to display it and choose not to.

Keep in mind that in the South the American Civil War was fought for independence and State's rights, not over slavery.

A popular view in the South, and echoed by people that I know aren't racist, secessionist or southern, but I don't buy it. It creates a false dichotomy. Yes, the civil war was fought over independence and states' rights, but the entire reason independence and states' rights were even an issue was because the South wanted carte-blanche to practice slavery. The war was fought over independence and states' rights *and* slavery. Independence and states rights *because of* slavery.

Old flags and outfits are not what you have to be afraid of,

And I'm not afraid of them, as long as the guys wearing them aren't burning crosses on my lawn and calling me a "n*** lover."

But those flags and uniforms do prevent wounds from healing.

its the evil thoughts and actions of people,

But sometimes evil manifests itself not in being actively malevolent, but simply in not caring about something one should care about. The Confederate flag has a lot of negative symbolism outside of white southern culture, and as long as white southern culture clings to that flag, it will keep ripping open old wounds.

and you get as much if not more of that in "Yankees" who would never even think of wearing a gray uniform or waving a confederate flag.

Yes. I agree. I am very much afraid of trends I see among my fellow Yankees. And if southerners cling to the Confederacy, they will incite that in Yankees, and also, in many cases, will be a pariah in situations where they could be an example.
 

joeybigO

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Okay so i'm thinking about this whole thing:

So what have we done lately since the 60's?

Well we may not have made anything new but we've made it a hell of a lot smaller.

Did you know that a jump drive can hold more memory than the whole apollo system, including the guidance.

The cell phone is another example of things getting better, the cell phone invented in the 80's got way smaller.

If you look at what it brings to light is that now we don't have to worry about carrying a whole lot of weight to the moon, now we can make something that holds about 7 or 8 people with about the same amount of weight, and not all that wiring that might have problems. Or carry a mechanic who can fix the wiring that might have problems.

Quality has got a whole lot better including cameras, lights and a whole hodge podge of things.

Oh yeah and we built HST.

What did they have in the 60's?
 

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I'd say that one important thing happened since then:

The age of information technology
Nobody could have even dreamed in 1960 of a world, where anyone can access information from anywhere on/around the earth. (Remember, they have internet on the ISS). If the world keeps going like this, then the print and postal industry might disappear entirely (poor mailmen). My new school, instead of textbooks, lends out laptops to every student and teacher.

Also, military tech seems to have advanced. Nobody in 1960 could have thought of using lasers to kill ballistic missiles and making tanks out of depleted uranium.

"You can't say civilization don't advance; for in every war, they kill you in a new way"

But yeah, in my opinion, we're due; there are great achievements soon to come like landing on Mars, a cure for cancer and many other things.

@JoeybigO: Yeah, i heard somewhere that a common graphing calculator which can be obtained for $300, has more processing power and memory than the mult-million-dollar, then-state-of-the-art AGC.
 

Andy44

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Also, military tech seems to have advanced. Nobody in 1960 could have thought of using lasers to kill ballistic missiles and making tanks out of depleted uranium.

Oh yes they did! Look at any comic book of the era or read any sci fi.
 

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It may well be that these people aren't racist or secessionist, but they are showing disregard for the fact that the Confederacy is a symbol of racism and secessionism among blacks and northerners. For northerners it's an insult to the US flag to honor the Confederate flag alongside it. Until they learn to show some respect for that, those wounds will probably never really heal. And they have to do it, legislating against displaying the Confederate flag won't help. They have to have the choice to display it and choose not to.

Such a proposition exemplifies the concept of "political correctness" - that the "correct" meaning of the Confederate flag is what "blacks and northerners" interpret it to mean, rather than what southerners intend it to mean, and that southerners are morally obliged to refrain from using their honored symbols, because that would "offend" people who prefer to "disregard" and not "show some respect for" what those symbols represent to those who are using them.

Refer to the reaction to one minor politician's use of the word "niggardly" (meaning "stingy," "parsimonious"), for which that politician was publicly condemned and dismissed from his job, with an argued justification that, never mind what the word actually means, what matters is that some people regarded it as "offensive," and that their false belief about the meaning of the word, and their dislike of its use, was more valuable than the truth of it.

