Project Roskosmos "тайга" Lunar Lander

[Urwumpe]

why not just use an N1 and do it in one?

Well, so if the N1 fails, we didn't at least waste the Protons? Regardless of the fact, that the N1 actually has less performance to the moon as this EOR strategy.

 

[Wishbone]

Grover has a point; unless we can do responsive launches with minimum preparation (BTW what is the current figure for Falcons?) recovering from a single failure is a very tricky proposition. This has wider applicability for interplanetary manned missions, where EOR is simply indispensable.

 

[N_Molson]

why not just use an N1 and do it in one?

Because :

a) I want this addon to stay credible, if not realistic, for the 2015-2020 period.
b) I like Thorton's addons.

And it's why I said we need 3 Proton pads + 1 R7 pad. Those launches have to be scheduled on a relatively short timeframe, less than 1 week. The main time constraints are 1- the cryogenic tugs, that don't like sunlight... 2- the lander fuel cell, that can last roughly 20 days.

what if the 4th one fails, youve wasted not only the lives of your astronauts, but FOUR WHOLE PROTON LAUNCHES!

No. The order and the timing of the launches is essential. The SoyuzTMA is launched from a R7, not a Proton, and if there is a catastrophic failure with the R7, that would be a severe blow for the whole international space programs anyway.

- The first launch (the lander) also carries a small satellite. If that one fail, 1 rocket is lost, the space tourist pays nothing.
- The second & third launch are the most sensible, since they carry only the cryo tugs. If one of the launches fails, the mission can be downgraded to a Lunar Orbital space tourism mission. Let's say that the tourist would pay 50% of the initial sum.
- The fourth launch is manned, and it could be downgraded to a 2-3 weeks duration LEO space tourism mission, if two of the others failed. The tourist would pay 25% of the initial sum.

So it's not do or die, there are several "partial failure" options.

This has wider applicability for interplanetary manned missions, where EOR is simply indispensable.

If successful, it is a great demonstration that EOR mission are possible, and paves the way for Mars exploration.

And I think this is going to be a great challenge for orbinauts !

 

[Wishbone]

You can have 4 pads for Protons, but the campaign will definitely require hiring extra workforce, which may be less proficient, and prone to make mistakes. I dunno if there are extra bottlenecks out there - heavy ground support/refuelling equipment etc.

 

[N_Molson]

Yes, but nothing is perfect ; the developpement a new man-rated HLV would be much more expensive on that timescale, anyway.

And the team that makes the critical checks the last day and controls the countdown can be the same. The launches would occur the same week, but not the same day. Yeah, this is going to be a lot of work, but that's a great accomplishment too.

 

[Urwumpe]

The refueling is automated, so this requires only little extra... producing and integrating the rocket is the tough one, as much as testing.

 

[Grover]

i still think a realistic/futuristic N1 would do the trick, NASA did it with one launch of a Saturn, im sure Roscosmos could do it as well, given a 40 year technology advantage

 

[N_Molson]

i still think a realistic/futuristic N1 would do the trick, NASA did it with one launch of a Saturn, im sure Roscosmos could do it as well, given a 40 year technology advantage

Not on the 2015-2020 period. The space race was comparable to a war effort, there's nothing like that here.

 

[Urwumpe]

i still think a realistic/futuristic N1 would do the trick, NASA did it with one launch of a Saturn, im sure Roscosmos could do it as well, given a 40 year technology advantage

That was Energia, the proper replacement with better technology...it even has a 30 ton better performance.

 

[N_Molson]

The "default" satellite will be something like that :

But of course, Thorton's ProtonLV allows you to set your own payload.

 

[N_Molson]

I read some documents about the Orlan-M suits. They don't "refill" the suits between EVAs, they dry them and replace the various tanks, filters and batteries. Much more simple ! So for a short-duration expedition on the Moon, there is no need (nor time) to refill O2 bottles ; we just have to bring spares.

This was a very helpful resource : http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/orlanprep.html

 

[N_Molson]

Currently searching a way to "individualize" each crewmember, especially during EVAs, really difficult to code...

Trying everything : strcmp, memcmp, strcpy, memcpy, static variables... not a lot of sucess...

 

[nygiantsrob]

...Nice Work Man ...I'm Really Enjoying Your Developer Diary ...Very Interesting Stuff ...

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Tapatalk

 

[N_Molson]

Successful Soyuz Lunar Pass !

I just successfully flown a Soyuz Lunar Pass ! Thanks to new spacetug hardware from Thorton, the Block DM-L :thumbup:

Mission plan was :

1) ProtonM / BlockDM-L (21 tons) launch.
2) BlockDM-L was parked on a 150x150 km orbit.
3) Soyuz FG/TMA launch, roughly 1 day later.
4) Orbit sync and docking, lasted 1 other day. The rendez-vous date is critical to get a good launch window for the Moon. Given the very low 150x150 orbit, it's not possible to wait 1 week there... That was the most difficult part to set up.
5) TLI, free-return "8-shaped" trajectory.
6) Some MCC to adjust the Lunar Pass altitude to 200 km.
7) Beautiful lunar flyby, great views from the illuminated far side !
8) On the return leg, another MCC to make sure I wasn't missing the Earth.
9) Final corrections to fine tune the reentry angle.
10) Supposed successful reentry & landing, since the standard TMA burns It would be even better to be able to aim for the Soyuz Landing Site, but that requires very complex calculations, I think (since the amount of Dv is very limited, you can only play with trajectories and launches dates).

A great step forward, now I'm sure we can get to the Moon with a joint-launch plan. :sweet:

Next step : lunar orbital with the cryogenic KVTK tug.

