OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

Hielor

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The fact of the matter is, Windows is simply not the optimal tool for the vast majority of what I do. It was designed, is fine for, and is used by, 90.5% of people browsing the web (or some other, similar metric, I haven't delved into this too closely), according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp.
However, I am not 90.5% of people. Ad-hoc software development (often single use stuff) is what I spend most of my time doing, because I find it fun. My OS doesn't force me to do it (I often did it on windows too before I switched), but it sure does make it very easy. Windows doesn't let me do what I want as efficently as Linux does. And that's all, for me.

Now one might wonder, why do I proclaim these things publicly? Because in each case I jump into in this way, I have previously observed Windows being portrayed as the be all and end all of whatever is being discussed, which it clearly is not it that case. I want to let it be known to whoever might be observing that there are choices, and Windows may not be the optimal solution to their problems (as in my case). I am vastly happier with my computer than I ever was with a windows box, but I never would have even considered Linux as an alternative if I hadn't observed it in action elsewhere. I was able to make an informed choice, based on pros and cons of each system, and I am happier as a result of it. I want others to have the same oppurtunity.

No OS is the be all and end-all of everything, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise(about any OS) is in the OS-worshiping category.

I use Windows on my two good computers because they're for gaming, so I really don't have another choice for that. On my other laptops I use Linux because it's easier to develop for, and that's the primary reason i bought the damn things was to be MFDs in my simpit, and I kind of have to develop the software for that first.
 

Usquanigo

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The fact of the matter is, Windows is simply not the optimal tool for the vast majority of what I do. It was designed, is fine for, and is used by, 90.5% of people browsing the web (or some other, similar metric, I haven't delved into this too closely), according to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp.
However, I am not 90.5% of people. Ad-hoc software development (often single use stuff) is what I spend most of my time doing, because I find it fun. My OS doesn't force me to do it (I often did it on windows too before I switched), but it sure does make it very easy. Windows doesn't let me do what I want as efficently as Linux does. And that's all, for me.

Now one might wonder, why do I proclaim these things publicly? Because in each case I jump into in this way, I have previously observed Windows being portrayed as the be all and end all of whatever is being discussed, which it clearly is not it that case. I want to let it be known to whoever might be observing that there are choices, and Windows may not be the optimal solution to their problems (as in my case). I am vastly happier with my computer than I ever was with a windows box, but I never would have even considered Linux as an alternative if I hadn't observed it in action elsewhere. I was able to make an informed choice, based on pros and cons of each system, and I am happier as a result of it. I want others to have the same oppurtunity.

And why do I not present the counter arguments for the benefit of said possible observers? Because you're doing that quite well. Why work more than necessary?

See, this here is the crux.

Linux is fine, other than taking a jab for fun over the lack of buisness standard software or games, or perhaps pointing out the pointlessness of dual-booting (which I only do in response to fire coming this way in the first place), I don't ever take shots at Linux.

Meanwhile, we have you guys attacking Windows at EVERY opportunity, portrating it as Stalin's own love child, and spreading falsehoods or making HUGE issues out of absolutely nothing. And when someone responds to that, they end up effectively pouring gasoline on a fire. And of course it's always done with the implication that anyone who uses Windows doesn't actually USE (or know how to use) their computer. It IS an elitist approach and attitude. I'm simply pointing that out.

And that too is also the only reason I ever "defend" Windows. You really aren't ensuring people know there are choices, you are trying to spread propaganda, even if that's not your intent, that's the net effect of your actions.

As for development, it depends on the tools available, information available, APIs, and what's being developed, and of course, personal preference. But that doesn't make Windows evil or worthless or limiting.

BTW, if you have the Server CALs for a newer OS, then the older ones automatically qualify and you don't need to re-purchase them. 2K and NT Server do quite well on older hardware too. Conversely that doesn't mean Linux should never be used, but it's not the only opion nor a requirement in virtually any given case. Everything is a case by case basis.
 

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lol, that's right, line up and take your shots at me.

Well, you did fire the first round by saying Linux is pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
There are files on my computer that I'm not allowed to see without using third party software, and can't remove them in any way. This is my computer, not Microsoft's, and this is unacceptable.

Specify.

What? An IT worker who's never heard of Super-Hidden Files? While a registry hack will make them visible, it takes third party software to remove them. Many viruses use this to hide themselves. Processes can also be hidden, I've seen PC's using over 50% of the processor when the listed processes were using less than 5%

http://windowsitpro.com/article/articleid/14930/what-are-super-hidden-files.html

You can choose what drive the swap file is located on. This has been a recommended performance tweak since at least NT4.

Windows keeps relocating my swap file every time the specified drive has less than 12% free space, even though 12% of my 500Gb drive is four times as much space as it needs.

This is a non-issue and griping like that leads us to ultimate big brother where people are tracked via chip just because they don't want to remember which pocket they put their credit card or driver's license in.

So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?

Servers are easy, and preferred, and offer incredible potential. However this is a personal preference, not a limitation or issue with the OS itself. (If servers were impossible to come by, it would be different)

Preferred by who? People who make money selling them? It's obvious you've never owned a small business. You don't get ahead by buying things unless you absolutely need them. A dedicated server running $3000 (that's what a small business has to pay for MS Server, they don't get the big corporate discounts) of O.S. is a luxury, not a necessity. If you have plenty of HD space, a network capable printer, and a router, why do you need a server? It offers nothing you don't already have, it's just an additional expense with no ROI.

Funny, our animators (like many) need 3DS Max, and that's Windows. And 99% of all networks (more, really, I'm just giving you room) use Windows for a MULTITUDE of real-world buisness reasons.

They don't NEED 3ds Max, they just prefer it. There are plenty of other solutions, such as Maya, SoftImage, etc, that will run on Linux. Admittedly, 3dsMax has a slight advantage for people in the gaming industry. And the actual number is 74%percent (not 99%) for buisiness servers, and less than 40% for Web servers. Let's not forget that so many businesses use MS because there were no other options, since MS used (and was convicted in federal court) illegal buisiness practices to squash any competition, such as Dr DOS and OS2. Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.

No reason to hate on anything else. Maybe just buy a modern computer....

Once again you show no business sense. Why buy a new computer when the one you have works? The problem isn't the hardware, its the OS.

