Internet Documentary "The Space Shuttle"

redneck

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yeah Ill have to watch this when I get time..good find Thanx
 

Krikkit

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You would have to define complex.

The shuttle certainly has more moving parts, and has to survive much more extreme conditions. But the LHC, specifically the detectors, was built using far more complex scientific principals.
 

T.Neo

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The LHC - even compared to a typical middle-class car, the Shuttle isn't complex.

:blink:

You're telling me that a typical car is a more complicated machine than a space shuttle?

How? Why?

And why is the unit cost of an airliner of a comparable size many times lower than the single-flight cost of a shuttle?
 
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Urwumpe

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Because while the Shuttle is a pretty complex spacecraft/launcher, the amount of engineering work behind a typical consumer car pretty much dwarfs it. after all - you never just see the true R&D costs of your car, since the R&D is also done by thousands of subcontractors and suppliers, also the R&D costs of a car are spread over millions of cars.

You think a SSME is a complex machine? It isn't. It just costs 64 million per unit, because it is manufactured just a few dozen times and has to be build with much finer tolerances and much more expensive materials - but in terms of the number of parts behind it, it is simple compared to a modern four cylinder engine.

I think spaceflight is in some aspects over-rated. It isn't the real spearhead of technology anymore. A modern satellite uses more consumer electronics developments as in the other direction.
 

Cras

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A car is more complicated than the Space Shuttle? Sorry, not a chance.

And your SSME claim is just equally absurd.

Cars are not NEARLY as complex as you seem to think they are. Even with all the new models and the useless electronic crap they stick in them.

Just the number of systems the Shuttle has makes a typical automobile pale in comparison.

But back to the OP, NASA TV has been running this quite frequently and got a chance to watch it there, and I found it to be very good.
 
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Codz

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My favorite part was seeing Columbia being towed through the street.:salute:
 

T.Neo

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Because while the Shuttle is a pretty complex spacecraft/launcher, the amount of engineering work behind a typical consumer car pretty much dwarfs it. after all - you never just see the true R&D costs of your car, since the R&D is also done by thousands of subcontractors and suppliers, also the R&D costs of a car are spread over millions of cars.

Yeah... ok, I accept your logic, but do you have any figures behind this statement?

You think a SSME is a complex machine? It isn't. It just costs 64 million per unit, because it is manufactured just a few dozen times and has to be build with much finer tolerances and much more expensive materials - but in terms of the number of parts behind it, it is simple compared to a modern four cylinder engine.

In terms of number of components? In terms of engineering difficulties and effort of construction (even disregarding low production runs)?

Surely an SSME has more components than a four cylinder automobile engine...

I think spaceflight is in some aspects over-rated. It isn't the real spearhead of technology anymore.

Probably. It isn't a list of great unknowns... but it is somehow exceedingly difficult at the same time.
 

Urwumpe

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Surely an SSME has more components than a four cylinder automobile engine...

Take the comparison...

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_337.pdf

(This isn't even the most complex FSI engine, but the only one I found a halfway good technical description of, the new ones combine turbochargers with superchargers and a variable geometry inlet)

A FSI engine has about 5500 parts according to Volkswagen - even if you calculate each individual tube of the SSME as single part, you get a bit less than 5000. if you count the SSME nozzle as one part (since you can't replace a broken tube, they are welded together), the SSME is just around 3000 parts.

(In the PDF is a page with the various sensors inside a car engine and the control units, compare this to the SSME - only the early prototypes used more sensors for health monitoring)
 
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DanM

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The conditions that an SSME is subject to are for more extreme than an automobile engine.

An entire car can cost around 30,000 USD. An SSME is about 40,000,000 USD.

Edit: Another point is that it takes 50 hours of practice to get a driver's license here in the US, while you need at least 1000 hours flying jet aircraft to train to fly the Space Shuttle.
 
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Codz

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This thread is getting derailed.
 

Urwumpe

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The conditions that an SSME is subject to are for more extreme than an automobile engine.

An entire car can cost around 30,000 USD. An SSME is about 40,000,000 USD.

I would almost claim that a car engine burns more fuel in its lifetime as an SSME, but then, it isn't true... a single SSME burns 450 tons of fuel in 5 flights, a car engine usually around 20 tons. ;)

But then, the conditions of a SSME are of course more extreme, no question. I just wanted to show that complexity isn't really a part of spaceflight, and even the extreme pressures inside a SSME aren't really special, a car engine develops much higher pressures.

But temperature and energy density are of course much different, also the propellants are much more nasty than gasoline. And a SSME weights only three times as much as a car.

I think a bit less respect of spaceflight in the spaceflight community would be better for it. Most of the cost drivers are not for defeating gravity, but for handling paperwork and spaceflight politics. There is also pretty minimal production planning in spaceflight, or even artificially ineffective production flows are enforced.

I would even go so far to claim, that the whole misery of spaceflight today is a nice implementation of the fairy tale "the emperors new clothes". We just lack the honest children. We have the tricksters that talk about the best new spaceflight programs and future developments - and actually, in no other industry, you get away with so little success.
 
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Cras

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It is, and it has become nuts.

A car engine is a very simple thing. Even the most complex is nothing that fancy. Granted a modern vehicle has more electrical components, it is now common for every car out there to have a controlling computer that is linked to most major parts via sensors so it knows when to illuminate the "Check Engine Light" and these sensors are from simple things like tire pressure to a little more complex like O2 levels in the exhaust to determine if the engine is burning the fuel correctly.

Take a four cylinder engine in its basic form, crank shaft link to the pistons housed in the combustion cylinders with two valves, one for injection, one for exhaust, timing is controlled by a cam shaft.

