McCain or Obama?

Which Canidate do you want to win the election?

  • McCain

    Votes: 54 36.2%
  • Obama

    Votes: 95 63.8%

  • Total voters
    149
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replicant

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I doubt that if Obama is elected he'll try to get rid of white folks or something like that.

Interesting that you say that. I have to gut check myself on this all the time. I was born and raised in Idaho "The reddest of the red states" According to Gov. Butch Otter, (whom I voted for by the way). I say this because to be perfectly honest, a deep down part of me has that very fear. I know that if I have it, and have to choke it back from deep in my wrongly conditioned mind, I can't be the only one.


I'd gently remind them of that silly "chruch and state" deal. =)

Oh I do, all the time. What I get is "The founding fathers wanted freedom of religion, not freedom from religion". Or my other favorite : "It's all God filtered" I have no doubt that if Obama wins, they will say : "Well, I guess that means God is ready for America to become the evil beast and Jesus is ready to return, but us Godly followers will be raptured first"


Thankfully, we can change who represents us in office.

Starting with Ms. Palin


But if the Dems keep majority it'd put a dent in any radical efforts she might have.

A big IF. It is easier to just send her packing than try to keep or have to regain that majority.


... At any rate, to return to the "by any means necessary" notion we were discussing earlier, if you have a few minutes, the following makes for interesting reading:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/194057.php

It presents what I would consider to be very compelling evidence that a public relations firm closely associated with the Obama campaign (and other left-leaning politics) was directly involved in producing and spreading videos containing information about Sarah Palin known to be false at the time it was distributed -- and did so in clear violation of at least one federal election law.

... by any means necessary ... Saul Alinsky would be proud!

Oh Come on Greg. I don't send links from huffington post or Obamasucks.com. It even says their is no conclusive evidence.

replicant, I wasn't necessarily talking about you, but you nonetheless took it personal and went on to complain about Palin, thus making my point for me. It's clear to me you dislike Palin more than Obama, and when you felt attacked you immediately deflected it onto your political enemy. "But the other guy does it too!"

Comon', don't make it so easy. The honest person must reply to an attack on his champion without making comparisons to his opponent. I happen to like Barry Goldwater, for instance. If you accused Goldwater of lying about something, it would be disingenuous for me to reply with, "But LBJ is worse!", since LBJ is not the subject of this particular conversation. I will defend Mr. Goldwater or I will decline to defend him; attacks on LBJ can wait for later. Changing the subject to deflect attention is the surest sign of a losing argument.

Glad to hear, and yes, I should not have taken it personally. I retract any personal references. Positive defense of my "champion"? Well, I do wish there were a better one, since I do not like a lot of his socialist ideas, but McCain has been leaning socialist as of late also.

Obama is mostly positive in his message for the future direction of the country. He does not think his foreign policy decisions should be decided by God. He thinks every family should have health care at the very least for their children. His tax plan calls to raise on those making $250,000 a year and up. You might not think that is a positive, but I and everyone else under that thinks it is. Even some higher income people don't mind because they realize that if it all falls apart and China ends up owning us because we are so far in debt, they will be hurting as well. He apparantly does not believe in the "trickle down theory" of make business strong and people weak and you will make money. That is the biggest load of garbage ever. Why is it that everyone recognizes that in every other human endeavor that strength comes from the bottom up. Hence "grassroots" movements for everything. Yet for ecomomics, people actually buy the idea that strong businesses with the power and money actually "let" their money "trickle down". Whatever.

He actually has a family that exemplifies "family values" He is married to his first wife. He was raised by a mother on food stamps and worked his way up. As far as I am concerned, he is the closest representative of me than anyone running right now.

Yes, I don't like it when he makes mistakes, but no one is perfect, and so far, his mistakes have not been enough to dissuade me.


-----Posted Added-----


By the way, I know that someone else has to have thought of this, but I will say it:

When McCain dies and Palin is impeached, Nancy Pelosi will be your President.

In fact, I wouldn't doubt it if Pelosi votes for McCain.
 

bujin

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I'd be interested to see a parallel poll on this topic, but only completed by non-Americans.

Or perhaps one completed by Americans and one by non-Americans.

