Updates Orion (MPCV) Updates and Discussion

Urwumpe

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Does the test flight on a Delta IV Heavy in 2013 not count?

I included that plans, but you know, no plan survives the first contact with the enemy.

Its still two (and a half) years to that, Orion is getting worked on, but the aspect that will delay it is actually funding. It currently gets about half of the funding needed for the development, even if you would strap things down and reduce it to a "Dragon plus", instead of a "Apollo reloaded". It is unlikely that more funding will go to the MPCV, especially if the private efforts in the COTS business really work out in their time schedule. Contrary to NASA, they have their funding plans for their projects rock solid, and only little financial uncertainty. NASA is making their recent announcements on hope. Hope that the funding will get raised for those projects that have a concept. But I would say, we all know that more money for NASA is just as impossible as congress permitting NASA any useful cost saving plans (Since they would cost maximal 8000 jobs in the whole USA, not accounting jobs created by the private spaceflight efforts).

So, only by funding, the project would need twice as long, as NASA plans. In 2013, there could be a orbital boilerplate done, but still nothing that resembles the real capsule, since a lot of the subsystems would still be deep in the testing phase with limited funding. In 2012 is a big election, and we all know that such elections also mean changes to NASA.

The MPCV will not be cancelled, because it would be unthinkable and not negotiable for the old-school NASA managers and their political supports. NASA without a manned spaceflight project? Rather the project would be, like the Space Shuttle successors, kept alive and funded with minimal money (which is still a lot), with the project label changing with every presidential election.

If SpaceX hits their milestones this year, the situation would be even worse for NASA: There would be a valid native US spacecraft around, that is better than Russian spacecraft, and only needs little money for getting the final changes towards manned crews done. And this spacecraft could even happily use existing NASA research as base for those parts that are missing. It would be pretty hard to sell why you need to redirect a few billion USD every year for the MPCV, if the capsule will actually never be used (by lack of funding) for those long-range exploration missions, that it is designed for.

You will have a capsule, that simply sits around in a hangar waiting for being used one day for new NASA glory. Which will never come, unless hell freezes over and NASA managers realize that simply begging for a little less money for a comfortable life without heavy fighting for spaceflight is not getting NASA anywhere except on the graveyard of history.

The only way out of this downward trend would not be a Orion test flight in 2013, that has as much engineering worth as the Ares I-X flight. I believe, the only option would be a major change inside NASA and those parts of the US spaceflight industry that grew fat on taxes in the past decades. NASA would have stop developing into a parallel society of spaceflight, and stop developing redundancies for being only virtually independent of private companies (in reality, Boeing, ATK and LockMart currently happily dictate NASA programs). NASA would have to build on private spaceflight for reaching further away. If the MPCV should have any worth, it would need to start beyond LEO and beyond what private companies with access to a public library, the AIAA electronic library and NASAs many technical report servers could do.

And NASA would also have to adopt the pace that private companies use in their development programs. Of course NASA has a different task as those private companies and NASAs research is way more basic and high risk as theirs. But there is also a too relaxed attitude to controlling progress and dealing with known problems. Which you always get eventually if people have ensured funding and no risk to really loose their jobs for doing such poor work. NASA rewards good and bad engineers the same way. And that is not really useful, because the old days of highly motivated and highly skilled NASA engineers are over, unless something happens inside NASA. The brand "NASA" has gotten a lot of damage since 1986.

Any complaints about that strategical analysis?

I know it reads pretty dark and depressive, but really: NASA is today back at the schedules of 2002. Remember ESAS?
 

Urwumpe

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Which way do you think the change that comes after election shall affect NASA funding in?

Like always so far, to the negative. It will just come along with a new set of priorities as well. I don't think Obama will lose (But I also don't think he can call the result a real victory), as long as the republican party is unable to spawn anybody who does not only attract the extreme right of the USA and who does not scare even moderate conservatives away, so we will likely just see another "correction" of the goals, instead of a big turn around.

It also depends a lot on the economic situation inside the USA - if it does not get up (really up) soon, any alternative for NASA that does not automatically rescue a few thousand engineers from ensured unemployment will have no chance in a political debate. If the economy is booming and jobs are created in ten thousands per month, it would be different, who would then care for a few highly qualified engineers that need to find a new job, which should be easy if they really wanted to?