Quote:
And that's with eye candy enabled that makes Windows XP look like an Atari (have you ever seen the E17 desktop? Makes a Mac look lame), and also running Apache webserver and an E-mail server.
Pure personal opinion. I think a riced out civic looks like ass, but ricers think it's the meanest thing on the streets

E17 doesn't just look good, it's designed specifically to reduce eyestrain. Health is not "personal opinion". Though I agree completely on the Hondas. Always thought they look like Matchbox cars!

I'll never run a web server or email server on anything used as a desktop. That's just bad form. I don't care what application or OS it is. For that matter, a home user and 99.99% of everyone here has no need for a personal email server. That's just elitist geek snobism. You want to do it just so you can say that you do.

When you have limited resources sometimes computers have to perform more than one task. A low volume Webserver can easily share hardware with the part-time secretary's desktop - if you are using a secure jailing system.

Given that updates often require a reboot, that's disingenuous.

No, they don't. Even the kernel can be "hot-swapped" if you know what you're doing. There is absolutely no need to reboot a linux system for any other up-date. Windows needs re-booting for up-dates - not Linux.

I have a 2K server that runs IIS hosting our intranet, extranet, ftp server, and web forum, along with being the software library. Never had a problem with it. Been running for 5 years on the same hardware, and almost never rebooted (can't remember the last time it was, and the extranet and ftp server are used ALL the time).

So you're saying that you've been slacking off on the updates to that server?

Quote:
I freely admit that Windows has improved in many ways (but worsened in a couple)
Name them. Specifics.

See my original post for my comments on "protected path". See also the massive increase in hardware requirements and bloat.

Quote:
It's fine for the average home user, but not the best choice for anyone who depends on a computer for a living (unless you are a MCSE who depends on Window's failings to earn a living).
Which is why virutally every corporate desktop in the real world uses it.

Popularity is not a reflection of quality. Once again I'll remind you that MS is a CONVICTED monopolist. Most companies use Windows simply because they use Windows, and have never given any real thought to the alternatives. 10 years ago, there weren't any alternatives, and inertia keeps them going. People don't like change.
BTW, it's virtually all American corporate desktops. In Europe, Linux and even the Amiga have a substantial user base.

As a consultant I've been in more environments and server rooms and data centers than I could name, from banks to hospitals to publishers to niche companies. Nary a linux box in site

Look a little closer at the routers. More than half the routers sold in the last 5 years are running on a linux variant.

Yeah, the 'mentality' you and many others here have. Resentment, hatred (predjudice), and jealousy. Nice way to cherry pick examples too btw.

If I hated MS as much as you think, I wouldn't use it at all. And I find othing to be jealous of, I have something better. As far as cherry picking, would you rather I used examples no-one ever heard of? I could cite Ernie Ball Co, but unless you play guitar, you've likely never heard of them. They used Windows until MS pissed them off. Then they decided to look for an alternative, found Linux, and now wish they had switched sooner. Cheaper, more reliable, and no hassles from MS "Business Software Alliance" (the License Nazi's). Other companies/governments using Linux include : Bay Area Rapid Transit, Burlington Coat Factory, Conoco, Cisco (worldwide print operations), Digital Domain (movie special effects, incuding Apollo 13 and Titanic), City of Garden Grove, CA, Just Sports USA, Kaiser Aluminum, Mexico City government, Tommy Hilfiger, Royal Dutch/Shell, Toyota USA, Travelocity, U.S. Army (Land Warrior system), U.S. Federal Courts, U.S. Post Office, Panasonic, Largo Florida (all city office desktops), Alcoa Aluminum, Auto Zone, Bank of America, the Boston Stock Exchange, Canadian National Railways, Chicago Mercantile Exchange, Daimler/Chrysler, Dreamworks SKG, Ford Motor Company, Lockheed-Martin, New York Stock Exchange, Playboy Magazine, U.S. Navy, U.S. Veterans Administration, Vandebuilt University, Walt Disney. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Companies who have switched to Linux report that (on average) they have 65% fewer tech problems, and have reduced their IT bill by 50%.

BTW, I think it's funny that you mention that DEC's "sunk the Titanic" but didn't mention that they were running on Linux when they did so.

I'm not a Linux evangelist, I don't usually recommend it for people who want a home computer. Depending on their needs, I recommend XP Pro, or Mac. While Linux can make a good home PC, it takes more tech savvy than Windows or Mac to do it, so I tend not to recommend it for the "average" user. For a business, however, it offers many advantages over Windows or Mac. Low cost being the most important. IT expenditures are necessary, but tend to have a very low ROI. Minimizing IT expenses can make a huge difference to a small buisiness staying in buisiness. And I'd rather my government went with the most cost effective, reliable solution in every way. That means Linux, not spending thousands of dollars on "forced upgrades", and having to buy new hardware every 5 yearswhen the old hardware can get the job done just fine.
 

Usquanigo

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Well, you did fire the first round by saying Linux is pointless.

Read it again.



What? An IT worker who's never heard of Super-Hidden Files? While a registry hack will make them visible, it takes third party software to remove them. Many viruses use this to hide themselves. Processes can also be hidden, I've seen PC's using over 50% of the processor when the listed processes were using less than 5%

http://windowsitpro.com/article/articleid/14930/what-are-super-hidden-files.html

The registry is there to be changed. Doing so is NOT a "hack". And I'd love to see what you were running or got infected with to see CPU utilization that wasn't showing in the task manager with "show all processes" checked.



Windows keeps relocating my swap file every time the specified drive has less than 12% free space, even though 12% of my 500Gb drive is four times as much space as it needs.

You have posessed Windows then. It stays where I put it. And sometimes ya just gotta pay to play. When talking about the extreme duty you claim to put your machine through, it's personal stuff, and if you want to do it, there's a price for admission. That's just the way it is. Just like in cars, "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?".



So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?

Pretty much. It's called a slippery slope, also referred to by "one thing leads to another". It's just like the BS slung by that socialist FDR for the illegal (read UnConstitutional) National Firearms Act of 1934. People don't want to be responsible to know where THEY THEMSELVES are, so we have GPS tracked phones. Someone I used to work with championed the idea of using an implanted chip to carry medical and bank information and using it to purchase everything because "cash is a hassle".

