Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

Andy44

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Okay, I guess I'll be the one to kick this off. Episode VIII of the Star Wars trilogy of trilogies opened tonight and I just got home from it. I have many observations to make, and lots of opinions, of course, which I'll get into tomorrow since it's late here.

But first off: SPOILERS

If you haven't seen the movie, back out of this thread now and come back when you have. You've been warned.

All I'm gonna say is I have mixed feelings about this one. Sooo many things to debrief here...
 

Zatnikitelman

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As you can probably tell from the chatbox I FREAKING LOVED IT! I feel that this topped both 7 and Rogue One! I have to say, that hyperspeed destruction scene is easily my favorite scene in the entire franchise!
 

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I watched it last night in 3D, and I quite liked it, too (well, most of it) -- particularly the scenes with Kylo Ren and Rey. It was cool how Kylo was able to kill Snoke while Snoke was focused on reading him. And the scene where Kylo and Rey were fighting back-to-back with the elite guards was bad-ass! I also liked the humorous moments in the movie. And porgs were cute. :)

What I really loved is how Luke is as flawed as any other human, and how he acknowledged that the Jedi's hubris and arrogance, and their acting out of fear, led to their downfall. Anyone else notice the parallel between Mace Windu and Luke? Mace Windu wanted to murder Palpatine out of fear, and that, partially at least, contributed to Anakin's becoming Darth Vader. And Luke, even if just for a moment, wanted to murder Kylo in his sleep because Luke feared what he could become. While that alone didn't cause Kylo to turn away from the Light, it certainly contributed to it...and I do love "shades of gray" characters. :tiphat:

One thing I recall from seeing Luke (well, "Force Projection Luke") ignite his light saber was that it was blue -- I remember thinking, "That should be green, since that was his lightsaber's color in Return of the Jedi. And why is Luke's gray hair now brown? And HOW did Luke just survive that blaster barrage from multiple Walkers??" But then it all made sense once it was revealed that this was just a Force Projection from Luke, who was still on Ahch-To. I also liked the twin suns setting scene where Luke passed on -- it reminded me of the Tattooine sunset scene with young Luke right at the end of Star Wars.

There were some things I didn't particularly care for, such as the whole trip to the casino planet where they pick up some random thief after getting arrested for (idiotically!) parking on a public beach -- the whole idea was to be low-profile here, and that certainly wasn't how to do it. The whole subplot sequence there seemed way too long, and it threw off the movie pacing. The one cool thing that came out of all that was the ending scene with the young boy Force-pulling the broom to his hand -- implying that Rey will not be the last Jedi, either, just like Luke had said.

I also felt like the scene with Yoda didn't work, particularly with the (magical?) lightning suddenly igniting the tree that was the Jedi temple. It just seemed "off" to me -- I would have preferred that Luke just torched it himself. But that's a minor nitpick.

Another thing that seemed off to me was Leia's surviving that huge bridge explosion and then regaining consciousness in a vacuum and Force-pulling herself all the way back to the ship. That would be a quite a feat for even a fully trained Jedi Master to pull off (and, even then, it seems far-fetched -- how could even a Jedi Master survive a huge explosion like that, followed by vacuum?). But it was dramatic, lol. I was happy to see her get a lot more screen time later in the movie, though. And that she survives in the end. :tiphat:

Overall, although I liked The Force Awakens more, I quite liked The Last Jedi, too, and it seems like a worthy successor to me. The next movie is going to be interesting, with them further developing Kylo Ren and Rey's characters.

EDIT:
To echo Zatman's sentiments about the hyperspace destruction scene, I loved how they did a "silence of space" shot when it happened: it made it much more powerful to watch, at least for me. Great stuff!
 
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PhantomCruiser

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I'd wondered myself if rotisserie porg was any good. Too bad Chewie got the sad faced guilt trip and didn't find out.

