Fun With Naval Terminology

clive bradbury

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In the Royal Navy c. WW1, light cruisers were designed for two primary roles:

1. Fast scouts for the Grand Fleet. HSF used them the same way.

2. As destroyer squadron leaders - primarily as they had a bit more room for staff.

They were sometimes used independently for commerce protection/raiding - but this role was primarily filled by the true cruiser (far longer range).

This role evolved to be more varied and complex in WW2.

If you are interested in the pre-WW2 period buy this (but I warn you it is very addictive):

http://nws-online.proboards.com/thread/335/rtw-rule-waves-information-downloads
 
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Linguofreak

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They were sometimes used independently for commerce protection/raiding - but this role was primarily filled by the true cruiser (far longer range).

Well... Yes and no. Armored cruisers, at least later on, were basically pre-dreadnought battlecruisers (with battlecruisers proper being dreadnought-type designs), and were much the same size as pre-dreadnought battleships. The basic idea of a cruiser is a long-ranged ship that you can build more cheaply than a battleship so that you can build them in large enough numbers to be effective at commerce raiding and commerce protection. But being effective at commerce raiding/protection also depends on being bigger than the enemy's cruisers, and so navies built bigger and bigger cruisers until they were as big and expensive as battleships. So the brunt of the commerce role landed on the light cruisers for economic reasons, but a light cruiser had to run if it ever encountered an armored cruiser. Both the light and heavy cruisers of the WWII era were descended from the light cruisers of WWI.
 

Enjo

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Can't you smell my T levels?
SSI's Star General, which probably no one else plays.
I quoted you before but I forgot to say that I had played SG too as a teenager, but I was more into Panzer General. More realistic and emotional.

That game looks awesome. What the required system specs?
I don't know the exact Spring's req. specs, but my 10 year old PC was able to run it.
I noticed yesterday that the Spring had been forked into engine that's called Zero-K, though using .NET. Not sure how this affects portability...
 
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PhantomCruiser

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The Japanese lately have had some fun with the "Destroyer" label, the Hyūga-class helicopter destroyer looks more LHDish to me.

But if you want some fun with naval terminology look at the rank structure;
Everyone else has a Colonel while we've got a Captain,
their Captain are our Lieutenants,
their Lieutenants are our Ensigns,
and an Ensign is a flag!
 

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I suspect that the Hyūga-class is called "destroyer" mostly for "political" reasons.
In fact, it is a light carrier... it's somewhat comparable with the italian Giuseppe Garibaldi, that is classified "carrier" ("incrociatore portaeromobili" in the italian nomenclature).
 
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PhantomCruiser

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Not at sea. From Wikipedia; In nautical use, the ensign is flown on a ship or boat to indicate its nationality. Ensigns are usually at the stern flagstaff when in port, and may be shifted to a gaff (if available) when the ship is under way, becoming known as a steaming ensign.

Now the jackstaff is on the bow, which flies (for the U.S.) the jack (our blue field w/ 50 stars), since 9/11 most every ship I've seen are flying the First Navy Jack (w/ a Don't Tread on Me snake).

Every ship has a pennant also, supposed to be indicative of a whip.
 

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I think the most famous battlecruiser is probably HMS Hood, which demonstrated the downside of going with lighter armor when she was destroyed by a single lucky hit from Bismarck.
The Hood was a great ship that was used improperly. Battlecruisers are offensive weapons; they are built to dish out fire more than to take it. Put them in a battle line, and you get...well, the Hood;)

In the Royal Navy c. WW1, light cruisers were designed for two primary roles:

1. Fast scouts for the Grand Fleet. HSF used them the same way.

That's pretty much how I use them in SG. They hold up pretty will under laser fire (missile fire not so much:(), so I use them to run interference against enemy attacks while I crank out a battle group to respond with, and to escort my "carriers" (transports with fighters on them;)) on quick assaults against undefended enemy planets.

The basic idea of a cruiser is a long-ranged ship that you can build more cheaply than a battleship so that you can build them in large enough numbers.
Exactly. Three cruisers are a better deal financially than one battleship:)

I quoted you before but I forgot to say that I had played SG too as a teenager, but I was more into Panzer General. More realistic and emotional.
I got SG for Christmas. I can't remember the exact year, but I was a lot younger:lol:

I still play it, and it is truly an awesome game. The AI is a little odd in places--often enemy troops will land on one of my planets, and then just sit there doing nothing while I slaughter them. But it's pretty good everywhere else, and in space they will wear you down by spamming out capitals and DE's until you have no money left to build defenses.

