Heavy fighting in South Ossetia.

[Urwumpe]

SiberianTiger: Well, then we also have the two Russian motorized brigades which were already in the region + the reinforcements which arrived the last days + irregular fighters on all sides...

I think the best solution would be making the new republics a DMZ, which would be unrealistic because of two factors: Russian nationalistic politics and the fact that there is a department for reunification on the Georgian side.

Demanding the head of Saakashvili is pretty antidemocratic - the Georgians love him, though he is as authoritarian as Putin... well, maybe because of that.

I wish we could demand the heads of all nationalist bastards in the world. It would make life far easier for a short moment.

EDIT: Especially the head of the current president of South-Ossetia. According to a analysis I just read, he is just a local crime lord, whose "freedom fighters" actually control the organized crime and smuggling in the region over the only usable tunnel in the region - and who does not even have a single bit of interest in a reunification with North-Ossetia. Another troublemaker in the region.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Demanding the head of Saakashvili is pretty antidemocratic - the Georgians love him, though he is as authoritarian as Putin... well, maybe because of that.

Well, tell me about a president of independent Georgia who was NOT authoritatian and loved by a FRACTION of the Georgian population at the same time. And how did their rule end.

P.S. Even better if all border-related and other problems would have been solved in a hand-to-hand combat of the leaders, not involving people. At least, in this case some of the well known leaders would take up judo or aikido and become more fit...

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, tell me about a president of independent Georgia who was NOT authoritatian and loved by a FRACTION of the Georgian population at the same time. And how did their rule end.

3/5th is also only a fraction.

His party just made 63% in the last elections, and so far, I have no reports from the OSCE about the extend of cheating in the election (though you can be sure, that it was not more democratic as the last Russian election).

Also, other polls do not indicate he lost much of his fame from the Rose Revolution.

Taking him away is pretty expensive action, you can be sure. You can't install a candidate suitable for Russia without conquering Georgia, which is not too unlikely... Russia not only bombed military bases, but also aircraft factories in Georgia. Does not sound like they are only happy with protecting South-Ossetia.

 

[SiberianTiger]

3/5th is also only a fraction.

No, it's not just a fraction, it's the most suitable winning fraction that allows your country's democracy to be distingiushed from Kazakhstan etc.

You can't install a candidate suitable for Russia without conquering Georgia, which is not too unlikely... Russia not only bombed military bases, but also aircraft factories in Georgia. Does not sound like they are only happy with protecting South-Ossetia.

Please choose between the two possibilities: conquest of the country or derailing its industry. If, of course, this are the true news about the aircraft factories.

 

[Urwumpe]

Please choose between the two possibilities: conquest of the country or derailing its industry. If, of course, this are the true news about the aircraft factories.

For just protecting South Ossetia by crossing the plans of Georgia quickly securing it, you don't need to bomb a factory close Tiflis. But when you plan have a longer campaign which would go on the scale of Georgia making use of replacements produced in this factory, you do.

 

[SiberianTiger]

For just protecting South Ossetia by crossing the plans of Georgia quickly securing it, you don't need to bomb a factory close Tiflis. But when you plan have a longer campaign which would go on the scale of Georgia making use of replacements produced in this factory, you do.

There is a third possible alternative, conversely, the most cruel one. This is called Balkanization. A state consisting of ethnic anclaves that you don't want to exist as a whole, is being split in various ways into territorial fractions. Ultimately, you isolate the unwanted people in just one. There have been a report of the locals' unrest in Mingrelia, the terrotory ajacent to Abkhazia and the Black Sea coast - the protesters were unhappy about the govt of Georgia who "lost their minds and throw Georgians into battle like a gun fodder". Not sure if this is reality, though.


-----Posted Added-----


There is a confirmation of today's sinking of a Georgian missile boat by the Russian Black Sea Fleet in an artillery duel. RIP.

 

[Tex]

Lot's of armchair combat leaders around here.

Seconded! It's amazing how people seem to know it all when posting on a forum. I'm quite sure we have no real combat leaders here.

 

[Urwumpe]

There is a third possible alternative, conversely, the most cruel one. This is called Balkanization. A state consisting of ethnic anclaves that you don't want to exist as a whole, is being split in various ways into territorial fractions. Ultimately, you isolate the unwanted people in just one. There have been a report of the locals' unrest in Mingrelia, the terrotory ajacent to Abkhazia and the Black Sea coast - the protesters were unhappy about the govt of Georgia who "lost their minds and throw Georgians into battle like a gun fodder". Not sure if this is reality, though.

