Orbiter Online - Milestone 0 Goals Thread

[Hielor]

I think its possible to have a solar system smaller than ours that is still realistic. At least in terms of physics it would be 100% realistic.

EDIT: I think you understood wrong. The idea is not to modify our solar system and make it smaller; the idea is to make another whole new solar system with other planets, that is smaller than ours.

There is little difference between making a half-scale version of our solar system and using ships which have 1G acceleration, and using the full-scale version of our solar system with ships that have 2G acceleration.

That's my point--this is just the same solution, but instead of making the ships faster you're making the world smaller.

 

[Kaito]

I also don't think time bubble universes work well.

If I play faster in time, I will get punished in the short term when dealing with players that play slower: My transactions will be scheduled for the slower player, so he has no negative effects and ensured income, while I have to wait until he does his actions, for receiving money in the past, that was missing for me until he paid.

Keep in mind, the way I envision this, when you separate, you are effectively on a separate server. Even if the other players catch up to your time, they are on a separate "server", so only your actions would affect you

There can only be one time per server, all else opens a huge can of worms, which I can't even slightly imagine how to solve it.

I agree, but that's why were trying to iron this out now

And coordinating between multiple servers with multiple times would also be a PITA, so you eventually will have to reside with one time per universe.

Right, coordinating would be difficult, but it happens all the time in the real world.

Now, a bit more on the House analogy:
There are two separate "houses", and we act independently of each other. But, I can go to his house, interact with it, and leave when I please.
about the money:
When you go into his house, are you carrying your wallet? Maybe, maybe not. You can go in there with your money and what your ship is carrying, and leave with whatever money you have left, and what you picked up. Now, this leads to an interesting idea: a sort of malicious gang. The ability to travel to multiple systems and keep what you take could mean that some people could go to my time, mine my moon, then leave without any repercussions from me, unless I do it back.

How to prevent this, i'm not sure. I'll write up more later, i'm kinda busy at the moment...

 

[Hielor]

Keep in mind, the way I envision this, when you separate, you are effectively on a separate server. Even if the other players catch up to your time, they are on a separate "server", so only your actions would affect you

The thing that really bugs me about this plan is that if people can create their own permanent time-bubbles, it kind of defeats the purpose of having a multiplayer addon in the first place.

What about using the time-bubble concept as a sort of "instancing" model, similar to how many modern MMORPGs use instanced dungeons to allow many people to be doing the same content at the same time without interfering? If you have an action which needs to take awhile, you use an time-buble to do it.

Now, a bit more on the House analogy:
There are two separate "houses", and we act independently of each other. But, I can go to his house, interact with it, and leave when I please.
about the money:
When you go into his house, are you carrying your wallet? Maybe, maybe not. You can go in there with your money and what your ship is carrying, and leave with whatever money you have left, and what you picked up. Now, this leads to an interesting idea: a sort of malicious gang. The ability to travel to multiple systems and keep what you take could mean that some people could go to my time, mine my moon, then leave without any repercussions from me, unless I do it back.

How to prevent this, i'm not sure. I'll write up more later, i'm kinda busy at the moment...

They need to be either truly independent, or correctly coordinated. Otherwise you will inevitably have an imbalanced game.

 

[canadave]

The thing that really bugs me about this plan is that if people can create their own permanent time-bubbles, it kind of defeats the purpose of having a multiplayer addon in the first place.

Wouldn't it be a different story if, in this case, the players could all communicate with each other? That way they could arrange to enter accelerated time bubbles simultaneously and together if they wish?

Sorry if I've missed the major points made in this thread...I see quite a lot of brainstorming going on, and that's great to see. Please don't take my suggestion to follow as criticism.

But I think that the first aim of multiplayer should be to just keep it simple and achieve a proof of concept. I'm thinking that it'd be an amazing achievement to simply have a server that is in real time, and allows Earth-local missions--period. That scenario allows the most enjoyment for most people playing together, I'd suspect. Even if you could somehow figure out how to do some sort of time-acceleration shenanigans so that people could travel together to, say, Jupiter....how many people are actually going to do it, and how would that work in practice? Two people start together in Earth orbit, say "OK, ready? We're going to Jupiter...let's enter 1,000x time acceleration now." Then what? There's no way they'd stay close enough together to even see each other (at least not very long). And even if they could, so what? They're cruising through interplanetary space together, at 1,000x, staring at each other out the window of their ships. For the months it takes to get to Jupiter.

I mean, maybe it could technically be done. And maybe some people might find that type of long-distance journey with others appealing for some reason. But it seems to me that if effort is to be made in developing a multiplayer system, devote the effort to an Earth-local system, where at least players have half a chance of encountering each other and doing something together in real time.