I know it's only Americans who will have the final say in the matter, but the decision does affect the rest of the world, so I think it would be interesting to see whether the rest of the world "agrees" with the people of America.
 

Urwumpe

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It must not affect us... we Germans could also join the axis of evil (again). ;)

But it is more practical, to have a president who does not ask us for funding his errors. ;)
 

GregBurch

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Oh Come on Greg. I don't send links from huffington post or Obamasucks.com. It even says their is no conclusive evidence.

I'm still struggling with no grid power, so I can't respond at length. But let me simply say this: You did not respond to this item. Instead, you responded to the fact that the source is partisan, and left it at that. This is the end of political dialogue, wouldn't you agree? Basically, you're saying that if it isn't in the NYT, it isn't true.

As a trial lawyer, I can say that the evidence presented in this piece is far more than it would take to get to a jury. But you have kicked the case out of court on what you consider to be a point of evidentiary provenance. Were this to be an actual legal case and you the judge, I would appeal immediately, and you would be reversed. The case would have to be tried, and you would have to let a jury consider this evidence.

So I'm asking you to put yourself into the role of jury instead, and actually consider the evidence.
 

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replicant

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A few points here Greg. I respect you, I think you are very well spoken and obviously have some very good points. However, like everyone here, you have certain life experiences that color your perspective and your perception. I know that you and I will never agree on many things, so let me offer my perspective, and I will close this discussion from my end, and see what happenes in November.

I will now take a page from Andy44 and not say "the other guy does it too". I will also take a page from Karl Rove and attack the opponent on their "strength"

1. I come from a working class family that was VERY hard hit during the Reagan 80's. My family almost lost their home. My father being an IBEW journeyman (an organization Cheney has also said he belonged to) was forced to travel to work after Mr. Reagan and Mr. Heston with their union busting turned Idaho right to work. The true irony is that both of them used SAG to their benifit when it suited them. Thanks to the savior Ronny "Jesus" Reagan, we are now seeing the fruits of his deregulation, and the vindication of FDR and the new deal.

2. Before anyone here bad mouths organized labor or the new deal, keep in mind most of us would not have computers to type on or the ability to read and write if not for them. If it was not for the "grassroots" movement to stop unchecked capitalism, children would still be working in factories and familes would be making two dollars a day because "that's what the market dictates" When will people realize that jobs are the result of a demand in the market, not from giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. By the way, I am for penalizing any company that hires illegal workers for cheap labor, to the point of destrying them. I am also for HEAVILY taxing these filthy corporations that keep sending work overseas, to the point that it is more profitable to hire American workers. Don't tell me that will "make them stop". Profit can still be made using American labor, just not as much. Oh poor them. Just as the government should fear its people, Corporations should fear the people who work for them and buy their products. I am tired of this culture, "don't upset the corporations, be nice to them, or they might hurt us"

3.
(a)I am tired of the culture that has been created in this country that the only people worth anything are business people, and that if you are not payed fairly you deserve that because you are not a hustling business person. Corporations can still pay a decent wage and make a profit, the honest answer here is that for some of these dirtbags, no matter how much they make, it's never enough.

(b)A culture that does not reward honesty, dillegence, or intelligence, but who is the best cut-throat hustler.

(c)A culture that thinks it's ok that the big boys have armies of trained negotiaters, but that each individual employee must negotiate on their own?

(d)A culture that thinks if the big boys can play everyone against themselves and force them to cut each other's throats for lower and lower pay, then that's just the "free market"

(e)A culture that says that if you are in the lower income brackets it is because you are "lazy and unambitous". This is a lie. Most work very hard, and those in the upper level are usually there because they got a lucky break, inherited it, or because they are the best cut-throat hustler. So no, I find no problem with them feeling the burden. No one gets anywhere on their own. The more you have, the more you probably got from others. saying its "all mine" and "I earned it all myself" is rationalizing for greed.

(f)A culture that thinks the idea is to quick rape the system for all you can take and live it up on a beach somewhere rather than spending your life contributing.