It also depends on China... if China would no longer be so much depending on USA paying their debts back to them (fake communism wins over fake capitalism :lol: ), the financial situation of the USA would be much worse, and NASA would be deeply in the line of fire, despite being a pretty poor way to really save money in the USA.
 

Sky Captain

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With the planned moon landings canceled is the Orion really needed? Dragon likely will fly crew to the ISS sooner than Orion and Orion is overkill anyway for simple ISS crew rotation. There were some talk about going to NEO asteorids or Phobos, but would Orion really be useful there? Imagine spending several months in a small van.
They would need some sort of long duration habitat module for that kind of mission. A VASIMR propulsion module would also be very useful because of faster transit time and more cargo to take to destination. In the end there seems to be three key components needed for long missions to low gravity objects. A suitable habitation module, highly efficient engine and power source to run that engine to form a true space exploreration vessel. Also succesful testing of those componenets would lay the groundwork for missions beyond Mars orbit to main asteorid belt and further out.
 

GoForPDI

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Dragon is, at the moment, a cargo craft, designed for LEO ops. Orion is, at the moment, being developed for manned flight, with the whole point of the design focused on BEO. The two cannot be compared.

Orion is really just part of a step by step process to get Americans beyond LEO, it may not look so clear at the moment, but it will come in useful as a fully developed and proven design when NASA commits to actual architectures and plans. Wither this is a good idea or not is yet to be seen, but the underlying mantra of Obama's plan was to develop all the hardware and tech first, then see what you could do with it.

Remember, Dragon is not man rated yet. When it is man rated, it will no doubt do ISS crew rotations (along with any other CCdev craft). Orion would fly to the ISS as an early mission, but I doubt it would ever be used as a vehicle for LEO operations.

Have you seen the ''Plymouth Rock'' NEO mission proposal? It would involve two Astronauts and two Orions. One Orion would be a proper Orion, to be used for crew ascent and descent. The second, launched separately would not have a crew module, it would essentially be the Orion equivalent to the ATV or Progress. This second Orion would share the same Service module, and would house an airlock, MMU style units and supplies. One Orion would provide the burn for the trip there, rendezvous with the NEO, then the other would provide the burn for the trip home. NASA also seem to be looking into inflatables too.
 

T.Neo

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Of course Dragon is being developed as a manned vehicle... it's just that the manned variant is not being worked on right now, instead development is going towards the cargo variant.

Can't Dragon- or something like Dragon- be used for BEO missions, albeit in an altered and/or redeveloped fashion?
 

GoForPDI

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The heatshield could be used for Lunar, or even Martian re-entries. The rest of the spacecraft would need major re-designing however.

My point was, however, you can't compare two completely different spacecraft that don't exist yet.
 

T.Neo

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Ah, I realised it today... among some other things, you need better manuvering capability. And also changes to thermal management.

I still don't see why it should be impossible to develop a BEO version of Dragon. The actual limitations on the vehicle itself are rather minimal if you consider that it would only be used as a crew delivery/removal craft, and not habitation for the entire journey...

Dragon exists already. Dragon has even flown unmanned... it is years ahead of Orion at this point.
 

GoForPDI

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Its not impossible, if anything Dragon is a very basic capsule that could be upgraded to fit many types of mission. It does however lack a service module, it uses the draco thrusters to preform de-orbit maneuvers which are pretty small translation thrusters. They are great for LEO ops, but if you are gonna go lunar, you will need a service module and a big engine for course corrections, Lunar Orbit Injection and Trans Earth Injection. You would also need bigger fuel tanks for the long distance mission and you would also require better thermal shielding, aswell as better fuel cells or solar arrays. You're six man Dragon becomes a one or two man Dragon.

Dragon has flown unmanned, yes, but the one that flew lacked a docking port, docking radar and rear trunk. I have no doubt that if the Orion was as basic a capsule as Dragon, it would have flown already, but its not. Orion is a completely different spacecraft to the current Dragon.

I may be sounding biased towards Orion, but i'm not. Both are great spacecraft, I was really happy watching the COTS-1 mission. My point is, both spacecraft are being developed as two totally different things at the moment.