My favorite race is a tie between the Hressans and the Cephians, and my second fav has to be the Schleinel Hegemony:p
 

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The Hood was a great ship that was used improperly. Battlecruisers are offensive weapons; they are built to dish out fire more than to take it. Put them in a battle line, andP

In fact, the Hood was very unlucky during their last battle.
The Bismarck batteries was surely superb, but the German battleship wasn't the formidable war machine that someone says. Also, the Prince of Wales has opened fire exclusively on the Prinz Eugen (thinking it was the Bismarck); if that modern battleship had helped more effectively the Hood against the Bismarck, the German ship probably should have to move away much earlier and the Hood might have been saved.
 

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In fact, the Hood was very unlucky during their last battle.
The Bismarck batteries was surely superb, but the German battleship wasn't the formidable war machine that someone says. Also, the Prince of Wales has opened fire exclusively on the Prinz Eugen (thinking it was the Bismarck); if that modern battleship had helped more effectively the Hood against the Bismarck, the German ship probably should have to move away much earlier and the Hood might have been saved.

The Bismarck was a very good ship, probably even better than the unlucky Prince of Wales. Not the best battleship of WW2, but at that time one that dictated the terms. The Prince of Wales was not even fully battleworthy at that time. And eventually shared the fate of the Bismarck near Singapore.

And the Hood was not unlucky - It died just like all other British ships of her era. The Battle of Jutland was a lesson that the Royal Navy quickly forgot. She was the pride of the Royal Navy because she was the best ship that the Royal Navy had after WW1. But she was already obsolete when WW1 was over.
 

Urwumpe

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Style is not substance?

Yeah. Or: Big guns and high rate of fire are not deciding battles. Making sure that your own ammo is not killing you is important. During the battle of Jutland most British ships where lost to easily avoidable ammunition explosions, while only smaller (SMS Frauenlob) and older (SMS Pommern) German crafts suffered this fate. It was a known design defect but the Royal Navy did not really believe it until the Hood was lost.
 

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The Bismarck was a very good ship, probably even better than the unlucky Prince of Wales.

Surely it was.
King George V class was not so great. I think that Nelson class was better.
But in fact, Bismarck was not more protected than other contemporary classes, and their 380 mm main guns had precision but not so much penetration capabilities. Also, anti aircraft armament was not adequate.
Maybe the Bismarck can be a match for the Littorio class, that had similar displacement, armament and protection (but very crappy range)

Ships as the South Dakota class was far better.

The Tirpitz was a good improvement above the Bismarck, with heavier anti aircraft armament, greater range and torpedoes.

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

And the Hood was not unlucky - It died just like all other British ships of her era. The Battle of Jutland was a lesson that the Royal Navy quickly forgot. She was the pride of the Royal Navy because she was the best ship that the Royal Navy had after WW1. But she was already obsolete when WW1 was over.

A radical refit for the Hood (similar to the Queen Elizabeth class refit) was already scheduled but the war broke out and the project was halted, forcing the British to put the ship in action in the original layout.
Surely the Hood was an old ship and even a total refit could not correct some deficiences. And surely the Bismarck was a more modern and superior battleship. Repeating that battle a hundred times, the Hood would be defeated a hundred times. No chance against Bismarck. But such a devastating end was absolutely imprevedible. Even the Bismarck crew was very surprised for such a spectacular victory.
Anyway, the Bismarck has exhausted very soon her luck...
 
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Urwumpe

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King George V class was not so great. I think that Nelson class was better.

I agree there - but the Nelson was a far more radical design then, hard to really estimate its capabilities. Nobody would build a warship like that today.


But in fact, Bismarck was not more protected than other contemporary classes, and their 380 mm main guns had precision but not so much penetration capabilities.

The fact that it was still swimming and scuttled in the end speaks words about the protection, German ships have always had a good protection in comparison to others. Also later expeditions to the wreck also confirmed that the citadel of the ship was still intact. Badly bruised, but intact. No comparison to the devastation found on British or Japanese wrecks.

The Tirpitz was a good improvement above the Bismarck, with heavier anti aircraft armament, greater range and torpedoes.

Well, not sure there, since the Tirpitz never really took part in the war, except as target. I would say the Scharnhorst was the more successful design for Germany.

A radical refit for the Hood (similar to the Queen Elizabeth class refit) was already scheduled but the war broke out and the project was halted, forcing the British to put the ship in action in the original layout.

Yeah, the delay was also caused by the fact, that the Hood was constantly deployed for political missions.

Surely the Hood was an old ship and even a total refit could not correct some deficiences. And surely the Bismarck was a more modern and superior battleship. Repeating that battle a hundred times, the Hood would be defeated a hundred times. No chance against Bismarck. But such a devastating end was absolutely imprevedible. Even the Bismarck crew was very surprised for such a spectacular victory.