(g) A culture that shows disdain for anyone that doesn't want to work 20 hours a day and that actually wants to spend time with their family. Isn't that how we got where we are now? Parents need to spend time with their children. I am beyond tired of "we can't pay you anything, but we can offer lots of overtime. If you don't like that idea, you must be worthless"

4. It's almost funny how everyone bought the idea that "You too can be rich. So make sure you don't let those commies interfere with absolute unregulated free market." The funny part is that like with hollywood and pro sports, only a very few make that. So I hope no one comes crying to me with needs because they played the unregulated cut-throat game and lost.


5. I do not believe for one second that the solution is total "free market" Nor do I believe in government ownership. Like most things, there needs to be a balance. It is funny how much everyone wanted absolute free market when they thought they were going to get rich, but are now screaming "save us". It's ALMOST funny. For once I agree with my congressman, Bill Sali. No bailout. It's Unamerican, and I should not have to pay for the corporate greed, nor the greed of the idiots who bought the idea they too could get rich quick. I did not spend beyond my means nor rack up credit card debt nor buy the idea that I NEEDED Wal-Mart's cheap Chinese garbage. I did not buy the idea that I would get "instant equity" buying a cheaply built overpriced piece of garbage. I have prepared my finances, and I can survive a depression, I can also work at McDonalds and still pay my mortgage if I have to, so as far as I am concerned, let it burn, it is well deserved.

6. This leads me to the hero of all this, Comrade Bush. Wow. Mr poster boy for conservatism and personal responsibility wants to write a blank check to the disgusting dirtbags responsible for this is the most horrific rich man socialism I have ever seen. When I look back on Independence Air in Dulles it makes me sick. Corporate welfare for United Airlines put me out of work. United should have been allowed to fail, Independence Air was a good product, and truly an American Idea. My tax money was used to put me out of work. THAT'S really American.

7. If I sound like the "Angry left" I make no apologies for that anymore, it is well earned.

8. My perception is this. Clinton is an intelligent dirtbag who lied and got himself a little on the side from an ambitious little whore. Bush is the stupid elitist construct son of a lucky and disgusting family that together with Cheney and the rest of their cronies, are gulity of murder and the rape of our economy and its taxpayers.


To defend my "champion" to MY satisfation, I need only see that he wants to end the occupation of Iraq, raise taxes on the upper bracket, not write a blank check to these filty CEO's, and do something about tax breaks for corporations and the filthy rich. Until the day I achieve that level, which I doubt, I will consider the very wealthy my enemy. I do not believe for one second in "trickle down". It didn't work for 10,000 years, or in feudal Europe, and it doesn't work now.

If you wish to share you perspective with me, that would be good. If you wish to argue, well, as I said, this is MY perspective, and as you can see, I will not be swayed from it easily. Just as I am sure you will not be swayed from yours easily. The real question is simply from a chess point of view. Are there enough people that think as you do, Or enough that think as I do? Time will tell.


-----Posted Added-----


Now the page from Karl Rove.

McCain wants to reward the corporate scumbags who put us in this mess. He claims that "stimulates the economy and keeps the free market free" I think we can see what happens in a totally unregulated free market. If he says he wants regulation now, that is a complete flip-flop at best. McCain has always been the champion of less government.


Ms. Palin is all about representing women? She has "executive experience"
What if your young daughter were abducted and impregnated by someone like Joseph Duncan III?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III


Ms. Palin wants to tell you that if she were impreganted (No, I am not claiming that Shasta was in any way shape or form, this is hypothetical) she has to give birth to that baby. Sounds really sympathetic to women's issues to me.
Either she was against making rape test kits publically funded, or she had no idea that her hand-picked police chief was fighting a state-wide desire to make those kits funded for victims of rape. Now if you are Mayor of Chicago or LA, I can see how rape test kits might be buried at the bottom of the pile. But Mayor of a town of 7000? Do you seriously expect me to beleive she had no idea her police chief was in oppositon to this? Either she was for women buying their own kits, or she was incompetent. Which one?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/21/palin.rape.exams/?iref=hpmostpop

By the way.."it's the economy stupid"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26862018
 

GregBurch

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A few points here Greg. I respect you, I think you are very well spoken and obviously have some very good points. However, like everyone here, you have certain life experiences that color your perspective and your perception. I know that you and I will never agree on many things, so let me offer my perspective, and I will close this discussion from my end, and see what happenes in November.