Hmmmm....just thinking about this some more now. Could such a server not operate by starting at T=0.00.00, and running for a set amount of time, and then automatically reset and start a new "mission"? For instance, let's say the server is programmed to run a scenario that includes ISS, starting on March 5, 2012 (arbitrary date). The server commences, and people can join or leave at any time while the server is running. The server runs for, say, 10 days of real time (yes, it would require a server somewhere to actually stay running for 10 days). During that time, people can do whatever personal missions they want; try to dock with ISS along with a friend; gather 4 ships in LEO and try to fly in formation; race each other from KSC to a base on the other side of the world and see who gets there first; whatever.

After 10 days, the server would announce, "Mission time completed; server resetting in one minute." Then it would reset, and start a new mission, with new initial parameters and included elements if desired (maybe this new mission includes an addon like World of 2001, places incoming players in Jupiter orbit or on Jupiter moon bases, and runs for four days instead of 10).

I envision it as something like multiplayer war games like Delta Force...you have a server running various scenarios that play out in a certain amount of time and then start over. Players enter a lobby area where they can choose which game they want to play in (in our example, the Earth orbit one and the Jupiter one...players would enter the lobby and see "Around The Earth In 10 Days" and "Jupiter Exploration", and could then choose which one they want to enter).

Just tossing out ideas here, have no idea of the ease of programming....but I do think that you guys should start with something as simple as possible, and see if you can get that running...then work your way up from there.

If any of this sounds retarded, chalk it up to two things: 1) it's 3:45am local time here, I've been awake for 20 hours, and I'm just babbling at this point; and 2) I'm not a programmer and have no idea what is involved

 

[Hielor]

A couple thoughts here from a discussion Face and I had in the IRC. Pretty scattered, but could be useful to have written down for the future.

On FTL:
If FTL is chosen as the method of getting around, it would need to be limited somehow. Perhaps there's a long wait for the system to "recharge" after each use (for onboard systems), perhaps the gates only jump ships once an hour (for external infrastructure).

One other possibility that's more unique is the Traveller way of doing things: if your ship attempts to jump to FTL while within 100 diameters of a celestial body (or attempts to arrive within that distance), it increases your chances of having some kind of a failure of the system (often of the explosive kind of failure). The closer you are, the more likely it is to fail, and at something like 10 diameters or less you're just asking to get yourself killed.

Using something like that would still require people to use newtonian mechanics to get around in the vicinity of planets/moons, and to get out to a "safe jump distance," without requiring long interplanetary trips to be too tedious.

On Resources:
I think that having truly limited resources in a persistent world is infeasible for a game, or at least extremely unfriendly to newer players joining on "mature" servers (since all of the easy-to-access resources will have been mined, and in the worst case it might be literally impossible for a new player to get to resources).


I see two options (which could be combined to any degree, and there's probably more):

• Make resources limited by time spent mining them rather than by the actual amount that exists. Many games have used this model; the more time you spend playing, the more resources you get. Resource flow into the system becomes limited by how much time players spend doing it, and/or the time to transport the materials. SWG and ATitD used similar methods, each with a few added twists.
• Have "nodes" of minerals which can be mined for some finite amount, but once exhausted they respawn in a day or week or something, not necessarily exactly in the same location, but nearby. The "limit" is based both on the time spent working on it (in effect, the time spent hunting for nodes) and the rate at which resources become available. This is the system that WoW uses.

 

[Face]

Well, with poll results and discussion here, I think we've come to a point where it seems like outlining the rough system like follows is possible:

1. Live-multiplayer.
2. No individual time acceleration at first. Maybe admin-driven "global" acceleration.
3. Near-term realistic setup with appropriate vessel capabilities. I.e. a SSTO is possible, a reusable ship can be used that needs fuel, oxygen, etc.
4. FTL "vehicle" for the sake of fast interplanetary transport. As low on Unobtanium as possible.
5. Simple economics like in: up to 10 unlimited resources you can mine, build, use, buy and sell with credit-system; ship upgrades for e.g. engine ISP or different ship
6. Simple mission/demand-based stories. Like in ISS needs resupplies, Moon base has ore to transport, PAX transport to mars...

"Simple" in the outlines above is meant as in "whatever is needed to make it work" as apposed to "how many details can be brought in".

Is this a possible least common denominator for a MMORPG as imagined by most folks here? Please feel free to kick out a point or put another up you feel absolutely necessary for a first MMORPG prototype.