I think they probably could have cut a lot from the casino planet, I understand how they needed to work the kids in that scene. One of the "headlines" I've seen said something about the last scene "explained". Freakin' watch the movie? No explanation needed (and the reflection off the broom handle = lightsaber (duh).

Just the right amount of humor. Luke brushing his shoulder after that blaster barrage, priceless.
 

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I much preferred The Last Jedi to The Force Awakens, if only because TLJ wasn't just a shot-for-shot remake of Empire Strikes Back...they put the speeder vs. walker fight at the end :p

I also found Finn's character much less annoying this time around, although he still seemed to be able to do or know whatever he needed to (I thought he couldn't fly? Now he's piloting a speeder?).

The humor I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, it was funny at the time; on the other, some of it (notably Luke tickling Rey's hand with the leaf and telling her it was the Force) looked more like just the cast screwing around (like something that should've been in a blooper) than something that should've actually gone in the movie. On the other other hand, I thought Luke's eccentricity was a nice parallel to Yoda's from ESB (it's like poetry, it rhymes) and it was certainly enjoyable. Poe's scene with Hux at the start was funny and a nice parallel to the "who talks first" bit from TFA, but I felt they dragged that on a little long.

The Porgs seemed to exist only to sell toys, and they looked absurdly fake to me--like they just took some of the stuffed animals off the shelves and put them in the movie.

I concur that the Rose/Finn cantina subplot took too long and was one of the least interesting bits.

The hyperspace maneuver was epic, but if it was that effective why isn't this a normal part of fleet strategy in the Star Wars universe? Also, Admiral Holdo should've been Sabine from Rebels (about the right age, too)...

Zombie Leia was.....meh. I would've preferred it if Luke had been involved with that rather than her doing it herself, since she had never before shown any great talent with the "make things float" part of the Force.

Anyone else notice that the Jedi books were onboard the Falcon at the end? Looks like Rey stole them before she left. I feel like they maybe should've lingered on that for a little longer, it was almost a blink-and-you'll-miss-it kind of thing...

The two big questions going into this movie were "Who's Snoke?" and "Who's Rey?" The answers turned out to be "It doesn't matter" and "no one." I would've preferred to know more about Snoke, but the way Kylo did it was awesome. Snoke's character just ends up seeming rather...irrelevant.

Rey being no one is, I think, the second best outcome. Better than her being a Skywalker by far, but not as good as her being a Kenobi. Still, I'm not sure Kylo was telling the truth--he saw her fear that her parents were nobodies, and threw that at her in an attempt to evoke emotions that could lead her to the Dark Side. Plus, Rey's flashback from TFA (of being held back while watching a ship take off and screaming "no!") doesn't mesh with Kylo's comment that her parents were just Jakku scavengers... I'm still holding out hope she's Obi Wan's granddaughter.

There's probably more but I think this is long enough for now....
Edit: On a re-read of my comment it sounds rather negative, but I did overall enjoy the movie. Definitely will be seeing it again soon.
 
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Andy44

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Well, I for one am not afraid to sound negative, having slept on it and thought about it all day.

For starters, the initial scene had me cringing in the first 10 minutes of the film; not a good way to start. That stupid prank call and jokey dialogue for the rest of the film was out of place and immediately set the mood wrong.

Apparently, the Imperials have somehow gotten worse at combat than they used to be, since Poe Dameron can take out all those gun turrets on a "dreadnought" by himself while his cartoon droid keeps spawning fingers in a visual (yet another) joke.

Zombie Leia was another thing that had me cringing. I'm sorry, but if actual Jedi knights can die, so can an old lady with no Jedi training who gets sucked into space. Honestly, I thought that's how they were going to write Carrie Fisher out of the story, and I was okay with that; she died in combat fighting for the Rebellion, but, wait! Nope, guess not. The overall level of Force overkill only gets worse from there.