Not sure if that end was really unpredictable. What was surprising was, how fast the battle ended for the Hood. Even for the crew of the Prince Of Wales. It was the third or fourth salvo of the Bismarck to straddle the Hood and just the second or third important direct hit on the ship.

But if you remember the reports and photographs of the Battle of Jutland, like also many seamen in Germany had seen, you would know what to expect when a British battlecruiser is hit - the explosion of the Queen Mary was famous in German propaganda, also after just two hits by the German battlecruiser Derfflinger.

Anyway, the Bismarck has exhausted very soon her luck...

Sure, but then it was really a very lucky victory for the British. But the air defenses really failed epically against such slow planes, I remember reports that the fire control computers had problems calculating a solution, because the planes had been flying below minimum allowed input for the air target speed.

Hard to tell, how the battle would have been, would the computer not have been designed for faster contemporary aircraft. Not a single Swordfish was shot down, which is a really epic failure.
 

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The fact that it was still swimming and scuttled in the end speaks words about the protection,
I agree. Some ships seems really "unsinkable", think for example at the carriers Enterprise and Yorktown.
Anyway, the protection of the battleships of the '30 and '40 was so good that was damn difficult to sink it with guns. Not so difficult to disable, that is equally important. And the Bismarck was disabled very early, with that lucky shot at the rudder...

Also later expeditions to the wreck also confirmed that the citadel of the ship was still intact. Badly bruised, but intact. No comparison to the devastation found on British or Japanese wrecks.
Speaking of Japanese ships, they have suffered devastating air attacks; the battleship protection, even on the more modern project, was still optimized for the surface battle.

I would say the Scharnhorst was the more successful design for Germany.
I can agree. There is some debate about how call it: Scharnhorst class or Gneisenau class? From Wikipedia: Scharnhorst was launched first, and so she is considered to be the lead ship by some sources; however, they are also referred to as the Gneisenau class in some other sources, as Gneisenau was the first to be laid down and commissioned.

Sure, but then it was really a very lucky victory for the British. But the air defenses really failed epically against such slow planes, I remember reports that the fire control computers had problems calculating a solution, because the planes had been flying below minimum allowed input for the air target speed.

Interesting detail.

I would to thank you for the discussion!
 

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I can agree. There is some debate about how call it: Scharnhorst class or Gneisenau class? From Wikipedia: Scharnhorst was launched first, and so she is considered to be the lead ship by some sources; however, they are also referred to as the Gneisenau class in some other sources, as Gneisenau was the first to be laid down and commissioned.

Well, not so much a discussion in Germany, since the ships had no names before being launched, they had been briefly named "D" and "E" in the ship building manifest. So, it was the Scharnhorst class for us, since it was launched months before the Gneisenau.

Fun fact is that the Scharnhorst still has the record for the longest shot against a moving ship that hit its target, with 24 km against the Glorious. Despite its rather tiny gun calibre of 280 mm.
 

Andy44

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Wow this really brings home why you really don't want to be involved in this kind of combat:

Some 900 men went into the cold, northern waters that evening and they faced a horrifying ordeal. Despite saluting their gallant foes, the German battleships did not stop to pick up survivors. The British, on the other hand, unaware that the three ships had been lost until the following day, even continued to radio orders to them until the Germans announced the sinkings. Hour after hour men waited in the water and in open rafts as their shipmates slipped away around them. When Norwegian vessels finally found them nearly three days later, only 40 remained alive. The death toll of 1,519 exceeded any of the other great British naval disasters of the war.
 

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Wow this really brings home why you really don't want to be involved in this kind of combat:

Was far worse for the civilian crews of the convoys. Who was lost, was lost. Nobody stopped for them.
 
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The difference between battle-cruiser and light cruiser is not the only mystifying one. During the age of the transition from iron clad to dreadnought there were also "protected cruisers" and "armored cruisers", some differences defined even by the quality of the armor plating metal used in the fabrication, as well as exactly what was being protected by what thickness. Some of that stuff was so brittle and frangible under a sizable impact that the splinters generated by the armor breaking up were deadlier to nearby crew than the actual enemy shell hit. One word for the revolution regarding that; Krupp.

LOL! And those are not dated games for me. I still play Action Stations. Best naval tactics game I ever did play, despite its age. Second to it, Steam and Iron. Warning: Do not expect to have much use for your GTX 970 with them.

Fun naval terminology? There's so much of it rubbed off into the lingo in England, but one of my favorites...

You're three sheets in the wind = You're drunk.

:cheers:
 
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