A destabilization of Georgia would at least ultimately serve Russia in preventing from having another NATO country in it's south, making it surrounded by NATO from all sides. That's also why a Georgia accepting South-Ossetia peacefully would not be appreciated by Russia.

There is a confirmation of today's sinking of a Georgian missile boat by the Russian Black Sea Fleet in an artillery duel. RIP.

Well, they are now in Davy Jones Locker. And they will likely not be the last.

 

[markpetroff]

NO COMMENT ((c) EuroNews)

 

[Urwumpe]

NO COMMENT ((c) EuroNews)

Was the defacement of Georgian websites by a group formerly known as the Russian Business Network (RBN) - one of the larger groups of cybercriminals...

It was not produced by EuroNews as you imply.

(And just look how it avoids mentioning Stalin)

 

[Andy44]

Seconded! It's amazing how people seem to know it all when posting on a forum. I'm quite sure we have no real combat leaders here.

Well, there is at least one here, and maybe more, to be fair.

 

[simonpro]

That is a rather... unfriendly... theory. I would assert that US soldiers are given the best possible training and that the high friendly-fire losses are a result of increased lethality of deployment of weapons, engagement of enemy forces extremely close to friendlies, and drastic reductions of losses from enemy action.

I think this is fairly close to the point. American troops are extremely well trained, but at the start of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts they were not trained in the type of fighting they encountered on the ground. This, of course, led to problems such as F.F. More recently this has been changing as training methods have been adapted, and experience gained. No-one, not the US, not the UK, not Sweden, were expecting the type of strength of resistance encountered and it's been a learning curve for all.
As the old saying goes, experience is a harsh mistress as it administers the test before the lesson. We've had the test, now we're learning.

Seconded! It's amazing how people seem to know it all when posting on a forum. I'm quite sure we have no real combat leaders here.

You'd be wrong, there's at least three people on here who've said they are in, or were previously in, the US Military (two as officers, IIRC, and one of whom has posted in this thread). There's also four people who have served in the military of other countries, two of whom have posted in this thread, one of whom was an officer (I don't know if Urwumpe was, but I'm guessing not as he was on military service).
I am a member of Malmö Hemvärnet (home guard) and whilst I've never seen combat as anything other than a Civilian I still think I have a basic idea of what goes on, so it's a little offensive for people to suggest otherwise. I'm sure some of the others here think the same. Particularly those in the US military who have served as professional soldiers (and have, perhaps wisely, kept quiet here).

(edit) You can tell I've had a beer, spelling mistakes now corrected

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't know if Urwumpe was, but I'm guessing not as he was on military service

No, I got rejected during the final selection process as officer candidate and just did a regular military service.

I have no problems with people trying to label me as arm chair strategic, but finally I have a problem with people denouncing my arguments only on the base, that I am not a general or higher. If I would still be in the military and as such have the realistic possibility of getting deployed in the Caucasus, I would have to keep silent and leave the talking to the PR group.

But I am not. And I have the freedom of speech as long as I don't stress the forum rules too much.


-----Posted Added-----


According to Georgian sources, the Russians are now invading central Georgia and march towards the town Gori, while Russian sources so far deny this. Looks like the next morning will bring interesting news.

 

[Andy44]

I just hope the U.S. can keep out of it. From what I was hearing on the Sunday morning talk shows, it doesn't sound good. Apparently there were recently a bunch of U.S. Marines in Georgia training the local troops, for some reason. Why?

 

[Urwumpe]

I just hope the U.S. can keep out of it. From what I was hearing on the Sunday morning talk shows, it doesn't sound good. Apparently there were recently a bunch of U.S. Marines in Georgia training the local troops, for some reason. Why?

2000 Georgian troops helped your troops in Iraq, until yesterday. Of course you train them for joint operations.

 

[legios]

Seconded! It's amazing how people seem to know it all when posting on a forum. I'm quite sure we have no real combat leaders here.

Darn, I just spent 30 minutes typing a rebuttal, and the forum logged me out. I just don't have the energy to retype.

Here's a summary:

I am a LCDR in the US Navy with combat experience in 3 wars / conflicts. I am also a Weapons and Tactics Instructor that has both developed new tactics and taught those tactics to the fleet.

Go pills were blamed by the F-16 National Guard pilots that killed the Canadians. It was a ploy to distract from the fact that they blatently violated procedures and ROE.

Gulf War I was nothing like OEF nor OIF. Friendlies operated an order of magnitude closer to the enemy during the latter wars.

The situation will change multiple times between the time a pilot is briefed and the time he employs his weapon. No brief can cover the future.

The only time I've seen a case of someone being "trigger happy" occured during an air defense exercise (ADEX). That pilot got a face to face meeting with the two star Strike Group Admiral. He also had to go to every squadron and explain why what he did was wrong.