No one has mentioned that Ackbar also got wasted in that scene, in more ways than one. Unceremoniously blown up and sucked out the same hole Leia was. So instead of an actual character we know can command a fleet and whom we care about, we get purple-hair Laura Dern's irritating cameo. Why she told all her officers what her plan was but not Dameron is anybody's guess, as is why she didn't summarily execute him for mutiny. At least her hair looked cool.

The Finn subplot was pretty hard to sit through. Del Toro's character was a cardboard nobody. The whole casino scene, BB8 spitting nickels at people, really? I liked the new girl tech character, I hope they write something good for her later on. Captain Phasma, like Ackbar, is a lost opportunity. Would've liked to know her background and seen more of her, once again she gets bested by the Private Gomer Pyle of the Stormtroopers.

What I did like was the Luke/Ray/Kylo subplot. It wasn't perfectly executed or anything, but for those moments I actually felt like I was watching a real Star Wars movie. While Kylo was irritating in TFA, his character actually develops here and gains some depth and purpose. I agree that the fight in the throne room with the two of them teamed up was the best part of the whole movie. Ray was a Mary Sue in the last film but she has also developed into a character I care about. Daisy Ridley is a legit good actress and deserves better than they're giving her in these movies.

Luke Skywalker. Well? What can you say, we all love him, he's the main character of Star Wars. I thought Hamill did a great job with him. But I was waiting for him to pull his X-wing out of the water and come riding to the rescue in one of the many "we could use a Luke intervention" scenes, and he did not. Instead, we get more Force super-magic and, welp, that's all for Luke Skywalker, folks. Please collect your belonging as you exit the theater.

Force ghost bad-CGI Yoda also made me cringe. For the record, I kind of hate force ghosts. What started as a fever vision while Luke was dying in the snow on Hoth has become an abused, silly trope. If you're going to use it, use it sparingly and smartly. This was neither. Instead we get laughing, wise-cracking dead Yoda throwing lightning bolts.

Come on, now, this is Star Wars! We shouldn't have to settle for "oh I guess it was better than the first prequel." The Trilogy of Trilogies, and we're now 3 for 8 with only 1 left to go. Lucas deserves a lot of criticism, but at least 50% of his films were awesome. Disney is now 0 for 2. I'll give them Rogue One as a win; it was a fantastic film even if it was a fluke but it wasn't part of the trilogies. Maybe Solo and Ep. IX will be better? I certainly hope so.

As an aside, Carrie Fisher was looking pretty awful throughout this film. Her health problems were certainly showing, and it was hard to watch. She appeared at least 10-15 years older than she was. I saw Star Wars as a little kid and we all loved her so much, and she was 19 in that film. When R2D2 popped out the old "Help me Obi Wan" holovid for Luke I almost teared up.

So at least the Ray and Kylo subplot gives me something to chew on for now. Maybe with some roast Porg on the side.
 
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PhantomCruiser

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Zombie Leia. That's funny.

I wasn't a fan of that scene either, it was a perfectly good way to end her character. I though her use of the force might have been an appeasement to the "expanded universe" that's now sitting in a garbage can (lot's of good stuff to sort through, like the Catana Fleet that's hyperspace jumping around somewhere). One of the books (can't remember, too long ago) had Leia undergoing some instruction by Luke. She was being held against her will and force ignited a lightsaber and swung it around enough to get her displeasure noted.

Did any of the characters say "I've got a bad feeling about this" during the movie? There were a few times I had to escort the 7 year old to the bathroom, I may have missed it.

I bet porg would be good in a stew, like rabbit. Gumbo for sure.
 

dbeachy1

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I didn't notice any, either.

I bet porg would be good in a stew, like rabbit. Gumbo for sure.

:rofl:

I was SO wishing for Chewie to eat that porg! It did seem odd, though, that a roasted porg was even shown, since some Porg were also obviously pets. :blink: It was a funny scene, though, despite that.
 