Futhermore, if you're really that worried about it, use DFS. (BTW, home/me/music IS a location (even if virtual), just as much as C:\Orbiter is. Just shows how pointless your whole comment there is)



Preferred by who? People who make money selling them? It's obvious you've never owned a small business. You don't get ahead by buying things unless you absolutely need them. A dedicated server running $3000 (that's what a small business has to pay for MS Server, they don't get the big corporate discounts) of O.S. is a luxury, not a necessity.

Wrong. Just bought a new HP 1U with 2008, hardware was $750, and the OS was $1200. Not free, but a FAR cry from the 3 grand you (faslely - perhaps even intentionally?) claim.

As for the statement, they are preferred by buisnesses. Doesn't matter if it's Linux or Windows or AIX or Solaris or any other flavor. Better hardware, better containability and consolidation of hardware (means better physical security, better power protection, and lower climat control costs) and data (means easier backup (which means better security) and lower TCO when it comes to data wrangling, as well as greater ease of use for the userbase) and user rights (lower TCO, better security).

Even for the non-buisness people they are better than an endless string of desktops with stuff strewn about all of them. Pretty easy to get them too from buisnesses that are upgrading, or just run linux. lol Unlike you, I'm not full of unjustified predjudice about software. ;)



If you have plenty of HD space, a network capable printer, and a router, why do you need a server? It offers nothing you don't already have, it's just an additional expense with no ROI.

Read above. It offers plenty. You sit there and decry my "buisness savvy" and then turn around and display absolutely none of your own. I love that. lol



They don't NEED 3ds Max, they just prefer it. There are plenty of other solutions, such as Maya, SoftImage, etc, that will run on Linux. Admittedly, 3dsMax has a slight advantage for people in the gaming industry.

Training for hire-ees, existing content, hardware, existing network infrastructure, as well as minutae of use all DO require it. When the dept. started the lead animator had his pick, and they always need more equipment, and we are a tiny company with virutally no spare cash, best way to do that would be to use this super awesome linux that could make a 286 crunch 1500 frames an hour, right?



MS used (and was convicted in federal court) illegal buisiness practices to squash any competition, such as Dr DOS and OS2.

And here we see the hatred and resentment come out. I can just see you red in the face right now. lol Yeah, they ran their buisness like a buisnees SHOULD be run, and they are evil for it. Are you a communist too?

They MADE OS2. IBM couldn't market anything, make crappy hardware that isn't big-iron, and couldn't develop the product on their own. That's why it died. Boo hoo.



Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.

So? That's their choice and there's not a damned thing wrong with it. Only windows hating linux zealots have an issue with that.

Why did the IBM compatible PC dominate? Because people used it at work, so they wanted it at home. Why does Windows stay around? Well, because it works, is cheap to run and comes with PCs, but also because the userbase is pre-existing, they use it at home, used it in school, and used it in all their past jobs. That makes it cheaper too. ;) (you even acknowledged that in your snobish comments about a "home pc", and Mac has always sucked on a real network - if you want a real example, look at Novell Netware. They became redundant and overly complicated, so they went away. Oh well. That's how it goes)




Once again you show no business sense. Why buy a new computer when the one you have works? The problem isn't the hardware, its the OS.

lol! Right. Better to re-train ALL your employees to learn some alien OS (be it Mac, Linux, Solaris, ANYthing), and change the way they do everything. Yeah, most of the computer using workforce would be able to handle that easily and cheaply. http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com doesn't present a characiture, it presents a typical network user (especially sales guys).

Even with Linux, that's a 1 time deal. Meaning, if you remove your clutch-fan in favor of an electric one, you gain more efficiency, but when you need more power after that, you have to upgrade something. Same with linux, as people get newer home PCs, even as they just use an existing system, it starts feeling slow, this lowers productivity. Morale really is important btw. Further, as applications become more complex, they get bigger, this means they require more power. As power increases, more things can be done.

Following your line of "reasoning" to it's conclusion would leave us stuck on 8086s. Efficiency only gets you so far, and it also costs money on the back end. Who cares about it not being written in ultra tight assembly if you have a 3GHz P4 to run it on? It all ties together, and lets you do the things you do (including Orbiter), but you don't care.



E17 doesn't just look good, it's designed specifically to reduce eyestrain. Health is not "personal opinion". Though I agree completely on the Hondas. Always thought they look like Matchbox cars!

Work practices can do more to reduce risks than any GUI style or design. It's often "the man, not the machine".




When you have limited resources sometimes computers have to perform more than one task. A low volume Webserver can easily share hardware with the part-time secretary's desktop - if you are using a secure jailing system.

Bad practice. If the web-site is critical, it should not be on any system used by anybody, least of all a secretary, spills, kicked plugs, being shut off in frustration, etc, etc. Its just bad form. Period. There really is no excuse for it.



No, they don't. Even the kernel can be "hot-swapped" if you know what you're doing. There is absolutely no need to reboot a linux system for any other up-date. Windows needs re-booting for up-dates - not Linux.

Given that you talked about uptime comparison to Windows, which DOES require reboots for updates, my comment stands accurately.



Once again I'll remind you that MS is a CONVICTED monopolist.

Once again I'll remind *you* we have these wonderful toys BECAUSE of Microsoft. (and that being a convicted monopolist just means you're running your buisness well - or at least better than the competition)



If I hated MS as much as you think, I wouldn't use it at all.

If you were as well adjusted as you claim, you wouldn't be so offended by people pointing out the falsehoods in the anti-Windows hatred and showing the good points of Windows.



And I find othing to be jealous of, I have something better.

Yet you're awfully sensitive about it for some reason.



I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Companies who have switched to Linux report that (on average) they have 65% fewer tech problems, and have reduced their IT bill by 50%.

Yeah..... nice claims. That list is dwarfed by the list of Windows users, and I guarantee Windows is all OVER a lot of those places that you listed, AND that the ones where it's more scarce are not the norm when it comes to work force and hiring practices. BTW, people "reduced their IT bill" by off-shoring too. That also hurts the US economy, but it's a good thing anyway, right?

IT isn't expensive, poorly run IT, and managers who write checks for no reason lead to expensive IT (meaning buying toys for the geeks just because they want them).
 

Linguofreak

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And here we see the hatred and resentment come out. I can just see you red in the face right now. lol Yeah, they ran their buisness like a buisnees SHOULD be run, and they are evil for it. Are you a communist too?