This, furthermore, pertains to a notably popular philosophy of "deconstructionism," which proposes that the "correct" understanding of a behavior or verbal expression, is that which is interpreted by an observer, rather than what was intended by the source.

Sometimes, one must heal one's own wounds, and deal with the world as it is.
 
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Linguofreak

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Such a proposition exemplifies the concept of "political correctness" - that the "correct" meaning of the Confederate flag is what "blacks and northerners" interpret it to mean, rather than what southerners intend it to mean, and that southerners are morally obliged to refrain from using their honored symbols, because that would "offend" people who prefer to "disregard" and not "show some respect for" what those symbols represent to those who are using them.

And, however much PCness might drive us bananas, sometimes it's right. You also have to take into account what the symbol meant to those who originally used it. Even if I take the assumption that the whole "The Civil war wasn't about slavery" line is true (I find it hard to swallow, but I'll allow it for the sake of arguement), the fact still remains that the war *was* very much about secessionism, and about disloyalty to the United States. Now, since we've taken the assumption that the War wasn't about slavery, we may assume that the North had no moral superiority over the South, and that the CSA was just as right or wrong to secede from the USA as the USA was to secede from the British Empire. If we assume that the USA was right in seceding, then under our previous assumptions the CSA was also right, and thus for the CSA to be disloyal was not a bad thing. But the flag of the CSA remains a symbol of that disloyalty, and of the wish on the part of the southerners of the 1860's not to not be part of the USA, even though, on the assumption that the North had no moral superiority over the South, it may be a time-honored symbol. But since it is a symbol of disloyalty (however justified) to the USA, it has no place at ceremonies (such as 4th of July celebrations or citizenship ceremonies, or citizenship ceremonies held on the 4th of July) that celebrate loyalty to the USA (Any more than I'd wave a US flag around at a British citizenship ceremony, or at any other British patriotic event). Under best-case assumptions, the Confederate flag is a time-honored symbol to be used by those who wish the confederacy still existed and want to be part of it. The US flag is a symbol for those who want to be part of the US. But the two don't mix, expecially in situations involving patriotism or loyalty to one or the other.

If we drop the assumption that the Civil War wasn't about slavery (the reader may do so or not as he wishes), then the North did have moral superiority in the war, the Confederate flag was seen by the southerners as a symbol of their right to continue slavery, and is thus *not* a time-honored symbol as what it originally symbolized is not and should not be held in honor, and it is not appropriate for display anywhere.

Refer to the reaction to one minor politician's use of the word "niggardly" (meaning "stingy," "parsimonious"), for which that politician was publicly condemned and dismissed from his job, with an argued justification that, never mind what the word actually means, what matters is that some people regarded it as "offensive," and that their false belief about the meaning of the word, and their dislike of its use, was more valuable than the truth of it.

And, of course, sometimes PCness is dead wrong. "Niggardly" and "n****r" are words of completely different origin and meaning. One is of scandinavian origin and describes behavior, the other is of romance origin and describes skin color. The politician in question can be blamed for stupid word choice around liberals, but not wrongdoing.

Deciding your position based on the will of the crowd, whether by giving in to PCness or by avoiding it like the plague, tends to lead you to really bad decisions. Which is why I form my opinions on what I think is right, not on whether the general public likes them or doesn't like them.

This, furthermore, pertains to a notably popular philosophy of "deconstructionism," which proposes that the "correct" understanding of a behavior or verbal expression, is that which is interpreted by an observer, rather than what was intended by the source.

You have to deal with how it is interpreted by all concerned, and how justified they are in interpreting it that way.

Human language, behaviour, and symbols are all as shifty, fluid, and passing as we are. But they are used to describe truths that are solid, consistent, and absolute. Trying to extend the flexibility of human symbols to eternal truths leads to the pleothora of bad ideas that come with moral relativism, postmodernism, and deconstructionism. Trying to pin the constancy of eternal truths onto human symbols leads to interpreting the rest of the world and the rest of history in terms of ones own time, culture, and personality, which tends to lead to just as many bad ideas as postmodernism.
 

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@Liguofreak

Thank you for an intelligent and finely written response.

