Question Shuttle to the Moon

[FADEC]

I have a question for Space Shuttle experts here

Would it be possible to bring the Shuttle to the Moon and back by using the payload bay for fuel and life support?

 

[Fabri91]

It was actually investigated. Turns out that to enable such a flight the Shuttle and its ET would have to be refueled in LEO, which would take about 13 to 15 lanunches of the Shuttle-C cargo carrier. Possible, yes, but quite impractical. Would be something to try in Orbiter though.

 

[Spacethingy]

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=21084

Don't worry, the sarcasm dies down after around post 5...:lol:

Seriously though, interesting idea.

Edit: Whoops, linked to this thread instead. That was weird...

 

[FADEC]

It was actually investigated. Turns out that to enable such a flight the Shuttle and its ET would have to be refueled in LEO, which would take about 13 to 15 lanunches of the Shuttle-C cargo carrier.

Are there documents or any sources available?

What about flying to the Moon by using the payload bay only (for fuel and life support)?

 

[Axertan]

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=21793

Don't worry, the sarcasm dies down after around post 5...:lol:

Seriously though, interesting idea.

I take it that you posted link to this thread on purpose :lol:

Aaaaaanyway, I doubt that it would be practical at all to bring such a huge beast without any hover landing capability to the moon. But, surely, it would be a kickoff!
For orbiter style - How about some Velcro Rockets contraption?

 

[HAL9001]

should be possible - if you let the cargo-door open and there's something stand out of it, than you have space enpugh, but t would still be hard...

 

[Fabri91]

Yes. I've found a .pdf here some months ago, let me see if I can dig it up.

I doubt that the payload bay could be used to haul such a large amount of fuel since the Shuttle would have to perform TLI, LOI, TEI and EOI all with its engines. I don't remember the exact figures, but the delta-v needed probably would not have been achievable. Needless to say, if the payload bay was used up like that, there wouldn't be any space left for actual payload.

EDIT: found! Had to put it in a .zip since it was a hair over the limit for .pdf files.

 

[N_Molson]

I remember that this topic has been discussed a long long time ago, maybe on the M6 forum. The solution proposed was to use NERVA-like engines stored in the payload bay. But I don't remember the details.

 

[FADEC]

Thanks a lot for the document Fabri91!

But, let's assume we want to use the OMS engines to get to the Moon an back. For example, we raise the apogee of our earth orbit many times. Would it be possible to get to the Moon that way, and back?

 

[Fabri91]

You're welcome

I think it still wouldn't be possible. A normal Orbiter should have a dV of about 300m/s using the OMS engines, but a much greater change of velocity is needed, about 3500m/s.
Now some wild guessing: to make this possible the tanks for the OMS would need to be 12 times bigger, BUT this is not accounting the increased mass of the propellant, the increased mass due to supplies, the need to do a lunar orbit insertion, the need to inject back to Earth, and finally the need to fire one more time to get into a LEO, the Orbiter not being designed for high orbit direct reentries. I'm afraid it would be even more impractical since if I remember correctly hypegolic engines like the OMS are less efficient than for example LH2/LOX engines of comparable thrust. But don't quote me on this last point...

 

[iamwearingpants]

Why not just get the shuttle in orbit around the moon, and hold somekind of ship in the cargo bay that will land. When the mission is done, it'll go up back into the shuttle, and the shuttle will somehow return to Earth.

Maybe you could stick a booster stage or two on the shuttle, and that will get it to the moon and back.

Definitely not practical, but anything is possible in Orbiter.

 

[N_Molson]

Kulch's space tanker seems to be the best bet then...

 

[zerofay32]

Once you get to orbit, save and exit the scenario then load the saved file with unlimited fuel selected. :lol:

 

[Fabri91]

After exams when I'll have some time again I'll definetly try to do a circumlunar mission with the Shuttle Fleet and Kulch's space tankers. Will be interesting to see how many launches are required to refuel the ET.

 

[FADEC]

Okay, I think it is time to be more precise now. But first of all, thank you for all the answers so far, and it would be great to see how it works in orbiter

Well, the reason I have posted my question here is that I know somebody from another community (I won't provide the name and links and it wouldn't be okay anyway I think) who claime that he has got an internal/confidential NASA paper which "proofs" that the Space Shuttle can "theoretically" fly to the Moon and return to Earth safely, solely based on using the OMS engines. But I don't believe just any claim without any evidence and I doubt such a paper does exist. And if it does exist: why would it be confidential? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I think it is inappropriate to claim something and then say: sorry, I can't back it up because it is top secret, allegedly.

I have asked here because I think this community has got some smart people who, amongst other things, really have a clue about the Space Shuttles mechanics.

What do you think about all this?

EDIT: the claim is based on using the OMS, provided that the payload bay is used for OMS fuel and life support.

 

[Rtyh-12]

If you've got a fuel tank big enough, then sure, you can fly to the Moon with the OMS engines...

 

[Fabri91]

But can you also return?

Problem is that the necessary change of velocity is about 7km/s (three and a half to "escape" from LEO to the Moon, and again a similar amount to circularise orbit upon return to reduce strain on the heat shield, which just can't support direct reentries).

And that's without even bothering to put ourself in orbit around the Moon.

My guess is that the document this person is referring to is the one I posted here and that he confuses the main engines with the OMS pods.

 

[FADEC]

But can you also return?

Problem is that the necessary change of velocity is about 7km/s (three and a half to "escape" from LEO to the Moon, and again a similar amount to circularise orbit upon return to reduce strain on the heat shield, which just can't support direct reentries).

And that's without even bothering to put ourself in orbit around the Moon.

I'm not an expert on this but I guess by using the OMS for lunar orbit insertion you end up with a nice lunar flyby and maybe with a trip into deep space :lol:

My guess is that the document this person is referring to is the one I posted here and that he confuses the main engines with the OMS pods.

That was also my guess. But the person claims that he has got a different paper which is not online and confidential.

Why should NASA analyze the possibility to go to the Moon solely based on using the OMS? And why should such an analysis be confidential? It does not make sense to me. It is not good to claim something which people can not check.

 

[Fabri91]

Indeed. Unless said person would be willing to share the would-be document with you I don't think it makes much sense to pursue the matter...but it'll be a great orbiter flight for sure!

 

[Ghostrider]

Why use the OMS? Carry a strap-on engine and use that. Bring it and a LM up in the cargo bay. It's there for something.