For those who are interested in the time-bubble concept, I've put some notes up on pastebin. Mind you, it is not "ready" to be posted as a complete concept, but it tries to explain the mind-boggling time-travel-issues a bit better. Thing is: for a first prototype, this kind of concept is a NO-GO for sure.

regards,
Face

 

[Urwumpe]

1. I think limiting the number of resources to a fixed story-dependent maximum is bringing the game too much in the RTS atmosphere, I would suggest leaving this open and instead permit more goods and resources to be added along the way.
2. Instead of concentrating on pure cargo hauling/resource extraction/resource consumption, there should also be base building, SAR and science missions. Base building would be rather trivial, SAR could be done even without large programming (especially if players organize distress calls themselves), science would be extremely hard, but IMHO a generally desired type of mission. And space tourism might also be interesting for earning money, additionally to PAX hauling.
3. FTL is maybe not needed, accelerated transfers could also work when the specific impulses of the engines go into the deep-nuclear region. Jupiter could be reached in weeks, instead of years, if you just put enough Delta-V into the burns.
4. Stories should be more complex chains of missions, Missions should contain scripted story-line based missions and generic, automatically generated background missions, like resupplies, base crew transports, etc. Ideally, story-lines should be written by the players, for example if one group of players has the money to build their own base and pay their own resupply missions. But for that you need to create motivations.

 

[BHawthorne]

Seems like a reasonable outline of what could be possible.

 

[Face]

1. I think limiting the number of resources to a fixed story-dependent maximum is bringing the game too much in the RTS atmosphere, I would suggest leaving this open and instead permit more goods and resources to be added along the way.
2. Instead of concentrating on pure cargo hauling/resource extraction/resource consumption, there should also be base building, SAR and science missions. Base building would be rather trivial, SAR could be done even without large programming (especially if players organize distress calls themselves), science would be extremely hard, but IMHO a generally desired type of mission. And space tourism might also be interesting for earning money, additionally to PAX hauling.
3. FTL is maybe not needed, accelerated transfers could also work when the specific impulses of the engines go into the deep-nuclear region. Jupiter could be reached in weeks, instead of years, if you just put enough Delta-V into the burns.
4. Stories should be more complex chains of missions, Missions should contain scripted story-line based missions and generic, automatically generated background missions, like resupplies, base crew transports, etc. Ideally, story-lines should be written by the players, for example if one group of players has the money to build their own base and pay their own resupply missions. But for that you need to create motivations.

You are right in all points regarding making the experience better. But is it really needed for a first prototype?

We have discussed all kinds of ideas for it, I really think we should focus now on the question: what is the minimum setup to kick-off MMORPG?

Can we at least take live-multiplayer, no time-acceleration and a money-system for granted?

regards,
Face

 

[Urwumpe]

You are right in all points regarding making the experience better. But is it really needed for a first prototype?

A prototype means still that there has to be a reasonable chance to extend it to the final version, IF it works. Limitations that would require a relaunch of development are not that fine.

We have discussed all kinds of ideas for it, I really think we should focus now on the question: what is the minimum setup to kick-off MMORPG?

Minimum: Basic game mechanics running and playable.

This does not mean that the content (like I consider goods and resources) has to be limited by software. Jobs might be different, but for example the SAR mission would already be possible when players just communicate with each other ("I'm stranded on Mars, can somebody pick me up?"). Would it be that hard to manage this kind of mission in a prototype already?

Can we at least take live-multiplayer, no time-acceleration and a money-system for granted?

Of course. Barter trade would be much harder to implement. :lol:

 

[Face]

A prototype means still that there has to be a reasonable chance to extend it to the final version, IF it works. Limitations that would require a relaunch of development are not that fine.

Ok, I understand. The limitation "10" was brought up just for limiting the prototype complexity a bit. It was not meant to be a hard limit for the implementation, though, like in "just use res[10], we won't need more anyway".

This does not mean that the content (like I consider goods and resources) has to be limited by software. Jobs might be different, but for example the SAR mission would already be possible when players just communicate with each other ("I'm stranded on Mars, can somebody pick me up?"). Would it be that hard to manage this kind of mission in a prototype already?

No. This is a good idea. So we can add communication as a must-have.

Let's refine it a bit:

1. Live-multiplayer.
2. No individual time acceleration at first. Maybe admin-driven "global" acceleration.
3. Near-term realistic setup with appropriate vessel capabilities. I.e. a SSTO is possible, a reusable ship can be used that needs fuel, oxygen, etc.
4. FTL not needed first, can be "emulated" with high-g feasable technology (like e.g. nuclear gas-core etc.). Later additions of FTL "vehicles" possible.
5. Simple economics like in: up to 10 unlimited resources you can mine, build, use, buy and sell with credit-system; ship upgrades for e.g. engine ISP or different ship. No hard limit in amount of resources, more can be added.
6. Simple mission/demand-based stories. Like in ISS needs resupplies, Moon base has ore to transport, PAX transport to mars...
7. Player communication and interaction is enabling SAR type missions.

 

[Urwumpe]

Would a basic MMORPG vessel framework be part of the prototype or can this be handled on the client/server side?

 

[DarkWanderer]

Would a basic MMORPG vessel framework be part of the prototype or can this be handled on the client/server side?

