Meshing Question Shiny Reflection of mesh

[Trekkie]

Are you sure you have meshed the outsides of your surfaces and not the insides? Try flipping your triangles around by inverting the node order (flip two of the vertex indices for each of the triangles) and see if that helps. I'm sure your meshing tool should have a function for that.

When im home from work i will give that a try! thanks Sir!

---------- Post added at 06:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 AM ----------

As SolarLiner said try to recalculate normals. You just have to do it for every single mesh group. Select group "TAB" to go to edit mode then "ctrl + N" to recalculate then repeat the process. Btw that model is hi-poly it's almost 850k triangles, that's good for offline rendering or baking AO's or normal maps but is an overkill for a ingame mesh.

ive managed to obtain the Same Mesh but it only has 1 group which is the whole mesh... and when i do that with the Recalculate Normals on that one single group it still gives me the shadow on the sunny side.. (im really new to meshing and im learning by every step i take so forgive me for not understanding some things you guys are telling me to do!)

---------- Post added at 07:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 AM ----------

In case you didn't know, for 'recalculate normals' and 'flip normals' to work, you have to be in edit mode and have some/all faces selected.

you can only see Recalculate Normals in edit mode right? because i found it, also when i flip my normals it looks like i can see through half of my ship so flipping wont make things better i guess

 

[llarian]

i cant find that recalculate normals... where is it xD

If you are in Object mode, switch to Edit Mode.

Left side tools panel, Shading/UVs tab (third one down), Shading, Normals, selections available are Recalculate or Flip Normals. Choose Recalculate.

Cheers

 

[SolarLiner]

Are you sure you have meshed the outsides of your surfaces and not the insides? Try flipping your triangles around by inverting the node order (flip two of the vertex indices for each of the triangles) and see if that helps. I'm sure your meshing tool should have a function for that.

This is what flipping normals does on Blender: the exporter exports the mesh with a reversed vertex order if the normal is 'inward' instead of 'outward', essentially flipping the normal.

also when i flip my normals it looks like i can see through half of my ship so flipping wont make things better i guess

Looks like it's then not a problem with normals, after all :lol:
What we need are screenshots at this point. Maybe it'll help understand better what's happening.

 

[Trekkie]

This is what flipping normals does on Blender: the exporter exports the mesh with a reversed vertex order if the normal is 'inward' instead of 'outward', essentially flipping the normal.



Looks like it's then not a problem with normals, after all :lol:
What we need are screenshots at this point. Maybe it'll help understand better what's happening.

from what u need a picture ? ill post it for ya

 

[SolarLiner]

The weird shading, and how il looks after you flip the normals.

 

[Trekkie]

The weird shading, and how il looks after you flip the normals.

Picture of the side that has light with in de distance the sun on the OTHER side

Dark side where the sun shines on

Picture with Normals flipped, does show sun on good side right now what it did not do before the only problem is that its missing mesh parts in it.. which is weird since its just 1 Part (when flipped back it returns back to normal..)

 

[martins]

This is what flipping normals does on Blender: the exporter exports the mesh with a reversed vertex order if the normal is 'inward' instead of 'outward', essentially flipping the normal.

Does Blender allow you to flip the node order or the normal direction separately, or are they always flipped simultaneously?

What happens if the normal direction is wrong for whatever reason, but the node order agrees with Orbiter's convention (counterclockwise, if I remember correctly)? If they are always flipped together, you are left with with the choice of inverted normals and visible mesh, or proper normals and invisible mesh.

Note that DirectX allows to select the visible surface (clockwise or counterclockwise), but except for very few exceptions (cloud layers) Orbiter by convention always displays the counterclockwise surface. (unless it was the clockwise surface, in which case please read this post through a mirror )

 

[Trekkie]

Does Blender allow you to flip the node order or the normal direction separately, or are they always flipped simultaneously?

What happens if the normal direction is wrong for whatever reason, but the node order agrees with Orbiter's convention (counterclockwise, if I remember correctly)? If they are always flipped together, you are left with with the choice of inverted normals and visible mesh, or proper normals and invisible mesh.

Note that DirectX allows to select the visible surface (clockwise or counterclockwise), but except for very few exceptions (cloud layers) Orbiter by convention always displays the counterclockwise surface. (unless it was the clockwise surface, in which case please read this post through a mirror )

so if i read this right with my 17 year old brain there is no way of fixing this?

 

[martins]

so if i read this right with my 17 year old brain there is no way of fixing this?