I appreciate your taking the time to write such a long, personal and impassioned post. I've got my hands full these days dealing with my own personal "Ike-tastrophy," so I can't do your post justice. But let me quickly reply with a couple of points:

You're right that my own personal life experiences shape my views -- no doubt about that. In a comparative or relative sense, many might say that I am as much a part of the apparatus of the "ruling class" as you can be, but I certainly didn't inherit my position. My parents were, in the best of times, middle-middle class, and the best of times were not that long for them. As it ended up, I had to put myself through college, and then worked for five years before going to graduate school, paying for all of it myself, or taking out personal loans, all of which I paid back. For what it's worth, my perception is that in the stratum of "big business" in which I operate, my story is not that unusual. And, for what it's worth, I have to suppress a personal feeling of superiority and disdain toward those who inhabit the same socio-economic realm I do who did not get there "on their own" and inherited daddy's business, or even had their college education paid for by their parents.

Another note: I don't have any kind of reflexive aversion to collective bargaining. What I do have an issue with is the exemption of unions from anti-trust laws. The same kind of monopoly conduct that would land an employer in the can is considered standard operating procedure for most unions. That is a long and involved discussion, though, and far beyond the scope of either this thread or even this forum.

So, before I go out to refuel my generator, I'll just say that it looks like your guy is almost surely going to win this November. I'm almost glad, because I couldn't stand the wail of "RACISM!" and "ANOTHER STOLEN ELECTION!!!" It's almost worth having my taxes go up just to not have to listen to that :lol:
 

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When will people realize that jobs are the result of a demand in the market, not from giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy.

I don't know what idea you are attempting to express by "the result of a demand in the market," but I do know what a "job" is:

1) Somebody is attempting to do something.
2) He needs/wants help doing it.
3) He asks for such help and offers, in exchange, something of value (e.g. - money) to the person whom he is asking for help; the help that is requested, is called a "job," and the money paid in exchange, is called a "wage."

The obvious implication of this, is that, in order for an employee to have a job, the employer must have money that he can pay as a wage. Every unit of money that is taken, as a tax, from an enterprise, is a unit of money that the enterprise will then not have, to pay as a wage, to an employee. Could anything be more obvious?

Taxing an enterprise, increases its cost of doing business. Such an increase in the cost of doing business, will mean either:

1) The enterprise will produce less product (or service)
2) The price, to customers, for the product (or service), will be higher
3) The enterprise will have less money to pay its employees (thus, employees will necessarily be paid lower wages, or there will necessarily be fewer employees)

Of course, the government will then have the tax money, to spend. However, unless it is buying something for itself, that it needs, then its expenditures, as economic interventions, will likely constitute economic inefficiency, since (e.g.) a government is not capable of understanding the economy as a whole. This is simply due to the fact that an overall economy is extremely complex, and dynamic. Attempting to manage an economy, as a whole, would be analogous to a person's attempting to manage all the details of his physiological processes, with his conscious will; even medical doctors are not so foolish as to believe that they can do this, and no doctor would likely want to try to do this wrt himself. Nations that try to exemplify a "command economy," wherein the government attempts to manage all the details of economic activity, have been shown, historically, to be horrific failures, with great suffering among their peoples.

A free market is characteristically the most efficient economic mechanism. This is because each person best knows what he needs/wants, and the generalized economic behaviors of persons, are quickly recognizable to the particular aspects, of the economy, that depend upon such behaviors (such generalized customer behavior, available to be so recognized, is called a "market signal," and it is much more quickly noticed and responded to, by the pertinent aspect of the market, itself - as if a reflex, or feedback mechanism - than it could be, by some general manager of an overall economy, such as would be a government). "Efficiency," btw, is not such an inhuman/mechanistic concept as it might be alleged to be. Economic efficiency means that people get what they want, at the lowest realistic price, and materials and effort are not wasted in the process.

Anyway, it is a disgustingly common occurence, to hear politicians crow about how they "created jobs" (or intend to do so). Governments can only "create jobs" insofar as hiring governmental employees. Otherwise, "jobs" are created by enterprises that hire people to do things. Governments can help this, by making it easier for enterprises to pursue such doing of things; or they can hurt this, by making it more difficult. Taxation of enterprises, is a way of making it more difficult. The imposition of burdensome regulations, is another.