In the 80s they moved the cam shaft to above the valves, thus we have SOHC, single over head cam. Then came three valves per cylinder, two injection, one exhaust. Remove the carb and now we have electronic fuel injection, nothing very complicated here. A step further for performance boost, we can have, as is found in most I4 engines, is four valves per cylinder, the twin exhaust valves allow the injection to be given a form of forced induction, much like the effect a super charger has. To facilitate this, each bank of valves, the two injection and two exhaust valves, get their own cam shaft, thus DOHC, duel over head cam.

Now the new thing is to variate the timing of the cam even further with variable valve timing, again, not a complicated thing, it just took a while to build one that can last 30,000+ miles of usage, and some on the road still cannot meet this demand.

Connect the heat to a very simple air cooled radiator, have a air hose run over the block to get heated for cabin heating, run another air hose through an engine powered compressor to get A/c for the cabin. 4 bangers suck on horse so throw in a turbine to create further forced induction in the intake, and to keep things simple, power the turbine from the exhaust and we now have a turbo charger.
Slap an alternater to the crank to generate electrical power to help power the system and charge the battery, and there you have it.

The space shuttle on the other hand does not feed in outside air, it has self contained life support system. No need for an alternater, no, instead we have three fuel cells.
You seem to want to make out the SSMEs as being something some guy can build in his sheed if he so pleases, but yet we have three of them, fed from umbilical lines from an external fuel tank. Oh yes, and they are throttle-able rocket engines.

We also have two orbital manuvering pods, a slew of RMS jets on two systems, the pri and vern, 5 GPCs, a water system linked to the fuel cells, three forms of radiators, the payload bay loops, the flash evaps, and the ammonia boilers, the RMS, the camera system, all the attena, three GPS systems, the star trakers, the IMUs, the three APUs, the Helium pumps for the main propulsion system and the OMS, isolation valvues all over the darn place, rgas, radar altimeters, the MLS system, the air data probes (since it is also a plane remember), TWO O2 N2 systems for the cabin, an airlock, now the APDS, and a bathroom, just to name a few systems the Shuttle has.


After a successful mission, on which nothing went wrong, it takes thousands of people to turn around the vehicle, to check it out, and zero out the systems.

It takes one guy to look at a mass production car and fix it, and of course you only have him look at it after it breaks.

I would bet no aviator would ever think their aircraft is more complex than the Shuttle, even should it be a Boeing 777, let alone think his 4 cylinder auto.

I look at this list, and your VW looses. Shuttle is more complex. Period.
 

Urwumpe

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I look at this list, and your VW looses. Shuttle is more complex. Period.

I want to see you build such a car engine from the stuff in your shed. :lol::lol::lol:

You are closer building a V-2 rocket engine from this stuff.

It isn't the old US V8 engine that can be assembled from parts and started in 16 minutes anymore (German TV has the evidence that this had been possible) and as you can see in the state of the US car industry, you also can't afford selling junk from the back of your shed to the customers anymore.

In the simplest diagram, a SSME is four pumps, two preburners, two turbines, two shafts and a main combustion chamber. Of course, it isn't that easy, if you don't want to see hydrogen erode your hot metal parts or your oxygen pump exploding every second.

But what makes a car engine cheap and an SSME expensive is not just the power density, but also the production and testing conditions - both car engine and SSME can't be simulated adequate in a computer, you get already pretty close, but not close enough. So, you need prototypes. A car engine prototype that fails to run will not explode dramatically, a rocket engine will. Car engines can often be repaired even after the worst case happened, rocket engines are usually a total loss even after a minor failure.

This is caused of course by the power density, you stuff as much energy as possible at a time into a smaller and lighter engine. Downsizing also applies to rocket engines, just like it applies to modern cars (another factor you ignored BTW).

Also, the ECLSS of the space shuttle had been designed in the 1970s and is maybe complex compared to what you find in a 1970s car with air conditioning - but it is actually pretty primitive to what you find in modern cars as A/C and both is dwarfed by the air conditioning in a modern wide-body airliner. If you would order your Orion ECLSS by a car company instead of an aerospace company by the sketches of a NASA employee, it would look completely different - and I would bet, it is actually cheaper, lighter and more robust. because I bet the everyday experience of car manufacturers with millions of customers is simply more powerful as any 20 year old NASA model and supercomputer simulation alone can be.

And this goes on with nearly everything else in a car - you think the ISS CDHS is complex? It has less serial data buses as a typical car in 2010, the same number of CPUs, but then it uses CPUs that are about 20 years older than what a car manufacturer uses. The ISS does not even have more memory - while the memory used for actually driving the car from A to B is just a few kilobytes, the whole entertainment and comfort stuff easily exceeds the ISS computers (And don't make the error to believe that radiation hardening only applies to space).

Which is maybe another way to describe my conclusion there: We don't have people who live and breathe spaceflight like that. Maybe the Russians that produce Soyuz spacecraft every other month can get close, but they don't do much R&D to improve it. But in the USA or Europe? We build one ATV per year and celebrate as if it is the first, and maybe, experience wise, it almost is.

But it is a difference if your product cycle is measured in decades or if it is measured in months. I don't feel like there are really many people in spaceflight who go to work everyday with the motivation to make the next spacecraft better than the last. A few really do that, and I like to have them around, but most grew comfortable on government money and low expectations.
 
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T.Neo

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3732883750_5b7d9490d4.jpg


SSME. Cost, $50 000 000+. Chamber pressure at 100% thrust: 18.94 MPa.

Operational environment;
SSME%20removal.jpg


And...

ak47_3.jpg


AK-47. Cost, ~$400. Maximum chamber pressure: 355.00 MPa

Operational environment;
armed-ijaw-militants-in-nigeria.jpg


Yup. ;)
 
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