It seems to be a general supposition that the War-between-the-States was "about slavery." This is accurate, to some considerable extent, but it is also an oversimplification. There were, generally, significant cultural differences, and political rivalry, between the mostly agrarian southern States and notably industrial northern States, and these had manifested themselves in various political conflicts, since the beginning of the USA.

In any case, the Civil War was greatly significant not only because it resulted in the abolition of slavery. It also resulted in an essential change in the nature of the USA, from a voluntary union to a mandatory one. The consequences of this change, have been profound - virtually an end to the concept of practical Federalism. Currently, the U.S. government is enormously powerful in exerting its influence over the several States, in virtually any matter at all. Not only does the federal government really not even bother to consider, anymore, whether its laws are Constitutionally authorized, but even to the extent that it purports to do so, its methods of doing so, tend to be specious and cynical.

As one example, current Democratic Party Vice-Presidential candidate Joseph Biden is particularly noteworthy for his creation of the "Violence Against Women Act." Disregarding whether such a federal law was necessary, when all States already prohibit violent crimes, and the U.S. Constitution authorizes the federal government to address only the crimes of piracy, treason and counterfeiting, nevertheless this law, like many others, was purported to be justified under the federal government's authority to "regulate interstate commerce," with a bizarrely far-fetched explanation of how "prohibiting violence against women" is "regulating interstate commerce."

Additionally, a particularly widely-used methodology by which the federal government enforces its will throughout the States, is to threaten to withold federal funds for various things, unless State legislatures enact laws that the federal government wishes (one can further question what Constitutional authority the federal government has, to distribute such funds in the first place).

Anyway, the point is that the no-longer-voluntary association among the States, resulting from the Civil War, leaves little if any recourse for their citizens to oppose the arrogance of the federal government. Symbolic rebellion can be a poor substitute, and this may include a reverent observance of the historical idea of independence, of States.

I have personally mixed-feelings, about it all. I am happy for the persistence of the Union, while recognizing the great harm to the ideals of the USA, that resulted from the methodology by which it was achieved - as I am similarly happy for the circumstances, cultural and wrt national security, resulting from the fact that the USA stretches "from sea to shining sea," while recognizing the historical, ethical problem of near-genocide of American Indians, that enabled those circumstances.

I can acknowledge and respect your perspective, regarding the inherent implication of "disloyalty," wrt displays of the Confederate flag (and similar sentiments among southerners). As an interesting coincidence, I finally got around to watching, last night, an episode of the TV show "Boston Legal" (btw, it occurs to me that William Shatner has turned out to be quite an excellent comedic actor) that I had recorded last May - which episode included a subplot in which the town of Concord, MA sought to pursue a legal claim to secede from the USA. This plot device resulted in some thought provoking dialog considering attitudes on both sides of an idea of political secession - including an inclination to take offense at such "disloyalty."

Basically, the Confederate flag does not bother me. I do not regard it as a symbol of slavery, and I have no more inclination to regard it as "disloyal," or otherwise "offensive," than I would regard black people in America wearing traditional African clothing. It is a cultural expression that I think that I can understand and, in itself, it is not objectionable. Even if it were, I could tolerate it as well as any other symbol of dissent or protest, and I recognize that it may not even be that, but merely a representation of historical veneration. You may recall that one of the most honored (by even his adversaries) military figures in U.S. history was Gen. Robert E. Lee, who - as far as I know - did not even own any slaves, was offered command of the Union armies and declined in favor of loyalty to his home State of Virginia. In fact, slave owners were a very small fraction of the population of the Confederate States, and of their armies (which even included many black people, who regarded themselves as fighting not for slavery, but for their homes and their neighbors).

I can respect the opinions of those who disagree with "Confederate sentiments," but I do not suppose that they are justified in seeking coercively to suppress such sentiments and their symbols, or even arguing, as you do, that those who hold such sentiments, are morally obliged to suppress themselves. I suppose that I would agree with you that the Confederate flag is an inappriate symbol for display at U.S. citizenship-induction ceremonies, and perhaps in some other circumstances (although I suppose that the same could be said about the display of individual State flags, in such circumstances).
 
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tl8

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This is my first post in this thread, but I think I have a good response.

After thinking about it, yes innovation died out in the 1960s.

There has been no real new ideas around. However what has been happening is integration.

More and more of everyday items are being merged together.