There's always a way of fixing things, even if it comes down to writing a script to flip vertices in post-processing. But I suspect there will be easier ways to do this. Let's wait what the Blender experts around here come up with ... :thumbup:

 

[Trekkie]

I am really wondering if it has something to do with blender, maybe another tool works or all they all based on the same? like is Wings3D more easy to use then blender or is it way different or difficult?

 

[Urwumpe]

I am really wondering if it has something to do with blender, maybe another tool works or all they all based on the same? like is Wings3D more easy to use then blender or is it way different or difficult?

Lets put it like that: Blender is a really powerful and user-friendly modelling tool. But it chooses its friends carefully.

You will hardly find a tool with more free tutorials to help you. So if you have a chance to begin learning with Blender. It takes sometime to get your head wrapped around the basics, but its sure worth it.

Also, seriously: Do you think you will have a better time learning a new technology at 71? Feel lucky that you are 17. Your brain is still a mostly empty vessel waiting to be filled. You don't have any previous knowledge and obsolete concepts making it hard for you to learn something new.

 

[Trekkie]

Lets put it like that: Blender is a really powerful and user-friendly modelling tool. But it chooses its friends carefully.

You will hardly find a tool with more free tutorials to help you. So if you have a chance to begin learning with Blender. It takes sometime to get your head wrapped around the basics, but its sure worth it.

Also, seriously: Do you think you will have a better time learning a new technology at 71? Feel lucky that you are 17. Your brain is still a mostly empty vessel waiting to be filled. You don't have any previous knowledge and obsolete concepts making it hard for you to learn something new.

Thats why im confident it will work i was just wondering if an other tool like wings3D is also worth a try, i know there are many tutorials for Blender out there and i will for sure use them!

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

hi all!

i have a question..
at the bottom of this Orbiter.log file there is this saying missing texture Tendaras and about that Mesh is still referenced? could someone explain to me what that means?

greetz Trekkie

 

[Urwumpe]

i have a question..
at the bottom of this Orbiter.log file there is this saying missing texture Tendaras and about that Mesh is still referenced? could someone explain to me what that means?

You have two separate problems there:

1. Missing texture: Your mesh refers to a texture, that is not existing in one of Orbiters texture folders (textures and textures2) or not in DDS format. You need to convert it to DDS yourself, should it not be in that format.
2. "Missing .msh" a common problem with some add-ons, that contain an empty mesh line, like spacecraft3.dll, not automatically related to your add-on.

 

[Trekkie]

You have two separate problems there:

1. Missing texture: Your mesh refers to a texture, that is not existing in one of Orbiters texture folders (textures and textures2) or not in DDS format. You need to convert it to DDS yourself, should it not be in that format.
2. "Missing .msh" a common problem with some add-ons, that contain an empty mesh line, like spacecraft3.dll, not automatically related to your add-on.

i got it fixed! thanks for helping

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

hi i just found a way of applying .TGA textures onto the mesh, but now i have a problem.. when i apply a .TGA to a Meshgroup it apply's to them all.. i tried to create a seperate group or renaming but it wont help is there a way to work around this and giving every meshgroup a different Texture?

Greetz Trekkie

 

[Hielor]

Thats why im confident it will work i was just wondering if an other tool like wings3D is also worth a try, i know there are many tutorials for Blender out there and i will for sure use them!

I'm kind of biased, here, but I'd definitely recommend trying out Wings3D as well. You might like it more, you might like it less, but there's no harm in trying.

 

[Trekkie]

I'm kind of biased, here, but I'd definitely recommend trying out Wings3D as well. You might like it more, you might like it less, but there's no harm in trying.

I have Wings3D im just still looking how everything works, it is really nice you can select every part of a ship on the screen which blender does not let you so so easily, Cizurator also recommended me Wings3D so this weekend il start and dig into it!

---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

Does shadowing of Meshes also have to do with Normals? or is that the type of material?

 

[Urwumpe]

Does shadowing of Meshes also have to do with Normals? or is that the type of material?

The normals are on the corners of a triangle in the mesh and describe how the surface of the triangle is curved in the corners, essentially describing curved triangles (think of a sail of a yacht) there. A normal is always perpendicular to the surface it describes.

In effect it appears like this:

Normals are part of the geometry of the mesh, but have effect on the shading, since the shading is often calculated by using the normals. You can also have features like normal mapping (for example in the DX9 client), which allow you to not just define the normals of each corner of a triangle, but also the normals for each texture pixel.