I've studied this question, and I prone to think releasing a framework is inevitable, due to following reasons:
- Upgrades and equipment, changing the characteristics of the craft. This RPG component will require too much work to implement in a plugin
- Network state synchronisation. Not all vessels even support proper track recording; and, in addition, using track recording fucntions would be a waste of bandwidth, since they output results as strings
- Game balance. Vessels should be restricted in some parameters - according to game "tech" levels and price
So, the answer is "yes". If an author wants his addon to be available online - it should be correspondingly adapted (which will be needed anyways due to copyright issues).

 

[Urwumpe]

Theoretically, we could already develop the framework now and provide an interface for the MMORPG work inside it. The first goal could for example be implementing the futuristic four default vessels of Orbiter in such a framework (Deltaglider, Shuttle-A, Shuttle-PB, Dragonfly).

 

[Juanelm]

Ok, I understand. The limitation "10" was brought up just for limiting the prototype complexity a bit. It was not meant to be a hard limit for the implementation, though, like in "just use res[10], we won't need more anyway".



No. This is a good idea. So we can add communication as a must-have.

Let's refine it a bit:

1. Live-multiplayer.
2. No individual time acceleration at first. Maybe admin-driven "global" acceleration.
3. Near-term realistic setup with appropriate vessel capabilities. I.e. a SSTO is possible, a reusable ship can be used that needs fuel, oxygen, etc.
4. FTL not needed first, can be "emulated" with high-g feasable technology (like e.g. nuclear gas-core etc.). Later additions of FTL "vehicles" possible.
5. Simple economics like in: up to 10 unlimited resources you can mine, build, use, buy and sell with credit-system; ship upgrades for e.g. engine ISP or different ship. No hard limit in amount of resources, more can be added.
6. Simple mission/demand-based stories. Like in ISS needs resupplies, Moon base has ore to transport, PAX transport to mars...
7. Player communication and interaction is enabling SAR type missions.

Sounds good. I still think it should be done on another solar system. A smaller solar system means maybe we don't need such unreal technologies for propulsion. Also, it could be shaped to maximize possibilities within the game: more planets to settle or really explore, etc. It would also be a new challenge flying in a place you have never flown before. I just think it would feel more like an adventure, being in another world you dont know and need time to explore, instead of being in the good ol Sol where you've seen everything.

I think it should be considered to see whats the general opinion, since I didn't see much discussion on this.

 

[Face]

So, the answer is "yes". If an author wants his addon to be available online - it should be correspondingly adapted (which will be needed anyways due to copyright issues).

I agree. This will help to keep implementation quirks down.

 

[DarkWanderer]

Theoretically, we could already develop the framework now and provide an interface for the MMORPG work inside it. The first goal could for example be implementing the futuristic four default vessels of Orbiter in such a framework (Deltaglider, Shuttle-A, Shuttle-PB, Dragonfly).

If you mean creating a framework that supports all of the above (ship equipment, multiplayer, cargo possibilities, etc.) and releasing it before the actual project...
Then yes, I see it that way too. Already in the TODO list for Milestone 1.

Theoretically, we...

I guess that means you want to do it as well?..

 

[Face]

Sounds good. I still think it should be done on another solar system. A smaller solar system means maybe we don't need such unreal technologies for propulsion. Also, it could be shaped to maximize possibilities within the game: more planets to settle or really explore, etc. It would also be a new challenge flying in a place you have never flown before. I just think it would feel more like an adventure, being in another world you dont know and need time to explore, instead of being in the good ol Sol where you've seen everything.

I think it should be considered to see whats the general opinion, since I didn't see much discussion on this.

I think it will bring in too much SciFi. In this case it would really be fiction.

In addition, a functioning MMO setup should be adaptable to other systems. I.e. no resource mapping should be hardcoded to a special celestial body. OTOH you would have to create this system first, when we already have a system known to work in reality. The Jupiter system with its moons can already provide a setup with many worlds reachable within days with near-term tech, if your character starts up on e.g. Europa.

regards,
Face

 

[Urwumpe]

I guess that means you want to do it as well?..

Yes, if this is a way to push things my way. :thumbup:

Also I have a nice black deltaglider-technology vehicle around here, which could be nicer in a multiplayer environment...

 

[Juanelm]

I think it will bring in too much SciFi. In this case it would really be fiction.

In addition, a functioning MMO setup should be adaptable to other systems. I.e. no resource mapping should be hardcoded to a special celestial body. OTOH you would have to create this system first, when we already have a system known to work in reality. The Jupiter system with its moons can already provide a setup with many worlds reachable within days with near-term tech, if your character starts up on e.g. Europa.

regards,
Face

I see, fair enough.

Going a bit ahead, perhaps Artlav can perfect his IRC MFD to use with Orbiter Online. There could be channels for each spaceport, where you could tune in and communicate with people near it, and maybe also each player could have his channel, so players can communicate in private between each other. That would take care of the communication part.