Discussion Solving the problems of space combat in Orbiter

Kurt M. Weber

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It'd be an interesting exercise to use Orbiter to attempt to predict how armed combat in outer space is likely to evolve. What technological hurdles would need to be cleared before Orbiter can be used to effectively simulate space combat, and then what form is that combat likely to take?
 

Urwumpe

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A useful universal damage model would be a good start.
 

Andy44

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A fancy damage model is not necessary for simple wargaming. A simple alert of hit or miss would do for starters, it all depends on how detailed you want to model things.

The subject of what war in space would be like has come up before, and resulted in pages of comments. Greg Burch (who hasn't been seen lately) is convinced that war in space will entail lots of artificial intelligence and that humans will play little role aside from pushing an occasional button.

I think that's getting ahead of ourselves. "War in space" is too broad a term. You need to be more specific. What it would like in the distant future is open to speculation, but the fact is that war in space is possible right this minute, and some would argue that limited acts of aggression may have already occurred.

I recently read Space Warfare by John Klein, which is a good primer on theory, and I recommend it.

Many people start off thinking of space warfare by dreaming of X-Wings and thinking about ASAT missiles, but before you bother thinking of weapon systems you should think about the theory and objectives of space; what it is you're trying to defend or attack, what about space is worth fighting for.

According to Klein, space is a place through which things travel, tangible objects like warheads and space vehicles, and, even more important, intengible things like radio signals. So he chose maritime theory as his model for space war theory (NOT maritime strategy, which only applies to a surface ocean). Space has lines of communication which would be contested in hostilities.

In the present day, these lines of comm. only extend out to around GEO, so we can narrow our focus. If the Moon or other bodies become strategically important someday, then the lines of comm. will extend accordingly.

So how does one attack lines of communication? Physical attacks are the most dramatic, but there are alternatives such as jamming and so forth.
 

Ark

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We have a hard enough time staying alive in space, let alone trying to kill each other. I don't think we'll see anything other than ground-to-stationary-orbiting-object missiles for quite a while.

That said, it would be cool to see some kind of MFD that creates a missile that constantly thrusts at the target, has slow turning ability, only fires within 10 or 20 kms, runs out of fuel and disappears after a set time, spawns an explosion mesh or something when the range reaches close to 0, spins the target on "impact", and kills any UMMU crew. From the other mods I've played around with it seems like it would be doable, and limited missile maneuverability means it could be evaded by thrusting hard enough perpendicular to the missile's path. Yeah, it's not a new X-Wing simulator, but it would be fun to play around with and reasonably real-world.
 

Linguofreak

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I read up until the point where it started talking about stealth. There is no stealth in space. (Well, maybe there is if you're some race of alien beings with 3.5 k body temperatures and billion year lifespans fighting out in interstellar space, but for human beings fighting in solar systems with habitable planets, no).

The cosmic background radiation has a temperature of about 3K. Humans have a body temperature of about 310 K. So any humanly habitable spacecraft has to have a temperature of about 100 times the background temperature of space. So just your heat signature from having live humans on board will make stand out like a sore thumb for quite a distance.

Furthermore, your spacecraft will be illuminated by sunlight. Something has to happen to this sunlight when it hits your spacecraft. Generally, it will either be A: Reflected, or, B: Absorbed. If it is reflected, that means you are painted nice and white, and will show up quite nicely in a telescope from a fair distance away. If it is absorbed, it will heat you up until you start emitting enough infrared (or visible light, if you're close enough to the local star to start glowing red or even white hot) to get rid of all the energy you're absorbing. This infrared radiation can also be detected from far away.

There's also the problem of your engine. In most cases, your exhaust temperature will be, at the very least, thousands of degrees, and your drive power, for any combat vessel, is likely to be on the order of a few gigawatts at least. Maneuvers that will get you anywhere quickly will be seen by virtue of standing out like a sore thumb. Maneuvers that get you anywhere slowly will be seen by virtue of giving your opponent lots of time to look. Maneuvers that don't get you anywhere at all are irrelevant.