Dragon has been developed to be a very economical light, simple spacecraft that can carry cargo. Orion has been developed for BEO missions with four crew members with very advanced technology. For this reason, Dragon has flown first.
 
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IronRain

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They could replace the trunk by a service module. Then you have room for a larger engine, fuel tanks etc. Then you can use the Draco engines for small, precocious maneuvering.
 

GoForPDI

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Yeah, thats exactly what i'm saying. Dragon could be upgraded to handle such flights.

My main problem with people comparing Dragon and Orion is that they are two completely different spacecraft. If Orion had started out as a simple cargo vehicle, it would have been flying for a couple of years now.
 

C3PO

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Yeah, thats exactly what i'm saying. Dragon could be upgraded to handle such flights.

I would be very surprised if SpaceX doesn't have some plans for a "service module-like" trunk. Why else would they design the heat shield to handle Moon- and Mars-return reentries?
 

Urwumpe

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I would be very surprised if SpaceX doesn't have some plans for a "service module-like" trunk. Why else would they design the heat shield to handle Moon- and Mars-return reentries?

Because the difference between a lunar capsule and a LEO capsule is just a few kg of consumables more and it doesn't hurt to have a over-dimensioned heat shield on a LEO capsule because it buys you additional safety reserves if you have problems? The mass penalty is not that high, that you would really feel punished by that.
 

C3PO

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I'd still be surprised if they didn't have a few cards up their sleeves. :lol:
 

Urwumpe

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I'd still be surprised if they didn't have a few cards up their sleeves. :lol:

I am pretty sure, all good aerospace engineers have such Jean-Pütz*-Moments. Like EADS pretty sure almost has all the preparing work done in their engineering departments for turning the ATV into a manned capsule.

(*Famous German TV moderator and DIY-book author, reknown for the phrase "I have already prepared something here.")
 

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I can imagine Musk going "Here's one we prepared earlier" :rofl:
 

T.Neo

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Dragon isn't a pure cargo spacecraft... I feel very silly repeating myself... current development is focusing on the cargo variant (because cargo ops are more important at present).

I'm really skeptical of Orion having the "advanced technology" that somehow gives it a "super" capability over other spacecraft... both Dragon and Orion are quite modern vehicles... if anything, the inclusion of "advanced" technology on Orion just increases the price tag- "advanced" does not automatically mean "advantageous".

In addition, the docking system and cargo trunk are not that vital (well, they are, but they're not technological leaps in terms of spaceflight technology). If memory serves, the docking radar has already been tested on a shuttle mission, and the CBM system is already present on the station, and has already been used for berthing automated cargo spacecraft.

Orion has not flown yet, because it has launcher issues, the project is financed differently, and most importantly: there is no immediate need for it.
 

orb

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SPACE.com: NASA's First Orion Space Capsule Ships Out for Big Tests:
Engineers packed up NASA's first prototype of its new manned Orion space capsule at a New Orleans assembly plant today (Feb. 10) to begin a grueling round of ground and water tests.

The space agency shipped the Orion space capsule from its Michoud Assembly Facility to the Denver-based testing grounds of aerospace company Lockheed Martin, which is building the new astronaut-carrying spacecraft for NASA. The first unmanned test flight could occur in 2013, Lockheed Martin officials have said.

"This is a significant milestone for the Orion project and puts us on the right path toward achieving the president’s objective of Orion's first crewed mission by 2016," said Lockheed Martin vice president Cleon Lacefield, the company's Orion program manager. "Orion's upcoming performance tests will demonstrate how the spacecraft meets the challenges of deep-space mission environments such as ascent, launch abort, on-orbit operations, high-speed return trajectory, parachute deployment and water landings in a variety of sea states."

{...}

Click on the image to view larger version​
Lockheed Martin engineers at NASA's Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans, La., inspect the Orion space capsule ground test structure prior to shipping on Feb. 10, 2011. The crew-carrying spacecraft prototype will undergo rigorous testing to verify it can withstand the harsh environments of a deep space mission.
NASA​
 

GoForPDI

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It has now arrived in Denver, lets get this TPS on!

The MPCV has also been included in the FY2012 budget.
 
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