 

[Loru]

[bit offtopic] I think we need 3d basics for orbiter tutorial - I wish I had more spare time[/bit offtopic]

Does shadowing of Meshes also have to do with Normals? or is that the type of material?

I think you're confusing applying shadows with "shading". From the last screenshot I see that entire mesh looks like it's emmiting light (It's glowing). I don't know Blender (I'm 3dsmax guy) but basically material consists of few parameters and one or few textures.

In essence any material describes how object reflects light. Let's break it down:

Material properties (From orbiter's 3dmodel.pdf):

Each material property specification consists of 4 RGBA quadruplets, where R, G and B define the red, green and blue components, and A is the opacity. RGB values should be between 0 and 1, but can be > 1 for special effects. A must be between 0 (fully transparent) and 1 (fully opaque).

· The first line specifies the diffuse material colour. This is the colour that is diffusely (in all directions) reflected from an illuminated surface.
· The second line specifies the ambient material colour. This is the colour of an unlit surface.
· The third line specifies the specular colour. This is the colour of light reflected by a polished surface into a narrow beam. The power entry specifies the width of the cone into which specular light is reflected. Higher values mean a narrower cone, i.e. sharper reflections. Typical values are around 10. If omitted, the default value for power is 0.
· The fourth line specifies the emissive colour. This is the colour of light emitted by a
glowing surface.

In addition you can add a texture to the mesh (in default orbiter client this map will replace diffuce parameter)

That corresponds directly to your material editor in blender or any other software. In my example diffuse is blue, to give it's primary color, ambient is black so you can see darkenings not directly lit (shading) and specular is white (here irrevelant because it's not shiny but matte object)

For any textured object it's best to apply white or grey as diffuse color and then put the texture on.

.

 

[Trekkie]

The normals are on the corners of a triangle in the mesh and describe how the surface of the triangle is curved in the corners, essentially describing curved triangles (think of a sail of a yacht) there. A normal is always perpendicular to the surface it describes.

In effect it appears like this:

Normals are part of the geometry of the mesh, but have effect on the shading, since the shading is often calculated by using the normals. You can also have features like normal mapping (for example in the DX9 client), which allow you to not just define the normals of each corner of a triangle, but also the normals for each texture pixel.

[bit offtopic] I think we need 3d basics for orbiter tutorial - I wish I had more spare time[/bit offtopic]



I think you're confusing applying shadows with "shading". From the last screenshot I see that entire mesh looks like it's emmiting light (It's glowing). I don't know Blender (I'm 3dsmax guy) but basically material consists of few parameters and one or few textures.

In essence any material describes how object reflects light. Let's break it down:

Material properties (From orbiter's 3dmodel.pdf):



In addition you can add a texture to the mesh (in default orbiter client this map will replace diffuce parameter)

That corresponds directly to your material editor in blender or any other software. In my example diffuse is blue, to give it's primary color, ambient is black so you can see darkenings not directly lit (shading) and specular is white (here irrevelant because it's not shiny but matte object)

For any textured object it's best to apply white or grey as diffuse color and then put the texture on.

.

Thanks that you guys try and help me out (i can imagine it can be annoying if someone asks alot of questions) i really appreciate it

To loru:
i have Blender 3ds Max (last edition) and Wings3D and im trying to get to learn all 3 of them, i know most of blender, and i try and use only .obj meshes (i dont know if thats effecting anything of the mesh or should i just use .3ds instead?)

anyways i really appreciate you guys taking time to learn me something

 

[Loru]

I cannot advocate using any of them. Personally I like 3dsmax but that's because I started using old do 3dstudio (mex is successor of that). I know blender is powerfull but I cannot grasp it's UI. Also there is script for 3ds max that directly exports to orbiter's msh format. With proper arangement (3dsmax using orbiter texture paths) you can import / export meshes pretty efficently. Max however is not trivial to use (UVW mapping is major PITA) and you have to adjust materials manually in msh file after export.

I rarely use .obj format as my workflow is just max file for modelling and direct export to orbiter. .3ds files have some limitations (65k polys per meshgroup) but they're pretty consistent. You may loose any UVW mapping info if your object does not have texture applied.

Before grabbing models from the internet and putting them into orbiter I'd recomend creating some simple objects (cubes, spheres etc) and learn how materials are rendered in both your modeller and orbiter. That will give you basics for your material workflow.

And since Max is free for students (you have to have .edu e-mail), I might do basic tutorial for Max/GMAX and how to export it properly to orbiter. I'd need like 2 days for it (so no expect it soon).