I've heard it described as being like looking for penguins at night. It sounds like it should be hard to find them, right? But the penguins have flame throwers. You're looking for them with night vision goggles. On a flat, empty ice sheet in Antarctica. On a cold night. The penguins are warm enough compared to their surroundings, and have few enough places to hide, that they'll stand out anyways. The flamethrowers make finding them a pushover.

Same thing with space. Sure, it's big. But it's big and empty. And cold. And the things you're looking for are hot.

There may be a few ways to surpise your opponent every once in a while, but all the ones I can think of have problems, such as generally requiring several years/decades of being very, very careful to set up, by which time your mission may no longer be needed.
 

Hielor

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Linguofreak

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Drake

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Well, you could have a heat accumulator and stealth that way. Refrigerate the outer skin to ambient while heating up something with a high specific heat inside, something as simple as water. You would eventually have to vent it or extend radiators to cool it off again. You could also extend radiators in the opposite direction if you happened to know where the bad guys were. You would also need a radar absorptive coating - you would show up fine on Doppler otherwise.

Similarly, you could mix a coolant into the exhaust plume to lower or obscure that, until you ran out of it. I think modern fighter jets do something similar.

So you could stealth for a while if you were set up to do so.

You can download something in the meantime for free here:

http://www.x-plane.com/SpaceCombat.html

If I recall correctly, there is no gravity effect, but you will learn just how hard it is to use intuition even in the absence of that! You have a laser and an opponent with subsystems modeled.

A game that did an OK job of trying to use real physics was Independence War (though there was some big handwaving there in terms of what exactly you were using for reaction mass etc...)
 

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To solve the problems of combat you actually need slightly more than just "hit-miss" detection and an ASAT model (respect, urwumpe). That is:

1.Stable multiplayer engine.
2.As was already said, a damage, temperature and energy production (for energy weapons and sensors etc.) model.
3.Reliable collision detection.
4.Scientifically grounded physical models of weaponry.
5.Surface bases/ships/... that can provide fire support
6.Sensors/countermeasures/detectibility models
7.Set of standarts for spacecraft characteristics balance, that will limit and define the "development" of new weapons. E.g. one pound of engine weight of a given technology level and propulsion principle may produce X newtons of thrust; one pound of weapon weight may give out Y joules of kinetic/light/... energy per second.

Otherwise there's no even sense of speaking about combat, IMHO.

P.S.Mods, please delete my previous post.
 

Hielor

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1.Stable multiplayer engine.
Because there are no single player games, right? Considering the low user base we have to deal with here, any Orbiter-based combat sim would have to focus primarily on the single-player experience.

2.As was already said, a damage, temperature and energy production (for energy weapons and sensors etc.) model.
Agreed.

3.Reliable collision detection.
This doesn't have to be done in a fancy generic "it hit this precise spot on the mesh" way. Many games have successfully used a hit-box concept, so you'd have a hit on, say, the left wing. All the models used in the game would then need to have such a structure. A full-on super-precise generic collision detection engine is overkill.

4.Scientifically grounded physical models of weaponry.
What do you mean by "scientifically grounded?" If you don't allow at least a little bit of wiggle room, the game will end up being boring.

5.Surface bases/ships/... that can provide fire support
Concur.

6.Sensors/countermeasures/detectibility models
There is no stealth in space, if you want to be realistic about it. Some form of sensors other than just the built-in name tagging of vessels would be needed.

7.Set of standarts for spacecraft characteristics balance, that will limit and define the "development" of new weapons. E.g. one pound of engine weight of a given technology level and propulsion principle may produce X newtons of thrust; one pound of weapon weight may give out Y joules of kinetic/light/... energy per second.
Definitely. And you need a way for "illegal" craft to not be used (considering how easy it is to develop addons for Orbiter, you'd need a way to make sure that someone didn't go and throw on whatever they wanted). This would not be that difficult, I think -- if a player fires on something, query the player's vessel. If it doesn't respond correctly, then ignore the shot.


I can also think of a major thing you're forgetting that would make or break any combat sim: a story. You have to have something believable that tells the player why they are fighting. The story has to advance over the course of the game. This really isn't a technical limitation, but the game world won't be able to be completely static, I think.

Also important would be good-looking terrain, at least in the vicinity of surface bases. See below.