---------- Post added 06-10-11 at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was 06-09-11 at 11:06 PM ----------

Ok, so I'm in Lunar Orbit (300 x 500 km) !

Now about the return... Well, I will try to send a BlockDM-L without payload ; hopefully that should be enough to bring the Soyuz on the way back. I waited to be sure the KVTK hadn't enough Dv to bring the Soyuz back to Earth, but now it's proven, that launch should be the first as shown below.

So, for the Lunar Orbit mission 3 launches are needed, and they should be done in the following order :

1) ProtonM / BlockDM-L

MET + 0

Objective : send the BlockDM-L in Lunar Orbit, waiting for the Soyuz. If successful, proceed with the following launches.

2) ProtonM / KVTK

MET + 80 hours, as soon as the BlockDM-L is orbiting the Moon and reporting nominal telemetry.

We bring in the heavy artillery ; the KVTK provides us enough DeltaV for TLI and LOI.

3) Soyuz FG / TMA

MET + 103 hours to catch the KVTK orbital plane.

And of course, we need the R-7 to send the Soyuz in LEO.

4) Soyuz / KVTK rendez-vous

MET + 127 hours, but that may vary, given the relative positions of the two spacecraft at launch.

The Soyuz docks the KVTK.

5) TLI

MET + 128 hours

Second KVTK burn (the first was used for orbital insertion).

6) LOI

MET + 208 hours.

Third KVTK burn. If the rendez-vous went well, the Soyuz had enough propellant to handle the MCC.



Now I have to bring that Soyuz back home, the tricky part will be to send the DM-L to Lunar Orbit so that the Rinc with the Soyuz is within limits...

 

[Thorton]

Great! I was almost sure that KVTK would be enough for Soyuz LOI, but what about Lander?
Also, considering that DM is cryogenic stage, it cant be kept in lunar orbit for the extended period of time, maybe in this case we could use something like double Fregat (one normal and one with docking port), which could be launched by Soyuz U.

 

[N_Molson]

Also, considering that DM is cryogenic stage, it cant be kept in lunar orbit for the extended period of time, maybe in this case we could use something like double Fregat (one normal and one with docking port), which could be launched by Soyuz U.

I greatly approve this idea, because I just tried to send the DM-L ... No Dv problems, but with only 4 restarts, you have very limited options for MCC...

I ended up with a Rinc of 270° ! :rofl: (the two spacecraft were orbiting in opposite directions, with a good plane difference of 45°) :facepalm:

For the lander, I did the equation from your KVTK figures and found 3939 m/s of Dv... I fear we will miss 300-400 m/s, but I'm going to try it in Orbiter, who knows... One of the problems is that the KVTK has to perform an insertion burn at launch that costs nearly 1 ton of fuel already... (I managed to tune the guidance file so that the DM-L can be sent on a 150x150 km orbit without insertion burn).

Now for the double-Fregat configuration, I have interesting figures :

Dv first fregat = 1682.7 m/s

Dv second fregat = 5716 m/s

Total Dv for the two Fregats = 7398.7 m/s

This seems excellent, but we have to consider that :

1) I think that most of the first Fregat fuel will be spent by the insertion burn (except if we launch it from Kourou which has now a Soyuz launchpad, that would be an interesting possiblity, and it could avoid rocket trafic jams in Baikonur).

2) The Dv of a full Fregat docked to a SoyuzTMA (with let's say 300 kgs of propellant left) is :

Dv = 3207.9 * ln (6535+6620/1100+6620)
Dv = 1709.7 m/s

I'll try this, but I'm not sure it will be enough from Baikonur.

Maybe we could consider using a ProtonM/BreezeM ?

 

[Jarvitä]

The mission architecture is really complex and probably unworkable (you're basically launching a year's worth of rockets within a month and managing three separate deep-space spacecraft concurrently) with current launchers. This calls for a heavier rocket that can do the entire lunar mission with max. two launches.

Energia?

 

[N_Molson]

Well, let us try

An Energia resurrection seems very very unlikely to me (our lunar landing should take place between 2015 and 2020).

If we had to try heavier launchers, I would think to future projects like the Angara A5-A7 series...

But I'm still sure that this mission is possible with the ProtonM, and anyway even if the launch schedule is a little crazy it's a great challenge.

(and no, I don't plan to use nuclear-powered stuff to go to the Moon )

Edit : interesting stuff here, I hope I will see those rockets fly one day. And the KVTK seem to have an important role.

 

[Tacolev]

If use of stock TMA is out of the question anyway because of heat shielding perhaps zond-proven mass savings of deleting BO? Replace with docking collar and telemetry and maybe even replace mass with integrated fregat-stage. One would need some strange-looking fairings on the R-7 for the latter case. Not to mention nigh-unbearable crew conditions.

While use of energia is unlikely, Kulch's energia add-on is a reality. As is sputnik's N1F. While these are not fitting in vein of minimal and realistic deviations from reality (not to mention messiness of ucargo-deck style payload handling and general catastrophe of N1 first stage), they could easily kitbash a monolithic moon mission using real(ish) russian hardware.

Failing all this, the UR-700 technically counts as a derivative of the proton :lol:

 

[Thorton]

Well, we are not searching for easiest way to launch lunar mission, but for the realistic one, based on existing technology. And at this point i believe that production of KVTK is more probable than recovery of the Energia or N1.

1) I think that most of the first Fregat fuel will be spent by the insertion burn (except if we launch it from Kourou which has now a Soyuz launchpad, that would be an interesting possiblity, and it could avoid rocket trafic jams in Baikonur).

It is an interesting idea, but we still dont have Kouru launchpad for Soyuz.