No, they did not run their business as a business should be run. I'm not familiar with the interaction between IBM and Microsoft on OS/2, but I do know that Microsoft adopted a policy (which contributed to the failure of DR-DOS), of requiring that if vendors wanted to sell MS-DOS at all, they would have to purchase an MS-DOS license for every PC they sold. This guaranteed that Microsoft would sell one MS-DOS license for every license sold for any other OS for a PC, which made it next to impossible for any other company to compete in the PC OS market.

Such business practices do more harm than good to capitalism, and objecting to them is not communism.


-----Post Added-----


Even now, MS OEM licensing practices are anti-competetive. If a computer OEM offers Linux on it's computers, Microsoft won't give them an OEM discount price on Windows.

To be fair, the fact that Linux is free weakens your arguement a bit here. Linux does not "compete" in the traditional sense because it's not out to make money.

But Microsoft has used similar anti-competitive schemes against for-profit OS's in the past.
 

Tommy

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The registry is there to be changed. Doing so is NOT a "hack". And I'd love to see what you were running or got infected with to see CPU utilization that wasn't showing in the task manager with "show all processes" checked.
Several viruses avoid detection by not running as processes, the are merely threads. The can also run as interupts. Either way they don't show up in the task manager. I often have to deal with people who have set up there own small business network, and thes people get all kinds of funny things. Yes, that's largely due to bad practices (employees surfing porn, etc.), but it happens.

And sometimes ya just gotta pay to play. When talking about the extreme duty you claim to put your machine through, it's personal stuff, and if you want to do it, there's a price for admission.
No you don't have to "pay to play". You simply need to have a system that works, without making excuses for it's failures.

Better to re-train ALL your employees to learn some alien OS (be it Mac, Linux, Solaris, ANYthing), and change the way they do everything.
I can retrain someone to use Linux (KDE) in half an hour. Training them to use OpenOffice instead of Word can take longer, but most people can pick it up on their own in a couple days. It's just not that different from a user's point of view.

Even with Linux, that's a 1 time deal. Meaning, if you remove your clutch-fan in favor of an electric one, you gain more efficiency, but when you need more power after that, you have to upgrade something.
The point was that they don't need more power, they already have enough. They shouldn't be forced to get more power to run software bloated with features they'll never use.

Quote:
So me saying I don't care which drive the files in /Home/Me/Music are on is a cry for a big brother government? Can I have some of whatever you're on?
Pretty much. It's called a slippery slope, also referred to by "one thing leads to another". It's just like the BS slung by that socialist FDR for the illegal (read UnConstitutional) National Firearms Act of 1934. People don't want to be responsible to know where THEY THEMSELVES are, so we have GPS tracked phones. Someone I used to work with championed the idea of using an implanted chip to carry medical and bank information and using it to purchase everything because "cash is a hassle".
I take it you have a tin foil hat, you are paranoid. There was nothing in my comment that even comes close to suggesting anything of the sort. I simply said that there is no good reason I shouldn't be able to find a file simply by knowing what folder it's in, and not need to know what actual drive it's on. That's pretty much what MS is trying to do with the "virtual folders" or whatever they called it that was supposed to be in Vista. The ability to mount a drive or partition anywhere in the file tree is handy, and I'm sure MS would be doing that if they weren't stuck trying to be backwards compatible with the older DOS based versions.

Work practices can do more to reduce risks than any GUI style or design. It's often "the man, not the machine".
That doesn't negate the value of a more ergonomic interface. Every bit helps.

Bad practice. If the web-site is critical, it should not be on any system used by anybody, least of all a secretary, spills, kicked plugs, being shut off in frustration, etc, etc. Its just bad form. Period. There really is no excuse for it.
Not all websites are critical. For critical websites, a small business should be using a third party hosting solution with 24/7 techs, not hosting it themselves. The one I was talking about is used by a local school for inter-office E-mail and scheduling AV resources. In the event the host computer goes down, it can be hosted on another machine in minutes. Plenty robust for theirneeds, and leaves more money for actually teaching kids. That IS what schools do. For most small non-profits, $2000 is a significant portion of the annual budget. It's money that isn't being spent accomplishing the goal.

Once again I'll remind *you* we have these wonderful toys BECAUSE of Microsoft. (and that being a convicted monopolist just means you're running your buisness well - or at least better than the competition)
So shoplifting makes me a better shopper? You seem to have no respect for the law, perhaps that's why you are paranoid enough to see "big brother" where he doesn't exist. Are you perhaps an anarchist? Running a business illegaly is not running it well - just ask Arthur Anderson. Competion leads to innovation. By stifling the competition, MS has likely reduced the advancement of these "wonderfull toys".

Yeah..... nice claims. That list is dwarfed by the list of Windows users, and I guarantee Windows is all OVER a lot of those places that you listed, AND that the ones where it's more scarce are not the norm when it comes to work force and hiring practices.
I'm not the one making those claims, the companies that switched are. Why would they lie? 4 years ago, Windows had 96% of the desktop market worldwide. Now they have 90%. Yes, that's a lot, but look at it this way - In four years, the competion has increased their market share by 250%.

(BTW, home/me/music IS a location (even if virtual), just as much as C:Orbiter is. Just shows how pointless your whole comment there is)
I've moved the music collection four times as I added (larger) hardrives, but the pathname remains the same. Move your music files from C: to D:, fire up your player, load a playlist, and listen to the sweet sound of silence.

Who cares about it not being written in ultra tight assembly if you have a 3GHz P4 to run it on?
Anyone who can't afford that 3Ghz P4.

Better hardware, better containability and consolidation of hardware (means better physical security, better power protection, and lower climat control costs) and data (means easier backup (which means better security) and lower TCO when it comes to data wrangling, as well as greater ease of use for the userbase) and user rights (lower TCO, better security).
For a large business, yes that matters. For a small one, with less than a dozen computers, it doesn't. Extra hardware is an extra expense. How does adding yet another heat source help climate control? For a small company, having one persons desktop running the database solves the "data wrangling" problem nicely. Back-ups are created automatically on a daily basis (two backup files on two different PC,s for redundancy) and written to tape weekly - all automatically. The only effort required is for someone to swap the tape once a week.

Yes, I find MS's blatant disregard for the law to be offensive. I find Bernie Madoff's disregard for law offensive also. People with morals find that kind of dishonesty offensive. I guess you don't?

BTW, MS's suggested retail price for Server 2005 was $3000, the $1500 you quote is a "wholesale" price that small businesses and NPO's don't get.
 

