New Spaceplane Project

[GregBurch]

I know I said I wouldn't do another spaceplane for a while, but an idea for a 5-place spaceplane came to me a couple of months ago and I've been working on it for a while now. I'm posting some "sketches" to see if there's some comment on the basic aerodynamics. As usual with my "future history" series, this design is premised on a pretty mature "diamond-phase" molecular nanotechnology circa 2080-2100, with the dry weight of the spaceplane and 5 standard humans being in the 4-5 MT range. Otherwise, no "magic physics" -- i.e. isp for LH/LOX is assumed, although the thrust/Wt ratio is much greater than what would be achievable with current materials. The energy envelope is probably about like my previous spaceplanes, i.e. Mach 10-11 for the first stage at c. 150-175-kft, and c. 15kmph at c. 90-95 km for separation of the spaceplane.

At any rate, here are the sketches:

I'd be interested in whatever comments ya'll might have.

GB

 

[fresh squid]

My comments.
How about Wow! and bring it on!

 

[pattersoncr]

Greg,
First off, the sketches look great.
Second, I would love to see the results if you were to team up with a good programmer. I think you've taken SC3 about as far as it can go and that some cusom .dll are really required to do justice to your beautiful modeling skills.

Keep up the great work!

 

[GregBurch]

Greg,
First off, the sketches look great.
Second, I would love to see the results if you were to team up with a good programmer. I think you've taken SC3 about as far as it can go and that some cusom .dll are really required to do justice to your beautiful modeling skills.

Keep up the great work!

My one experience with very close collaboration on an addon-- with Scott Conklin on the X-15 addons -- was really very good and, I think turned out some very good results. But from my experience with other online collaborations, that's very much the exception rather than the rule.

It's true that there are things I'd do if I could find someone to code the .dll -- more accurate aerodynamics, and multiple engine modes, for instance. But it would be hard for me to give up "creative control" on these "future history" addons. I have a very specific vision I'm trying to implement.

At any rate, here's another concept for the "aero-lifter" first stage that's probably more "Mach-10-ish" looking:

GB

 

[Andy44]

Is this 2 stage or 3, Greg? It looks like 3.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

I know I said I wouldn't do another spaceplane for a while, but an idea for a 5-place spaceplane came to me a couple of months ago and I've been working on it for a while now. I'm posting some "sketches" to see if there's some comment on the basic aerodynamics. As usual with my "future history" series, this design is premised on a pretty mature "diamond-phase" molecular nanotechnology circa 2080-2100, with the dry weight of the spaceplane and 5 standard humans being in the 4-5 MT range. Otherwise, no "magic physics" -- i.e. isp for LH/LOX is assumed, although the thrust/Wt ratio is much greater than what would be achievable with current materials. The energy envelope is probably about like my previous spaceplanes, i.e. Mach 10-11 for the first stage at c. 150-175-kft, and c. 15kmph at c. 90-95 km for separation of the spaceplane.

I'd be interested in whatever comments ya'll might have.

The first stage, the big lifter plane, you say it reaches Mach 11. Does it use (sc)RAM-jets? If so, what propulsion does it use to take off?
If it uses gas turbines for the first part of the flight, lower speeds/altitudes, it would need some sort of complex double propulsion system, gas turbines combined with RAM jets (with no moving parts) for the higher speeds.
Wouldn't it simpler to use gas turbines, and release it at a lower altitude (like 20/30 km) and with lower speed?
In that case, the 2nd stage could combine a RAMjet/ rocket propulsion system, which is I think less complex compared to a turbine/RAMjet system, but I'm not sure about that, and the most efficient way to get the 2nd stage into orbit..


regards,
mcduck

 

[Usonian]

How big is this thing? Will it fit on any known Orbiter runway? Or is this a late 21st century version of building a boat in the basement:lol:

I look forward to launching and landing all these planes in a single mission. I am reinforcing my CTRL-F3 keys in anticipation.

BTW, Greg, thanks for the Orbiter-Forum tip - this appears to be "the place."