I am tired of[...]A culture that thinks it's ok that the big boys have armies of trained negotiaters, but that each individual employee must negotiate on their own?

I have never observed anyone to propose such a thing, as a general policy. Labor unions are quite an acceptable way for workers to negotiate wrt their concerns. However, the concept of a labor union has a natural basis, which is the natural strength of "collective bargaining."

a) Governments should do nothing to interfere with the process - including, for example, prohibiting enterprises from replacing their employees. If employees believe that their collective value to their employer, is such that they deserve to be paid more, or whatever, then this is fine. However, if other persons will do the job for less money (or whatever), then it is recognizable that the employees are, as a natural fact, not that valuable, and government should not corrupt the negotiation, by requiring the employer to pretend that the employees are irreplaceable.

b) Persons should be free, to choose whether they want to participate in a labor union, or not. This is what is meant by "right to work laws": a person may seek and gain employment, whether or not he is a member of a union. Furthermore, employees should be free from coercion - either by their employer, that the employee may not join a labor union, or by the labor union, that the employee must join.

It's almost funny how everyone bought the idea that "You too can be rich. So make sure you don't let those commies interfere with absolute unregulated free market." The funny part is that like with hollywood and pro sports, only a very few make that.

Economist Thomas Sowell has several times written that there is quite a lot of economic mobility in the USA. Evidence is that a large fraction of persons who are in the lowest 20%, wrt wealth (or income; I forget which), tends not to remain there; and a large fraction of persons who are in the highest 20%, tends not to remain there. I don't know what this says about whether one can "be rich," but I also don't care.

It is funny how much everyone wanted absolute free market when they thought they were going to get rich, but are now screaming "save us".

Well, I'm guessing that you are referring to the current "mortgage crisis." It is, in fact, not a result of a free market. The principal cause of the current situation (which is quite complex, overall, but I'm referring to how it began), was a set of political regulations (Community Reinvestment Act) imposed upon lending institutions, to require them to demonstrate that they were not "discriminating against" persons whom they regarded as unlikely to repay a loan. Their response was to offer "subprime loans" - loans provided at (temporarily, since subprime interest is below the cost to the lender) abnormally low interest rates, to enable persons with very little money, to buy a home. Among the results, was a "housing bubble" - an artificially increased demand, and thus increase in prices, for houses. The artifice eventually met reality, and the "bubble" burst, leaving a lot of buyers (and lending institutions) with unpayable loans and an accompanying proposal that the government should provide a whole lot of money, to repair the mess.

Corporate welfare

This concept tends to be represented too simplistically. Certainly, rich and corporate types tend to get an audience among government types, but unless the government guy is fundamentally corrupt (explicitly bribable), I think that they do not really have so much political power as is alleged. Government people want to get (re-)elected, and while campaign money helps, it is not a substitute for actual votes. "Corporate Welfare" tends, generally, to be regarded by politicians as "public service;" they are not so concerned with benefitting the rich guy, as they are with making sure that enterprises with lots of employees, or that provide a product or service upon which a lot of people depend, don't go out of business - thereby producing a whole lot of unhappy, unemployed or unserved voters. This was the case with the "General Motors bailout" and the "Airline bailouts," and it seems to be so wrt the current "mortgage bailout" proposal.

Of course, government's interventions tend to have unpredictable and often adverse consequences. It seems that you have experienced that, and I'm sorry that it is so.

Bush is the stupid elitist construct son of a lucky and disgusting family that together with Cheney and the rest of their cronies, are gulity of murder and the rape of our economy and its taxpayers.

Zzzzzz...

Karl Rove

Zzzzzz...
 
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replicant

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I know I said that I would not post on this thread again, but like Greg has said in the past, I couldn't resist. I wouldn't call it yet, "it ain't over 'till it's over". I hear you about the comments, I am sure I will hear them from my in-laws.

1. McCain/Palin win : "It was the will of God, and Sarah was an obvious gift from the Lord."

2. Obama/Biden win : "All things are god-filtered. This must be the end. God has determined the time has come for America and the world to end and the final days are upon us."

3. Four years later and things are ok : "This must be the devil's work, because our country is not run by Godly people. The devil just wants to lure us into a false sense of security and take you away from the Lord with these good economic times. Remember, suffering draws you closer to God."