Linguofreak

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Yes, I find MS's blatant disregard for the law to be offensive. I find Bernie Madoff's disregard for law offensive also. People with morals find that kind of dishonesty offensive. I guess you don't?

The problem here is that the law itself may or may not be offensive. Bloodspray's point is that, in his opinion, antitrust laws (or at least some anti-trust laws, such as the ones that have been leveled against Microsoft), prevent the effective management of a business, so that to run your business "the way it's supposed to be run" you have to break the law. I happen to disagree with him, and think that the laws in question are perfectly just. But you can't just say "it's illegal and therefore wrong," because the law can, in some cases, be wrong.
 

Tommy

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But you can't just say "it's illegal and therefore wrong," because the law can, in some cases, be wrong.

Have you ever seen the video of the hearings, or read the transcript? Bill Gates was caught lying several times, and the only reason he wasn't prosecuted for perjury is because a plea bargain was made.

If you disagree with a law, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.

And yes, monopolies are detrimental to capitalism, which relies on competition. MS knows full well that their monopolistic practices harm society and the economy, they just don't care because they get rich.

And Linux being free has nothing to do with it being a competitor. Most Distro's being used by businesses aren't free. Red Hat, and Suse are the most common in business, and neither is free for the Enterprise Editions.
 

Linguofreak

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Have you ever seen the video of the hearings, or read the transcript? Bill Gates was caught lying several times, and the only reason he wasn't prosecuted for perjury is because a plea bargain was made.

I'm not arguing he's not done anything wrong, I find Microsoft's business practices to be both illegal and immoral.

If you disagree with a law, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.

Granted.

And yes, monopolies are detrimental to capitalism, which relies on competition. MS knows full well that their monopolistic practices harm society and the economy, they just don't care because they get rich.

That's a rather serious accusation to make. Most people like this tend to believe the rationalizations that they make to the rest of society (which does not, of course, make those rationalizations any less wrong).

And Linux being free has nothing to do with it being a competitor. Most Distro's being used by businesses aren't free. Red Hat, and Suse are the most common in business, and neither is free for the Enterprise Editions.

[foot in mouth]Whoops. Didn't know that.[/foot in mouth]

In that case, then yes, Microsoft's licensing policy in this case is anti-competitive.
 

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I think something is becoming clear, which could possibly explain the incredible differences in opinion we've got here. The Windows proponents say that Windows is superior for many tasks in a large company with a huge budget, and possibly a large number of tech-phobic users. The Linux proponents say that Linux is superior for some low budget operations, and some tech-savvy individuals. There is no inherent conflict here, and I think it illustrates a fundamental truth: No system can ever hope to serve everyone's needs, because everyone is different.
 

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Several viruses avoid detection by not running as processes, the are merely threads. The can also run as interupts. Either way they don't show up in the task manager. I often have to deal with people who have set up there own small business network, and thes people get all kinds of funny things. Yes, that's largely due to bad practices (employees surfing porn, etc.), but it happens.

Doesn't have to. Restrict local admin rights and set up blocks and logs on the firewall. Then again, could always get mature users too. I don't have such locks (but I easily could), and I don't need them. My users are there to do their jobs.


No you don't have to "pay to play". You simply need to have a system that works, without making excuses for it's failures.

There's that mythical linux 286 that can stream full screen video at 1280x1024 res at 30fps and relay it with a USB web-cam again. I hear it even runs without the power cord.



I can retrain someone to use Linux (KDE) in half an hour. Training them to use OpenOffice instead of Word can take longer, but most people can pick it up on their own in a couple days. It's just not that different from a user's point of view.

Yeah.... this is why we can't get the sales staff to change their practices to take better advantage of the tools they already have, even though the "difference" would be minimal and yeild greater results.

If you're talking about a mom'n'pop with 5 users, that's one thing, but I'm talking about Inc.s in the high 6 figure to low 7 figure dollar a year range. Those are small to medium buisnesses.



The point was that they don't need more power, they already have enough. They shouldn't be forced to get more power to run software bloated with features they'll never use.

And the old super heavy luggables that masquaraded as laptops with tiny screens and few interfaces simply aren't going to cut it when the sales force demos to a client. Nor can you cram a DVI-out PCI-E video card into a P1.

Even when you CAN retro fit the upgrade, to spend the cost on the hardware, plus calculate my time for training, and their time for training, and factor in the lost productivity during that, as well as the overall slow-down from the change.... yeah, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to spend $1400 and get a stacked Core2Duo 3.16GHz with 3GB of RAM, moster hard drive AND an included 22" widescreen LCD, not to mention an OS and Office suite they already know.

See, when I first started as an on-staffer (rather than consultant), I was like you. I thought, why not go to pricewatch and get the cheapest everything, I can assemble it, and we can save a few hundred. That was without even having to train any of the other staff on anything new. But the simple act of going to multiple places to buy stuff made it too expensive (purhcasing and recieving dept's costs), not to mention ANY potential issue with ANYthing at all, took longer and more money to deal with. Going to an OEM was cheaper, even if it appeared more expensive.



I take it you have a tin foil hat, you are paranoid. There was nothing in my comment that even comes close to suggesting anything of the sort.

I understand these things. I am far from paranoid, but I AM a student of history, and I know what has happened, and also study a bit of psychology and anthropology as well. Humans are predictable, history follows cicular patterns, and wise sages have already warned us about all these dangers and nobody listens to them and we fall right down that well, time and time again. It's really not that hard to see if you choose to open your eyes and look.



I simply said that there is no good reason I shouldn't be able to find a file simply by knowing what folder it's in, and not need to know what actual drive it's on. That's pretty much what MS is trying to do with the "virtual folders" or whatever they called it that was supposed to be in Vista. The ability to mount a drive or partition anywhere in the file tree is handy, and I'm sure MS would be doing that if they weren't stuck trying to be backwards compatible with the older DOS based versions.

This is my point about that, a location is a location, virtual or not. I can move things around just as much as you can. Do the paths change for me? Sometimes, but it's never a problem either. Even in the rare case where an application expects something somewhere, I can edit that. You talk about not wanting to have to know a "location", a folder or directory IS a location, regardless of whehter it's virtual or tied to a disc, you still have to know it. So it's really no different, you just want to think that it is.