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I quite liked it. It had a slight air of prequelesque juvenility to it that I found a bit irritating, as well as some "gimmickiness" in the tech shown, which I also found prequelesque. It shared both of those characteristics with 7. The movie also confirmed an impression about IV that I formed after seeing VII: The Death Star was, with 20/20 hindsight a mistake. Don't get me wrong: it was great as a self-contained plot for a standalone movie, and Lucas couldn't be sure that he'd get to make more than one. But once you have superweapons in a universe, they either have to keep being built or you have to handwave why not, and if they do keep being built, they can become a bit stale after a while.

Speaking of 20/20 hindsight, I didn't mind "zombie Leia", or them offing Luke, except the fact that real life ended up writing the plot for them, and given that Leia is going to end up dieing of a heart attack offscreen (I figure the most graceful way of dealing with it is to just write the actor's real cause of death in as the character's cause of death) Leia not dieing at that particular point, and Luke expiring from the effort of projecting himself, or from blowback from his image being hit with a lightsaber, or whatever, leaving Rey without anyone to train her leaves IX on shaky ground. I think pretty obviously the plot they had intended for IX was for Leia to train Rey (Leia demonstrates that she's got a good enough handle on the force to do so, and was obviously meant to appear in the next), but that's no longer possible, and they ended up killing off Luke too, which *would* have been fine, except Carrie Fisher is dead and Mark Hamill isn't. I'd almost rather they had delayed the release 6 months and reshot a few things to kill Leia at the point where she gets spaced, and have Luke survive his final scene. I don't think anyone would have blamed them for the delay, and they could have just released it as a summer blockbuster rather than a holiday flick. But maybe the logistics just didn't work out, given that they'd just wrapped shooting when Carrie Fisher died. The other potentially logistically infeasible thing they could have done would have been to have had alternative plot lines written and shot for each film in case of an actor's death at some point between starting filming on VII and finishing IX.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

.

Come on, now, this is Star Wars! We shouldn't have to settle for "oh I guess it was better than the first prequel."

It was better than *all* the prequels, *and* it was better than what the whole Yuuzhan Vong invasion did to the EU, *and* the new movies nuke the YV invasion out of canon. Unless IX is awful, I'll take the new canon over the old, just for that last point.

---------- Post added at 09:49 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

I was SO wishing for Chewie to eat that porg! It did seem odd, though, that a roasted porg was even shown, since some Porg were also obviously pets. :blink: It was a funny scene, though, despite that.

I just wish Chewie had made up his mind one way or another. Either put the spit down and be nice to the living porgs, or take a huge bite while they watch.

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

Oh, and I found the *correct* use of "parsec" quite amusing.
 

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I was unimpressed - sorry, but even prequels were better than these VII and VIII episodes. I do not find "Phantom Menace" too bad. Is it (fan hatred) because of Jar Jar Binks? I did not like that character also, but overall impression was good back then.
Humor is irritating, totally unrealistic, when I saw Leia coming back from space vacuum, I just thought "maybe to go out of cinema immediately?".
Maybe I am getting old, but something is wrong. Although "Rogue one" seemed OK for me.
 
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Linguofreak

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I was unimpressed - sorry, but even prequels were better than these VII and VIII episodes. I do not find "Phantom Menace" too bad. Is it (fan hatred) because of Jar Jar Binks?

In my case, it's not hated of Jar-Jar. I like Episode I, but I like VII and VIII better. II and III are crap, though.

Humor is irritating, totally unrealistic, when I saw Leia coming back from space vacuum, I just thought "maybe to go out of cinema immediately?".

That scene with Leia, I feel, was meant to establish her as a trained and powerful force user that could train Rey, which, I think, was what they intended to have happen in Episode IX. Given that Carrie Fisher died right after they finished filming and won't be available for IX, though, it does end being a bit of a gimmick that will lead nowhere, but it's a plot weakness because real life wrote the plot for them, not because the plot they had in mind was weak.
 

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I liked it in general.
I didn't like the very not subtle emphasis of the named heroes having plot protection.
I didn't like some moments of over-the-top bad physics.
I liked the epic hyperspace splatter scene and Luke's late performance.