And then of course there's the question of how realistic space combat on an interplanetary scale is. Space is huge. In general, a battle in the traditional sense would only occur at predetermined sites, never in deep space. By "predetermined sites" I don't mean that the two forces sit down and decide where to fight, I mean points of strategic interest -- surface bases, key orbital platforms, etc. (That's where the terrain comes in--a lot of the fighting will have to be on the surface).

This isn't "Firefly" where a Reaver ship going the completely opposite direction drifts past at a few meters per second. In reality, two vessels going opposite directions would have huge differences in velocity. It wouldn't be economical to completely waste all your fuel in order to slow down and engage the enemy in a traditional tactical engagement. You'd take a couple of very carefully aimed pot-shots at each other as you passed and hope to cause enough damage to prevent the enemy ship from doing whatever it was heading to do.
 

T.Neo

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I think we'll actually see propulsion systems used as weapons. Those high velocity thrust streams...
 

Urwumpe

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Well, what about defining a generic damage model for Orbiter?

Basically, we just search for ways to project energy on a target. This can be kinetic energy and mechanical forces (also shock waves), or radiation (lasers, masers, nuclear mines).

As suggestion for the start: A library which defines solid primitives (cylinders, spheres, hollow cylinders, hollow spheres, etc). Each primitive gets modeled as receiver for the minimal set of damages we could possibly find.

Another part of the library then takes a damage profile (for example a kinetic kill vehicle) and and "ray traces" it's damage. If the number of primitives and damage rays is low enough, this can be done in real time. As the damages would not always propagate through the full spacecraft during one time step, we could even do divide and conquer.

Would be no true FEM model of a spacecraft, but somewhere close.
 

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Because there are no single player games, right? Considering the low user base we have to deal with here, any Orbiter-based combat sim would have to focus primarily on the single-player experience.
It's interesting to shoot down 10^x sitting ducks in an arcade, but not in a simulator. Or can you write an AI?..

A full-on super-precise generic collision detection engine is overkill.
A simulation of ISS by a box is a slapdash. A simple (<200 polys) collision mesh attached to a craft will do the job.

What do you mean by "scientifically grounded?" If you don't allow at least a little bit of wiggle room, the game will end up being boring.
Tht means no deathrays, plasma weapons or voodoo magic. And by models I meant "Chemical laser with X watts impulse power, L nm wavelength and D centimeters aperture".

There is no stealth in space, if you want to be realistic about it. Some form of sensors other than just the built-in name tagging of vessels would be needed.
Airborne radars have limited range - around 200km for fighter-sized target (aka XR2), while a reentry torch will be even visually, not talking about IR, seen from the geostationary orbit; passive systems are useless if there's a planet behind a target. We should expect no more than around 1,000 km for a spaceborne radar; and that falls to around 20-50km for a stealth-designed vessel (Hyper-Dart).

Note: Present IR EOS fighter systems can see another fighter with engines on military ~100-150km away from rear, because of atmosphere interference. That will be the case for "look-down" situation in a LEO.
 

Urwumpe

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What is unrealistic about plasma weapons?

The answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question what is plasma?
 

DarkWanderer

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What is unrealistic about plasma weapons?
They itself ;)
USA now has tactical lasers, riot microwave weapons and so on, but plasma weapons stil are purely fantastic.

Well, what about defining a generic damage model for Orbiter?
<...>
Another part of the library then takes a damage profile (for example a kinetic kill vehicle) and and "ray traces" it's damage. If the number of primitives and damage rays is low enough, this can be done in real time. As the damages would not always propagate through the full spacecraft during one time step, we could even do divide and conquer.

Would be no true FEM model of a spacecraft, but somewhere close.

Seems reasonable. Maybe it doesn't even worth to do raytracing, just checking the distances to a primitive (to nearest poly and its vertexes, if it's convex) will be enough.
 

T.Neo

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The answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question what is plasma?

Ionized particles? :p

You mean hot air?

Why exactly? Is it because it is impossible to direct a stream of plasma dense enought to cause any damage?

As for space combat, I think we won't see any "fighter" like craft like in the movies- there isn't really any use for them.
 
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