(and for network paths, it's always worked like that, I can move a share anywhere and users have no idea, it just works for them, they don't even know drive letters, they know share names)



Not all websites are critical. For critical websites, a small business should be using a third party hosting solution with 24/7 techs, not hosting it themselves. The one I was talking about is used by a local school for inter-office E-mail and scheduling AV resources. In the event the host computer goes down, it can be hosted on another machine in minutes. Plenty robust for theirneeds, and leaves more money for actually teaching kids. That IS what schools do. For most small non-profits, $2000 is a significant portion of the annual budget. It's money that isn't being spent accomplishing the goal.

If a web-site is worth having, it's worth running on a box that isn't USED as a desktop. Doesn't mean you have to dedicated it, double it up. Make it the file/print server, make it the DHCP or DNS box, make it the FTP server, etc. That's why that extranet/intranet/FTP server I mentioned has those things, they all are related in function, and run off of one app. None of it is exactly "mission critical" like the file or mail sever, but close enough that it's worth mirroring the drives and dedicating the box to server-type functions only.

We are a FOR proft, but we are a TINY company that was bought 2 years ago for 3 million dollars, and we are on the rocks right now with the economy like it is, because we are a niche market. We DO have large company problems though, like a world-wide customer base and manufacturing issues to deal with.

Speaking of which..... now that I think about the shop.... we have a Hendricks 5-axis router (cost well into the 6 figures), it's run by a desktop PC. For something that expensive, and that important, you'd think that the OEM would have used Linux on the white-box they supplied. They didn't. It was initially 95. Never had any problems with it. Now it's on 2K Pro, still no problems. Had it for years.



So shoplifting makes me a better shopper? You seem to have no respect for the law, perhaps that's why you are paranoid enough to see "big brother" where he doesn't exist. Are you perhaps an anarchist? Running a business illegaly is not running it well - just ask Arthur Anderson. Competion leads to innovation. By stifling the competition, MS has likely reduced the advancement of these "wonderfull toys".

I have no regard for "the law". I respect the Constitution. That is the ONLY valid law in this land. I obey other ones just because they either aren't technically illegal, or are just not worth the hassle of breaking, but just because a bill is passed does NOT make it good. Take a look into the process and riders and lobbying and back rubbing and deal brokering going on. It's a disgrace.

Not an Anarchist, that's not feasible. A Constitutionalist. The closest thing I've ever had to 'heros' are The Founders.

As for buisness, the name of the game is to out compete. Some can do it, some can't. However, after Jobs stole from Xerox and Bill decided to copy him, computers drove remarkably deeply into the potential market, expanding it to incredible levels, allowing costs to come down, which increased demand, which brought about more power, at yet cheaper costs, and allowed more features to be used, and the cycle continued. That's why a 468 used to cost $5000, and now I can buy the aforementioned Core2Duo system for $1400. THAT is because of M$ (who further spawned things when they helped IBM launch their PC, and what better idea than to guarentee sales for your own fledling company than by putting it in the contract? And when clone makers came out, they had to emulate, so you grab that too. It's smart buisness). Gripe about it all you want, Microsoft was pivotal in the creation of the PC market as we know it, and you have THEM to thank for your toys. And I think that pisses you off all the more. lol



I've moved the music collection four times as I added (larger) hardrives, but the pathname remains the same. Move your music files from C: to D:, fire up your player, load a playlist, and listen to the sweet sound of silence.

Well given that I go through Windows Explorer and double click on the mp3 which launches WinAMP (gasp!, shock! - yeah, I don't care for media player for anything but video, WinAMP is the only audio player I like), I can move that directory anywhere I like and it doesn't affect anything. ;)

I know some shortcuts will follow paths too, not sure if it would work for that, but I never use folder shortcuts anyway....



Anyone who can't afford that 3Ghz P4.

I'm sure you could get one for $50 these days.



For a large business, yes that matters. For a small one, with less than a dozen computers, it doesn't. Extra hardware is an extra expense. How does adding yet another heat source help climate control? For a small company, having one persons desktop running the database solves the "data wrangling" problem nicely. Back-ups are created automatically on a daily basis (two backup files on two different PC,s for redundancy) and written to tape weekly - all automatically. The only effort required is for someone to swap the tape once a week.

Large buisnesses are HP, M$, GM, etc. Small buisnesses are in the sub 100 desktop range.

It's not adding a heat source, it's putting htem all in one small-ish room and only having to climate control that (more or less than the rest of the building).

That one person's desktop running a DB is great until they kick the plug, or spill something on it, or break the optical drive (and have to shut it down) or get hit with malware, etc. Great for your 5 node network, not for buisnesses that I refer to. (which ARE small buisnesses)



Yes, I find MS's blatant disregard for the law to be offensive. I find Bernie Madoff's disregard for law offensive also. People with morals find that kind of dishonesty offensive. I guess you don't?

If you equate any old law with moral (BECAUSE it's a law), then you are scary.



BTW, MS's suggested retail price for Server 2005 was $3000, the $1500 you quote is a "wholesale" price that small businesses and NPO's don't get.

You can go to CDW too you know. They aren't exclusive. And there was no Server 05. 03 and 08, and the license we bought was for 08, but I'm currently installing 03 (64 bit), and next year when we upgrade the App (which we get free because we bought the Software Assurance, 2 years free upgrades), then I'll jump up to 08 (also for free, because I already have hte license). Oh and we only bought 1, no bulk purchases of any kind.


-----Post Added-----


The problem here is that the law itself may or may not be offensive. Bloodspray's point is that, in his opinion, antitrust laws (or at least some anti-trust laws, such as the ones that have been leveled against Microsoft), prevent the effective management of a business, so that to run your business "the way it's supposed to be run" you have to break the law. I happen to disagree with him, and think that the laws in question are perfectly just. But you can't just say "it's illegal and therefore wrong," because the law can, in some cases, be wrong.

Right.... sort of. Don't misinterpret. I'm not saying that monopolies are great or that anti-trust laws are always bad. I'm speaking philosophically. The idea of competition is to win. The idea of a buisness is to grow and make all the money you can for your employees and investors. If you do it well enough, people cry foul.

And also, there is nothing wrong with leveraging your product. I don't HAVE to sell you something, I didn't force you to not install the competitors products, I just chose not to sell to you if you did so. It's a subtle point, but an important one.