---

That bomber run at the start was just plain bad space physics even by star wars standards of magic space flight. Dropping bombs while over a ship? Come on.

The Leia un-blowout scene was rather unexpected in every way - i totally expected that to be the point they write her out of the story, and since she does not do much afterwards it was just odd. Ok, maybe they weren't able re-shoot the scenes by the time she died, and cutting them out completely would have broken the movie, but the scene does not make much sense even if she wasn't dead for real.

Oh, and then there is the matter of death.
The movie started with a very interesting scene of Leia looking at the not so large in the typical scale of a star wars battle losses and mourns. Scolding the commander for the losses at a small gain. This all seemed right.

Then, in the next battle, she gets blown out and magically saved. None else does.

Then ships get picked off one by one, with an occasional mention of "everyone evacuated", sure, but still.
Then the shuttles leave, and get picked off one by one (what "anti-radar"? They were in plain sight visual range!).
That protracted pick-shuttles-off-one-by-one, one per second, for half an hour part was really jarring - once again, we have a cruiser-full of people, most got killed, but guess which shuttle never got blown up?

Then we have the battle on the ground. Finn tries to sacrifice himself, but is prevented from doing so by the tech girl.

The scene is brilliant in it's mocking of the deaths of nobodies.
"why have you done this?"
"cause you are too main a character to die!"
*rebel base gets blown up in the background*
The life of one main character is worth more than lives of hundreds of nobodies.

In the end, the cruiser-full of people got reduced to the main cast and a few random people, all fitting into the Millennium Falcon.

So, yeah. Can't quite point out a precise moment when the movie got me kicked out of the universe and into the spot-the-absurdity mode (ghost-Yoda throwing lightning bolts?), but apparently it happened somewhere half-way through it.

I do not find "Phantom Menace" too bad. Is it (fan hatred) because of Jar Jar Binks?
Perhaps.
Having seen PM before the original trilogy, i had no reasons to hate it, only to find it being a regular meh movie.

To me the prequels feel like a draft, something incomplete on many levels.
The graphics reminded of a game - something game-CGI-shiny, fastly-done and devoid of details. The story sounds like a high level overview that was quickly padded with cliches that were supposed to be fleshed out later, the script looks like it's full of padding that never got trimmed off through an editing phase, etc.
The potential is there, often a few minor edits away, but it looks like no one bothered to do that editing pass.

won't be available for IX
Well, giving the pace of CGI these days i wouldn't bet on that. We have a fairly good precedent.

However, i think they announced that they won't do that this time a few month ago.
 

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Didn't like it that much. It has some 5/5 scenes, followed by forced humor and dumb stuff that's 1/5.

It clearly feels like the Lucas prequels is some places.

And a touch of Disney that doesn't help at all.
For example, basic plot points are explained 2 or 3 times; captive animals; morality about arms dealing, social differences, eating flesh, drinking milk and having your shirt off...

If you removed all that crap, it would be a solid 4/5 movie.
As it is, 3/5, worse than Force Awakens or Rogue One...

---------- Post added at 22:39 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

. Can't quite point out a precise moment when the movie got me kicked out of the universe

When you see a bottle of champagne being open on the casino planet. Zero imagination there, you have regular champagne and pretty normal slot machines and gaming tables.
007 could walk right in and feel at home....
 

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I liked it in general.
I didn't like the very not subtle emphasis of the named heroes having plot protection.
I didn't like some moments of over-the-top bad physics.
I liked the epic hyperspace splatter scene and Luke's late performance.

---

That bomber run at the start was just plain bad space physics even by star wars standards of magic space flight. Dropping bombs while over a ship? Come on.

The Leia un-blowout scene was rather unexpected in every way - i totally expected that to be the point they write her out of the story, and since she does not do much afterwards it was just odd. Ok, maybe they weren't able re-shoot the scenes by the time she died, and cutting them out completely would have broken the movie, but the scene does not make much sense even if she wasn't dead for real.