I don't know what idea you are attempting to express by "the result of a demand in the market," but I do know what a "job" is:

1) Somebody is attempting to do something.

Nobody attempts to do anything unless they think they can get paid for it. This is demand

The obvious implication of this, is that, in order for an employee to have a job, the employer must have money that he can pay as a wage.

And where does this magic money come from? If I can barely afford to feed my kids, I doubt I want whatever cheesy wares you are peddling. I think it was Henry Ford who said "I want my employees to be able to afford the product I make." Pretty smart and progressive thinking.

Every unit of money that is taken, as a tax, from an enterprise, is a unit of money that the enterprise will then not have, to pay as a wage, to an employee. Could anything be more obvious?

The old scare tactic again. Is it one less dollar to pay? Or one less PROFIT margin dollar? People who fall for this garbage are the ones who end up working for nothing while their employers reap obscene profits. I am not against profit, but there must be a balance. As long as there is still some profit to be had, they won't "give up".

Perhaps you want to throw the Laffer curve at me. I saw that. I also saw that many economists dismiss it, and those that don't say the taxation rate is still typically not at peak level, which they can't really determine anyway.


then its expenditures, as economic interventions, will likely constitute economic inefficiency,

True enough. I'm sure that children working in factories for two dollars a day is VERY efficient.

Nations that try to exemplify a "command economy," wherein the government attempts to manage all the details of economic activity, have been shown, historically, to be horrific failures, with great suffering among their peoples.

Zzzz....you just spent a lengthy dissertation telling me what I already know. I never said I was for a command economy. There must be some regulation however. Anything that is successful has some regulation. What do you think would happen to a jet engine that is allowed to run totally free without regulation? Some might actually make it, but most would probably explode. Should we experiment and see which ones make it and which ones don't? Or perhaps we should regulate them within certain parameters to avoid MOST of them from doing that. That isn't jet communism, it's simply something that makes sense.

"Efficiency," btw, is not such an inhuman/mechanistic concept as it might be alleged to be. Economic efficiency means that people get what they want, at the lowest realistic price, and materials and effort are not wasted in the process.

Really, and do you want your doctor to be the cheapest dude in town? What about the building you are in? Would you like to know it was put together with the cheapest possible materials? By guys who are paid piecework and therefore throw things together as fast as possible? Bribe the inspectors because the cost analysis shows that it is cheaper and more "efficient" to just pay the bribe than it is to do it right? My father spent over thirty years as an electrician, many as a foreman and job super. I spent two years as an apprentice, as well as various other jobs. I myself am the web link on this one. I seem to remember an old saying about "you get what you pay for".

The imposition of burdensome regulations, is another.

Yeah, like those pesky child labor laws and safety regulations.;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I read an article in the times that said these kind of stupid Reaganesque cute little one liners and quips with an impish grin that misdirect win debates over boring lengthy factual statements. It said Obama needs to work on that. :lol:



I have never observed anyone to propose such a thing, as a general policy.

I would be curious to know then what your experience has been. I have seen it many times. My wife has seen it. When she was a manager at a call center, she received a book and training telling her how to stop unization and collective bargaining. I saw the same material as a call center assistant manager. Every time I log into my company website right in the left margin as plain as day, in bold, in it's own special section, is a link called "about unions". I would share its contents but I'm sure it is private company material. Suffice it to say that it is a total demonizing of unions and how they should be avoided. Last year Skywest spent a massive amount of money putting down an ALPA drive while telling us we should just trust our company and deal with any problems in a family one on one manner. Yeah, right.

a)
However, if other persons will do the job for less money (or whatever), then it is recognizable that the employees are, as a natural fact, not that valuable,

Regardless of how much time and money they invested in their training? How much personal sacrifice went into achieving their trade? Ok, I'll buy that you think that way, but it's a nice theory until it happens to you. The sad fact is it actually hurts the idiots doing the undercutting as well. There are several names for that sort of behavior by the way, "cut-throat", "rat", "scab" all come to mind. In addition, just because it is the most efficient way of doing "business", doesn't make it right. Also the attitude that anyone who doesn't accept this as the natural and correct order has basically a childlike mentality is exactly the kind of "culture" I express so much disdain for. I would ask you to keep this in mind the next time you board a plane or get in a high rise that the people involved are basically not that valuable and they might be trained or do their work accordingly. Now, some may buy that whole Gordon Gecko "Greed is good" thing, but as for myself, I will choose brotherhood and solidarity. I would actually like there to be casket bearers and mourners at my funeral.

b) Persons should be free, to choose whether they want to participate in a labor union, or not. This is what is meant by "right to work laws": a person may seek and gain employment, whether or not he is a member of a union. Furthermore, employees should be free from coercion - either by their employer, that the employee may not join a labor union, or by the labor union, that the employee must join.