Who would have thought that our watches can now play communicate with each other(Mobile phones). Who would have thought that communication without wires is possible, without a 100m tower or a power station. Who would think that a PC would be in a fridge instead of the size of one.

Who would think that that Thomas Watson is right as long as you add the words: in every home.

I can go on but I hate long posts ;)
 

jamesraykenney

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Such a proposition exemplifies the concept of "political correctness" - that the "correct" meaning of the Confederate flag is what "blacks and northerners" interpret it to mean, rather than what southerners intend it to mean, and that southerners are morally obliged to refrain from using their honored symbols, because that would "offend" people who prefer to "disregard" and not "show some respect for" what those symbols represent to those who are using them.

Refer to the reaction to one minor politician's use of the word "niggardly" (meaning "stingy," "parsimonious"), for which that politician was publicly condemned and dismissed from his job, with an argued justification that, never mind what the word actually means, what matters is that some people regarded it as "offensive," and that their false belief about the meaning of the word, and their dislike of its use, was more valuable than the truth of it.

This, furthermore, pertains to a notably popular philosophy of "deconstructionism," which proposes that the "correct" understanding of a behavior or verbal expression, is that which is interpreted by an observer, rather than what was intended by the source.

Sometimes, one must heal one's own wounds, and deal with the world as it is.

And remember the recent case where the guy got reprimanded for using the term "Black Hole" to describe the office where all the paperwork went and never came out of. A black JUDGE told him that it was a racist remark... :huh:

P.S. Sorry that my first post is a political one...
But I just HATE political correctness.

P.P.S In reference to all the posts talking about the Confederate Flag...
What people tend to display is NOT the Confederate Flag... I have NEVER seen the Confederate Flag displayed ANYWHERE except museums, movies, and reinactments... It is the Battle Flag.
 

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And remember the recent case where the guy got reprimanded for using the term "Black Hole" to describe the office where all the paperwork went and never came out of. A black JUDGE told him that it was a racist remark... :huh:

Yes.

Sorry that my first post is a political one...

Oh, well...:)
This forum is actually a good place for political discussions (although it's worth keeping in mind that this is not its basic purpose), since

1) People, here, tend to be pretty smart.
2) The discussions, here, tend to be basically courteous, reasonable and often usefully informative and interesting - especially noteworthy, in contrast to some places where political ideas are...uh...discussed.
3) Welcome to the Orbiter Forum. I hope that you are finding Orbiter to be fun and a good way to learn all kinds of cool sciency stuff. [editor's note: 2 items are too few for a respectable list]

In reference to all the posts talking about the Confederate Flag...
What people tend to display is NOT the Confederate Flag... I have NEVER seen the Confederate Flag displayed ANYWHERE except museums, movies, and reinactments... It is the Battle Flag.

Right. Sorry about that. Colloquialism.


And welcome to Orbiter Forum!
 

Linguofreak

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P.P.S In reference to all the posts talking about the Confederate Flag...
What people tend to display is NOT the Confederate Flag... I have NEVER seen the Confederate Flag displayed ANYWHERE except museums, movies, and reinactments... It is the Battle Flag.

OK, technically yes. The battle flag is, though, being the flag of the Confederacy most commonly seen and recognized by non-Southerners, commonly known as "The Confederate Flag," even if this is not technically correct. But at this citizenship ceremony they had about 5 flags, and upon checking the Wikipedia article on flags of the Confederacy later that day, I was able to identify each one that I had seen. It's a couple months ago, but if memory serves they had the flags that Wikipedia identifies as the First, Second, and Third national flags, the Bonnie Blue Flag, and the one popularly known as the "Confederate Flag." So whichever flag you want to call "The Confederate Flag," it was there.

PS: According to Wikipedia, if you want to be *really* technical, the flag now known as the "Confederate Flag" was never actually flown by the Confederacy. It was a blend of the colors of the Battle Flag with the aspect ratio of the second Naval Jack. But considering that the design was fundamentally the same and the colors were only slightly different between the two, that's really splitting hairs. And the same fundamental design appears on the canton of the second and third national flags, so whatever aspect ratio and exact coloring you present it with, the design is one that was strongly associated with the Confederacy, which is basically what the discussion is about, regardless of the exact presentation of that design.
 