-----Post Added-----


If you disagree with a law, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.

Technically it's your duty as a citizen to not follow bad law. If charged, the jury has the right to refuse to convict (not the same as a hung jury). That is SUPPOSED to be the last line of defence in the check and balance system (if it gets through both houses, the president and the supreme court).

That isn't to say that it actually happens today, but it SHOULD. Trouble is, people think "just because you disagree with the law doesn't mean you can ignore it". And THAT mentality is why I'm convinced that the 18th Amendment wouldn't be repealed if it were passed today.


-----Post Added-----


I think something is becoming clear, which could possibly explain the incredible differences in opinion we've got here. The Windows proponents say that Windows is superior for many tasks in a large company with a huge budget, and possibly a large number of tech-phobic users. The Linux proponents say that Linux is superior for some low budget operations, and some tech-savvy individuals. There is no inherent conflict here, and I think it illustrates a fundamental truth: No system can ever hope to serve everyone's needs, because everyone is different.

Agree with the last statement. But I only point out the "superiority of Windows" (if you wish to use that phrasing, I wouldn't, but hey...) because of the other side saying it sucks for everything, should NEVER be touched, the people who use it are evil idiots, and then fixating on tiny non-issues as if they were real, or even spreading falsehoods around.

:cheers:
 

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...because of the other side saying it sucks for everything, should NEVER be touched, the people who use it are evil idiots...

Please quote me. If you can, I apologize in advance for this.


...and then fixating on tiny non-issues as if they were real

Back to everyone has different needs again. Perhaps they are non-issues for you. I'm not you. For me, every issue I cite is Very Real, and has either pleased me (made my life easier) or pissed me off (made my life harder) at some point, often repeatedly.

...or even spreading falsehoods around.

Again, I beg to be quoted, and apologize in advance for anything that is actually false that I've said. Edit: Also, please quote me for propaganda too, since you brought it up earlier.


:cheers:
 

willy88

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The real, obvious problem with Microsoft, is its relative lack of competition.

The only alternative that most people are aware of is Mac OS, but since only runs on Apple computers (which is quite silly, if you think about it, Apple would probably have much larger sales if it opened up Mac OS to non-Macs), it really isn't much for competition.

Linux, on the other hand, which is pretty much capable of running on any platform known to mankind, is mostly unknown to the average Joe.

Microsoft's only real competition as of now, is itself. Microsoft trys to get its customers to upgrade to its Latest & Greatest (TM) OS, while the customers want to stick with the older version.

From this lack of competition, and thus innovation, OSes (well, Windows, at least) have become fairly stagnant over the last decade or so, with a lack of actual new features.

:blahblah:
 

Linguofreak

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Right.... sort of. Don't misinterpret. I'm not saying that monopolies are great or that anti-trust laws are always bad. I'm speaking philosophically. The idea of competition is to win. The idea of a buisness is to grow and make all the money you can for your employees and investors. If you do it well enough, people cry foul.

Sometimes people cry foul because they're jealous. Sometimes they cry foul because you have committed a foul. Sometimes both. Just because people's motives for calling you on a foul *are or aren't* pure doesn't mean you *did or didn't* commit one.

There certainly are enough cases where people do cry foul on a corporation just because the corp has done well and they don't trust anybody who does well. But in this case, I happen to be crying foul because I think Microsoft actually commited a foul, whatever the motives of anyone else for crying foul on Microsoft.

And also, there is nothing wrong with leveraging your product. I don't HAVE to sell you something, I didn't force you to not install the competitors products, I just chose not to sell to you if you did so. It's a subtle point, but an important one.

That's anti-competitive, illegal, and wrong, although it's not exactly what Microsoft did (which was no less anti-competive, illegal, or wrong).

Microsoft allowed dealers to sell other OS's, but they wouldn't sell MS-DOS to them unless they sold it with every computer they sold, and then, if the customer wanted another OS, they had to buy that on top of MS-DOS. It guaranteed Microsoft a sale of MS-DOS for every sale of a competing OS, no matter how good or bad, popular or unpopular, the competing OS was. Of course, you have to have a certain market share to be able to pull such a stunt, but it doesn't even have to be a majority share (though it may be one). Just enough that any dealer who turns you down is doomed to fail for not selling your OS.

You can debate back and forth whether Microsoft's product was enough better than its competitors that it would have won anyways. The point is that Microsoft made shady business deals that arranged things so that it didn't matter which product was better, Microsoft would come out on top.

EDIT: Saying that Microsoft didn't "force" dealers into their licensing agreements misses the point. Blackmailers don't "force" people to give them money, either. They just choose to release embarrasing or incriminating information if they aren't given money.


-----Post Added-----


Technically it's your duty as a citizen to not follow bad law. If charged, the jury has the right to refuse to convict (not the same as a hung jury). That is SUPPOSED to be the last line of defence in the check and balance system (if it gets through both houses, the president and the supreme court).

That isn't to say that it actually happens today, but it SHOULD. Trouble is, people think "just because you disagree with the law doesn't mean you can ignore it". And THAT mentality is why I'm convinced that the 18th Amendment wouldn't be repealed if it were passed today.

Yes, but civil disobedience carries it's responsibilities too. You have to be willing to freely admit that what you've done is illegal, but you think the law is wrong, and you have to be willing to suffer whatever penalty the law demands in the interest of fighting that law. Somehow I get the idea that Bill Gates wouldn't be willing to go to jail to fight US Anti-trust laws. If you truly think such laws are wrong, and you would be willing to go to prison to fight them, more power to you.
 

Hielor

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Sometimes people cry foul because they're jealous. Sometimes they cry foul because you have committed a foul. Sometimes both. Just because people's motives for calling you on a foul *are or aren't* pure doesn't mean you *did or didn't* commit one.

There certainly are enough cases where people do cry foul on a corporation just because the corp has done well and they don't trust anybody who does well. But in this case, I happen to be crying foul because I think Microsoft actually commited a foul, whatever the motives of anyone else for crying foul on Microsoft.



That's anti-competitive, illegal, and wrong, although it's not exactly what Microsoft did (which was no less anti-competive, illegal, or wrong).