They should also be free to organize without coercion if they so choose and that goes on quite frequently. I have no problem with anyone choosing not to join a union, what I have issues with is idiots undercutting and "devaluing" skilled trades.



Economist Thomas Sowell has several times written that there is quite a lot of economic mobility in the USA. Evidence is that a large fraction of persons who are in the lowest 20%, wrt wealth (or income; I forget which), tends not to remain there; and a large fraction of persons who are in the highest 20%, tends not to remain there. I don't know what this says about whether one can "be rich," but I also don't care.

What? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? My statement was about people being fooled into thinking they can get rich quick and their stupid greed causing problems. Unless my in-laws are a dream, and unless I imagined all those Don Lapre, Carlton Sheets, and Billy McDorkle ads, this idiocy is real.



Well, I'm guessing that you are referring to the current "mortgage crisis."

That and all the other get rich quick stupidity out there.


It is, in fact, not a result of a free market.

Bush's "ownership society" and all this "Flip this house" Had nothing to do with it? All those ads about instant equity and "I've only been in America for two weeks and I made money with no money down" Had nothing to do with it?

Their response was to offer "subprime loans" - loans provided at (temporarily, since subprime interest is below the cost to the lender) abnormally low interest rates, to enable persons with very little money, to buy a home.

And a gun was put to their heads forcing them to do it? And they made no money doing it?


This concept tends to be represented too simplistically.

No, it is not. Welfare is welfare, whether for a group or not. Either you believe in an absolute free market, or you do not.

Of course, government's interventions tend to have unpredictable and often adverse consequences. It seems that you have experienced that, and I'm sorry that it is so.

With all due respect sir, no, you are not. You spent an entire post basically saying that anyone who does not accept the devaluing of their place in the absolute free market is a naive child.
 

Urwumpe

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Post too long - did not read.
 

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Thread too boring - have not read.
 

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Our wishes of reading cannot be all identical at the same moment. In spite of my quite failing practice of the English, I read it. Replicant evokes there its life and it is not less interesting than all other rhetorics.
 

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Our wishes of reading cannot be all identical at the same moment. In spite of my quite failing practice of the English, I read it. Replicant evokes there its life and it is not less interesting than all other rhetorics.


That was my whole point. It's one thing to talk ivory tower theories, it's quite another to see their practical application in the real world. In a sense, given my profession, that is kind of my business, testing the practical application of someone else's theories........
 

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Post too long - did not read.

LOL, reminds me of Mike Meyers' old Saurday Night Live skit Sprokets in which he played a rude West German artsy underground television talk show host. He would dress in all black clothes and when his guests would start talking, he would interrupt them in mid sentence with, "Your story grows tiresome."

sprockets1.jpg
 

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Anyone have any thoughts on the most recent debate?
 

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I thought it came out a draw. Hardcore partisans are going to say their guy won. I wasn't particularly impressed with either of them.
 

fort

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B Obama.
http://blog.indecision2008.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/wordle_obama_lg.jpg

J Mc Cain.
http://blog.indecision2008.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/wordle_mccain_lg.jpg

Blog
http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/09/27/the-wordle-debate-barack-obama-thinks-john-mccain-knows/


-----Posted Added-----


Some figures in report with the debate of Friday spent concerning the foreign politics. Specifically: the international opinion with respect to the fight against Al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda not weakening - BBC poll

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7638566.stm


The article from Le Monde today.