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And remember the recent case where the guy got reprimanded for using the term "Black Hole" to describe the office where all the paperwork went and never came out of. A black JUDGE told him that it was a racist remark... :huh:


I can just picture the scene: "Sorry, Your Honor, I meant 'an African-American Hole'"...
 

Urwumpe

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Oh yes they did! Look at any comic book of the era or read any sci fi.


I think that imagining stuff in a sci-fi novel is not the same as really doing that. Just take the example of Titanium. It is a pretty old and known element, but it was not until the 1950s, when it was possible to produce parts from it. And making a whole plane in the 1960s was an expensive prototype production process.

And producing depleted Uranium is not easy, for example. Without a massive nuclear industry, like the USA have, you would not have enough for equipping even one company of tanks with such armor. That the USA not only equip tanks, but also produce ammo from it, only shows how high the demand for high-grade uranium must still be inside the USA.
 

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I can just picture the scene: "Sorry, Your Honor, I meant 'an African-American Hole'"...

Geraldo Rivera once referred to Nelson Mandela as being (an) "African-American."


-----Posted Added-----


And producing depleted Uranium is not easy, for example. Without a massive nuclear industry, like the USA have, you would not have enough for equipping even one company of tanks with such armor. That the USA not only equip tanks, but also produce ammo from it, only shows how high the demand for high-grade uranium must still be inside the USA.

I only knew that projectiles were made out of it - not armor. It seems like kind of a bad idea, too, since my understanding is that DU is useful for weaponry, not only because of its density, but also because it is pyrophoric (it spontaneously ignites, in air); such a material would not seem to be desirable as one's surroundings, especially if getting shot at.

Also, isn't DU basically un-enriched Uranium (more U-238 than naturally), and isn't it significantly radioactive (again, less a problem with the occasional projectile, but more when it is one's constant environment)?
 

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So what have we done lately since the 60's?

In the 1980s we had Atari 2600 and a very simple space shuttle sim made by Activision. Now we have Orbiter. Before 1960s you did not have videogames.
In 1960 you had to buy a TV, stereo and typewriter. Today you can do that with your computer.
In the early 1980s I dreamed on composing music. Today I make music at home with Modplug Tracker.
If I made a music demo I would need an expensive studio recording. Today you only need software.
I always dreamed about going to space but never had the money or chance to go to NASA. Now we have Orbiter.

Before 1960s you did not have
-Cell phones
-Ipods
-Consoles

In the 1980s if I made a drawing I would at most show it to my friends. Today I can post it and show it to the world.
In the 1980s if I wanted to learn I had to buy an expensive encyclopedia that not always would contain what I am looking for.
It was a time when exchanging messages with someone from Europe was essentially impossible within a decent time frame, of decent phone bill. Today we have chat an email and forums.

If you ask me, 1960 was stone age.
 

pattersoncr

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Also, isn't DU basically un-enriched Uranium (more U-238 than naturally), and isn't it significantly radioactive (again, less a problem with the occasional projectile, but more when it is one's constant environment)?

The half-life of U238 is about 4.5 billion years. You can't get much less radioactive than that and still be radioactive. Also, it's an alpha emitter, a sheet of paper (or your skin) will stop alpha particles.
 

Urwumpe

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I only knew that projectiles were made out of it - not armor. It seems like kind of a bad idea, too, since my understanding is that DU is useful for weaponry, not only because of its density, but also because it is pyrophoric (it spontaneously ignites, in air); such a material would not seem to be desirable as one's surroundings, especially if getting shot at.

It is also a material with very high density, which makes it harder to be penetrated by projectiles. It also don't ignite normally, but only if you increase the reaction surface - just penetrating it is not enough, but once you punch through you create a small spray of burning uranium. But far less as if you are hit by a Uranium penetrator. But as the armor has a higher density because of the DU, the penetrator will have it hard to even punch through. HEAT projectiles would have it easier, but also loose a lot of power by the DU.


Also, isn't DU basically un-enriched Uranium (more U-238 than naturally), and isn't it significantly radioactive (again, less a problem with the occasional projectile, but more when it is one's constant environment)?

It is a waste product when you enrich Uranium for nuclear reactor use or for the Plutonium production. Basically, you reduce the amount of U-235 in one part of it, for increasing it in another part.
 
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