Microsoft allowed dealers to sell other OS's, but they wouldn't sell MS-DOS to them unless they sold it with every computer they sold, and then, if the customer wanted another OS, they had to buy that on top of MS-DOS. It guaranteed Microsoft a sale of MS-DOS for every sale of a competing OS, no matter how good or bad, popular or unpopular, the competing OS was. Of course, you have to have a certain market share to be able to pull such a stunt, but it doesn't even have to be a majority share (though it may be one). Just enough that any dealer who turns you down is doomed to fail for not selling your OS.

You can debate back and forth whether Microsoft's product was enough better than its competitors that it would have won anyways. The point is that Microsoft made shady business deals that arranged things so that it didn't matter which product was better, Microsoft would come out on top.

EDIT: Saying that Microsoft didn't "force" dealers into their licensing agreements misses the point. Blackmailers don't "force" people to give them money, either. They just choose to release embarrasing or incriminating information if they aren't given money.

I would argue that regardless of the illegality or immorality of Microsoft's practices, it was good for the computing community in the long run. If you have a dozen different computer manufacturers using a dozen different operating systems, none of which are compatible with each other (because each company uses a proprietary system which is a "trade secret" from all the others--they don't want the others stealing their income!) -- that's not a good place to be.

Let's imagine that world, for a moment.
Instead of several acres of software and hardware at the local Frys which I *know* will work on my pc regardless of who published the software and who made the computer (and a row or two of software/hardware for that *other* company's stuff, but that's not the point), we have a row here for OS1, another row for OS3, another for OS4, etc etc.

While I'm walking down the OS1 row to get to the row with the OS78 software/hardware that I need (because that's the only stuff that works with my OS78 machine), I spot a new game title for OS1 and think, "hey that looks cool." I look closer, but see that it's from a smaller company who only makes software for OS1 (which can run on OS27 using an emulation layer), but not OS78. Drat.

Standardization is good for the consumer. Especially Granma over there, who won't understand why the widget she just bought doesn't work in her OS27 machine. Whether that standardization comes from government regulation or a huge company doing everything, that doesn't matter.

Plus, if MS's corporate policies are so evil and they're only out to make a buck, why can you buy a new machine fitted with Windows for only $500 when an entry-level Mac is $1000 or more? If the whole "crushing the competition" thing were true, wouldn't you expect them to set whatever price they damn well pleased and then roll in bathtubs full of hundred dollar bills? *

* - I saw no such bathtubs during my internship. I'll keep an eye out and let you know, though.
 
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Linguofreak

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Standardization is good for the consumer. Especially Granma over there, who won't understand why the widget she just bought doesn't work in her OS27 machine. Whether that standardization comes from government regulation or a huge company doing everything, that doesn't matter.

Except that standardization doesn't *have* to come from anticompetitive business practices. As far as I understand, MS-DOS and DR-DOS were interchangeable. And even if standardization does come about through a monopoly, there are legal and illegal ways to gain a monopoly, and legal and illegal ways to use one.
 

cjp

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I would argue that regardless of the illegality or immorality of Microsoft's practices, it was good for the computing community in the long run. If you have a dozen different computer manufacturers using a dozen different operating systems, none of which are compatible with each other (because each company uses a proprietary system which is a "trade secret" from all the others--they don't want the others stealing their income!) -- that's not a good place to be.
Agreed, multiple proprietary standards are far worse than a single proprietary standard. But how about using an open standard?
In the PC hardware market, there is no problem in having lots of competing suppliers of video cards, sound cards, motherboards, harddisks, RAM memory & so on. They can work together because, on the hardware interface level, they are based on open standards.

Standardization is good for the consumer. But a standard where one side only has a single non-free implementation isn't a standard, it's a monopoly and a vendor lock-in. And monopolies are bad for the consumer.

Plus, if MS's corporate policies are so evil and they're only out to make a buck, why can you buy a new machine fitted with Windows for only $500 when an entry-level Mac is $1000 or more? If the whole "crushing the competition" thing were true, wouldn't you expect them to set whatever price they damn well pleased and then roll in bathtubs full of hundred dollar bills?
No, the economic theory of monopolies doesn't say a monopolist can just set an arbitrary prize to its product. When the price is too high, there are too many consumers who simply cannot afford it anymore. There is an optimum price for maximizing profit, and when going beyond that, profits will decrease. However, this price is higher than in a well-functioning free market with lots of competition. In fact, in an ideal free market equilibrium, profit would be zero.

Macs are expensive because they have high-end hardware. At least that's what I'm told by a mac user (who is not a mac zealot BTW). I see no reason not to believe him.

I'm still surprised by the high minimum specs needed for windows 7. I don't really care anymore (I just hope I won't need apps that require 7 or vista), but I'm just surprised. It's just like microsoft says to Linux: "okay, you can have all the computers with lower specs".

They're probably doing this because they expect the high-end market to be the most profitable, and for a commercial organization it doesn't make sense to invest in making their product suitable for non-profitable market segments.

So, the road is open for Linux on all embedded systems: routers, file/printer servers, video recorders, washing machines, car electronics & so on. And there is the growing market of cell phones being capable of desktop tasks, and those ultra-cheap laptops. If the hardware is already good enough to allow these specs for $100, then I wonder how cheap you can make a useful Linux desktop(*).

And then, there is still windows CE of course...

(*) E.g. Web browsing (including Javascript and Flash), email, and some simple m$-format compatible word processor + spreadsheet, pre-installed, so the user doesn't need geek skillz, and advertized like a cell phone, so the user doesn't expect windows.
 

movieman

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However, this price is higher than in a well-functioning free market with lots of competition. In fact, in an ideal free market equilibrium, profit would be zero.

Long-lasting monopolies generally occur in one of two circumstances:

1. Markets where costs reduce with increased size.
2. When they're granted by the government.

Microsoft is in the latter position, as they have a government-granted monopoly on Windows through copyright law. Without software copyright -- of which Bill Gates was one of the earliest proponents -- they would be a very different and much smaller company.

So, the road is open for Linux on all embedded systems: routers, file/printer servers, video recorders, washing machines, car electronics & so on.

I'm not sure why you say 'the road is open'; Linux is already one of the most popular embedded operating systems in the world, if not the most popular. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are already more embedded Linux systems than Windows systems in total.

And then, there is still windows CE of course...

When I was working in low-cost embedded systems a few years ago none of our customers wanted to run Windows on them. Some wanted a proprietary Unix-like OS, but most just used Linux because it was good and free; even an extra dollar per system adds up fast when you're selling them by the millions.
 
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