I could go on, but I'm probably wasting my breath anyway.

 

[DanP]

Does any of the posters claiming use of go pills by the US armed forces care to provide some sort of evidence? I've yet heard of anything to back up this claim. Furthermore, do you have any information about the extensive use (or indeed any use at all) of go pills by armed forces in the past 100 years? I've never heard of such things, but maybe it's just my ignorance.

Frankly, it doesn't make any sense for an army to extensively use Amphetamines. Go pills cause many unwanted physical and mental effects even in low doses, particularly unwanted for a modern army fighting a war. Wiki "Amphetamines" up.

Also, how come none of the retired soldiers are asking the US government for compensations for the withdrawal effects they would have suffered if they used go-pills during service?

 

[legios]

Does any of the posters claiming use of go pills by the US armed forces care to provide some sort of evidence? I've yet heard of anything to back up this claim. Furthermore, do you have any information about the extensive use (or indeed any use at all) of go pills by armed forces in the past 100 years? I've never heard of such things, but maybe it's just my ignorance.

Frankly, it doesn't make any sense for an army to extensively use Amphetamines. Go pills cause many unwanted physical and mental effects even in low doses, particularly unwanted for a modern army fighting a war. Wiki "Amphetamines" up.

Also, how come none of the retired soldiers are asking the US government for compensations for the withdrawal effects they would have suffered if they used go-pills during service?

Dan, Go pills were offered to us by our flight docs during OIF and OEF. I don't know many Navy pilots on my boat that used them...they were kind of a pain in the a**. You had to take downers when you were done flying so that you could get some sleep. In addition, they really dehydrated you...which is rough since the flight deck is like 130F in the Gulf.

I have heard, but have no proof, that the USAF used them a lot. Take into consideration though that the B-2 and B-1 crews often flew from the US and those missions were sometimes over 24 hours long. Even the fighters were flying 10-12 hours missions every day.

My missions were only half as long, and I was TIRED. So I don't really blame AF pilots for using them. I have no idea if the Army uses them or not.

 

[SiberianTiger]

I just hope the U.S. can keep out of it. From what I was hearing on the Sunday morning talk shows, it doesn't sound good. Apparently there were recently a bunch of U.S. Marines in Georgia training the local troops, for some reason. Why?

There have been messages over Russian media about killing soldiers of black skin colour, soldier wearing US uniform, and there is a media-heated general belief that this entire war is a secret agenda of the USA to touch the ground in South Caucaus and test Russia's tolerance limits and military strength. One might dismiss it as hot air news, but some weapons supply had definitely been there: at least the recon drones shot down over Abkhazia whose debris were salvaged were USA made.

 

[Native Son]

I think this is fairly close to the point. American troops are extremely well trained, but at the start of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts they were not trained in the type of fighting they encountered on the ground. This, of course, led to problems such as F.F. More recently this has been changing as training methods have been adapted, and experience gained. No-one, not the US, not the UK, not Sweden, were expecting the type of strength of resistance encountered and it's been a learning curve for all.
As the old saying goes, experience is a harsh mistress as it administers the test before the lesson. We've had the test, now we're learning.



You'd be wrong, there's at least three people on here who've said they are in, or were previously in, the US Military (two as officers, IIRC, and one of whom has posted in this thread). There's also four people who have served in the military of other countries, two of whom have posted in this thread, one of whom was an officer (I don't know if Urwumpe was, but I'm guessing not as he was on military service).
I am a member of Malmö Hemvärnet (home guard) and whilst I've never seen combat as anything other than a Civilian I still think I have a basic idea of what goes on, so it's a little offensive for people to suggest otherwise. I'm sure some of the others here think the same. Particularly those in the US military who have served as professional soldiers (and have, perhaps wisely, kept quiet here).

(edit) You can tell I've had a beer, spelling mistakes now corrected

Very true, Simon. The fighting in these wars is very new to us, and we had to rewrite the handbook on it. I do agree that our leaders have severely underestimate the challenge we brought upon ourselves.

For the pills, I could ask my brother for I live with him. He just finished his six years and just about all of them except basic training and a few months of stateside were overseas. He spent two tours in Iraq and three tours in Afghanistan. I don't ask about his battles, for I respect his privacy. He'll tell me things from time to time, but mostly he keeps quiet about his experiences.

I do know he participated in the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, though I won't go into detail for the official story is not the real story. He has lost many good friends and he was awarded the Bronze Star during a mission in Iraq. Anyway, I'm boasting here, he has much experience with friendly fire and I'll ask about what he thinks about their relationship with pills, even though I believe its fully loaded BS.