 

[GregBurch]

The first stage, the big lifter plane, you say it reaches Mach 11. Does it use (sc)RAM-jets? If so, what propulsion does it use to take off?
If it uses gas turbines for the first part of the flight, lower speeds/altitudes, it would need some sort of complex double propulsion system, gas turbines combined with RAM jets (with no moving parts) for the higher speeds.
Wouldn't it simpler to use gas turbines, and release it at a lower altitude (like 20/30 km) and with lower speed?
In that case, the 2nd stage could combine a RAMjet/ rocket propulsion system, which is I think less complex compared to a turbine/RAMjet system, but I'm not sure about that, and the most efficient way to get the 2nd stage into orbit..

It's 3 stages, an air-breathing 1st stage, a pure rocket 2d stage that gets you ~90% of the way to orbital velocity, and then the last little bit of delta-v from the rockets in the spaceplane.

As for the propulsion in the first stage, I'm envisioning something like this:

http://www.ms.northropgrumman.com/PDFs/TRJ/TRJ-2006/FW/06FW_Hinz.pdf

The turbines and sc/ram jets are both in the pods on the wings. Vanes direct the airflow to one or the other, as is indicated in the referenced design study from Northrop.

GB

 

[GregBurch]

As for lower altitude and lower speed aero-first stages, I've experimented with those -- with poor results. The flight envelope of the 2d stage needs to be very broad. The rocket equation really gets you. I've found that the best and most realistic thing is to get about 30-40% of orbital velocity on the first stage and do your first separation at over 100kft.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Thanks for the explanation. At first I thought the small 3rd stage was just an extra spaceplane, going into orbit together with the 2nd stage. But now it makes more sense.
Also, thanks for the PDF, interesting article. Apparently combining gas turbines and ram jets in one plane is doable indeed.

regards,
mcduck

 

[n0mad23]

Very interesting doc from Northrop Grumman. Thanks for posting this one.

I had no idea that combining engines like this in one platform was possible. What a great idea to draw from for your own project.

 

[GregBurch]

Here's an update:

The first stage is almost complete. The spaceplane's about 95% done, but the second stage still needs plenty of work.

GB

 

[GregBurch]

Checking out the new spaceplane mock-up:

GB

 

[Andy44]

Wow, that looks like a lot of work for a bunch of static models, Greg, but very cool.

 

[GregBurch]

Wow, that looks like a lot of work for a bunch of static models, Greg, but very cool.

Well, this project cuts the ergonomics to the bone: My goal was to design the minimum aerodynamic envelope that could hold five people and associated propulsion, life support and other gear, along with a folding docking mechanism. So, having gotten to this point, I wanted to see if it actually made sense. The four passenger figures are actually demonstrating the four steps in ingress, clockwise from the front.

Wait'll you see how the toilet works ...

GB

 

[Andy44]

If you built those figures from scratch in Anim8or then hat's off to you. Those are mad modeling skills.

 

[GregBurch]

If you built those figures from scratch in Anim8or then hat's off to you. Those are mad modeling skills.

Newton, no! That's Poser 7, a Christmas gift (I'd been working in Poser 4 for 7 years). Developing the ergonomics involves a process of moving back and forth between Animator and Poser, over and over. That render is then done by exporting (via Poser) to Bryce.

The final figures that will be in the spaceplane's seats in the Orbiter mesh are created in Poser, then painstakingly cut down and edited by multiple passes through 3DSMax's mesh optimization tool and then trimming and mending the optimized meshes in Animator. By this process, I get a Poser figure from between a one and five MB 3ds mesh fresh out of Poser down to under 500kb -- usually as little as 150kb.

GB

 

[Andy44]

Nevertheless, I tip my hat to such a level of effort.

 

[tl8]

Nice to see you over high Greg, Also that new spaceplane will give the DG's a run for their money

 

[doggie015]

Checking out the new spaceplane mock-up:

===SNIP PICS===
GB

Whoa!!! if the boarding is animated in the final release... this will be the first addon where you can see people getting on and off! I sense a revolution here...