The war against Al-Qaida would not weaken terrorist nebula

The idea according to which the "war against terrorism" carried out by the United States did not weaken Al Qaida is very widespread throughout the world, and many are those which think that it even reinforced islamist nebula, reveals a survey published Monday September 29 by the BBC. On average, only 22% of the questioned people think that Al-Qaida was weakened, while 29% think that this countryside did not have any effect and that 30% estimate that it made the organization stronger. A majority of probed say to have a negative opinion of the action of nebula Al-Qaida, except in two country-keys for the fight against terrorism: Egypt and Pakistan.

The Egyptians are 20% to have a positive Al-Qaida opinion, 40% having a neutral opinion, and they are only 35% to see nebula in a negative way. In Pakistan, 19% of the questioned people see Al-Qaida in a positive way, 22% in a neutral way and 19% in a negative way. When one asks them who - the United States or Al-Qaida - is on the way to gain the battle, probed of fifteen countries estimate that there is no winner. In Kenya, Nigeria and in Turkey, the dominant opinion is that of a victory of the United States. And it is in France (48%) and in Mexico (48%) where one meets more the opinion that "the war against terrorism" ended to reinforce Al-Qaida. On average on the 23 studied countries, 10% of probed think that Al-Qaida is gaining the battle, 22% that in fact the United States will arise victorious and 47% that there will be no winner. Even of the United States, 34% only of probed think that Al-Qaida was weakened, and 26% are persuaded that the war against terrorism does not have an effect or made Al-Qaida stronger (33%).


"In spite of its crushing military power, the war which carries out America against Al-Qaida is seen largely like having led to a dead end, and much even believe that it reinforced Al-Qaida", observes Steven Kull, director of Program one International Policy Attitudes of the University of Maryland. For this study, the company of Globescan survey questioned 23.937 adults in 23 country between on July 8 and on September 12, 2008.
 

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Because of the nature of Al-Qaeda simply killing Bin Laden wouldn't make much of a difference. It would be a bigger deal than when we kill the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq (which we've done multiple times), but somebody would replace him.

The war in Afghanistan was against the Taliban. With the purpose of replacing their government with a democratic one that would not allow Al-Qaeda to operate freely within its borders. Basically Al-Qaeda likes to operate from ungoverned areas so they can be in control. Examples of such places are Waziristan and Somalia.

Iraq was never about WMDs and Al-Qaeda wasn't in Iraq at that time. The reason was 'to plant the seeds of democracy.' The Idealistic way of saying it was that to make Iraq such a successful and free countries that everyone else in the middle east would say 'I want to be Iraq'.

Here's the flip side to invading Iraq. Iraq is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to Al-Qaeda. Why? If you take the time to learn Al-Qaeda's goals they are:
1) Get the US out of the holy lands (Saudi Arabia)
2) Install replace secular governments in the Middle East with islamic ones (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuait, and the other sultanates and secular governments).
3) Unify the middle east into a caliphate centered in Iraq.
4) Restore the islamic empire to its greatest extent.
5) Eventualy get the whole world.
Now Al-Qaeda knows 3, 4, & 5 are basically never going to happen, but these are still their goals.

Iraq is basically the crown jewel for Al-Qaeda. If Iraq succeeds, Al-Qaeda fails. So Al-Qaeda MUST fight in Iraq (and they did and are). I don't feel like enumerating again, but Al-Qaeda is losing there.

EDIT:
here is a reference regarding Al-Qaeda's goals:http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism.html


-----Posted Added-----


The current mess in Afghanistan is that Taliban and Al-Qaeda are operating out of Waziristan. Its a tribal region that historically has not been managed by Pakistan. The issue is that the local Wazirs are protecting them. Their culture emphasizes being hospitable to guests and the Taliban never did anything to them.

So when the US bombs Al-Qaeda targets in Waziristan they don't think: "Gee, we're getting bombed because of our guests." instead it is "The US is bombing us. The solution is Pakistan to retake, govern and police the area. They will encounter resistance until the Wazirs notice that Al-Qaeda and the Taliban is is now fighting their own people.

The Iraqi people tolerated and even supported Al-Qaeda in Iraq as long as they only killed foreigners and government officials. When they tried to start a sunni/shia civil war they lost their popular support. Nobody likes anyone who kills civilians.

Its always worth saying that the problem is a small, but violent minority. The issue is when the general population tolerates this minority (reasons could be fear, sympathy, apathy .etc).
 
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