Oh, and then there is the matter of death.
The movie started with a very interesting scene of Leia looking at the not so large in the typical scale of a star wars battle losses and mourns. Scolding the commander for the losses at a small gain. This all seemed right.

Then, in the next battle, she gets blown out and magically saved. None else does.

Then ships get picked off one by one, with an occasional mention of "everyone evacuated", sure, but still.
Then the shuttles leave, and get picked off one by one (what "anti-radar"? They were in plain sight visual range!).
That protracted pick-shuttles-off-one-by-one, one per second, for half an hour part was really jarring - once again, we have a cruiser-full of people, most got killed, but guess which shuttle never got blown up?

Then we have the battle on the ground. Finn tries to sacrifice himself, but is prevented from doing so by the tech girl.

The scene is brilliant in it's mocking of the deaths of nobodies.
"why have you done this?"
"cause you are too main a character to die!"
*rebel base gets blown up in the background*
The life of one main character is worth more than lives of hundreds of nobodies.

In the end, the cruiser-full of people got reduced to the main cast and a few random people, all fitting into the Millennium Falcon.

So, yeah. Can't quite point out a precise moment when the movie got me kicked out of the universe and into the spot-the-absurdity mode (ghost-Yoda throwing lightning bolts?), but apparently it happened somewhere half-way through it.

Perhaps.
Having seen PM before the original trilogy, i had no reasons to hate it, only to find it being a regular meh movie.

To me the prequels feel like a draft, something incomplete on many levels.
The graphics reminded of a game - something game-CGI-shiny, fastly-done and devoid of details. The story sounds like a high level overview that was quickly padded with cliches that were supposed to be fleshed out later, the script looks like it's full of padding that never got trimmed off through an editing phase, etc.
The potential is there, often a few minor edits away, but it looks like no one bothered to do that editing pass.

Well, giving the pace of CGI these days i wouldn't bet on that. We have a fairly good precedent.

However, i think they announced that they won't do that this time a few month ago.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

I also agree about the death part. There were a lot of Rebel troops in the trench defending the base at the end. Did they all die? I don't remember, and they certainly didn't all fit into the Falcon.

One thing's for sure, it's no wonder nobody answered the distress call; fighting alongside Leia is a good way to get killed. Even Admiral Ackbar dies like a nobody in this movie.

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

Interesting article on fan reaction to the film, and how there is a huge gap between the professional critics and the fans' assessments of this film compared to previous Star Wars films:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcai...against-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#6a3d9a401d7b

Star-Wars-RT-scores.jpg
 

dbeachy1

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'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Delivers Second Largest Opening Ever

Quoting from the article:

boxofficemojo said:
With an estimated $220 million, Star Wars: The Last Jedi delivered the second largest opening weekend ever behind only Star Wars: The Force Awakens, which debuted with $247.9 million back in 2015. Last Jedi got off to a strong start on Thursday night with the second largest preview gross ever of $45 million and became only the second film to ever gross over $100 million on opening day resulting in the second largest opening day ever, second largest single day, second largest Friday and joins Force Awakens as the fastest films to reach $100 million.

Lots of good comments in this thread, I agree with almost all of them. :thumbup: I think once I buy this on Blu-ray I'm going to make a custom edit of this just for my own viewing so I can edit out the stuff I didn't like (zombie Leia, 90% of the casino planet, magic lighting bolt, much of Yoda's talk with Luke, that freaky scene with Luke drinking milk, and a number of other little things I can't recall right now). For example, on the casino planet, it could be edited so that:

1. Land on the beach.
2. Go into casino and look around. Maybe add a bit of the race.
3. Cut out everything else until it shows them back on the ship with the codebreaker dude -- so it can look like they found the person that Maz recommended to them.

That way, it fixes the pacing and makes the character more interesting since it would mean that Maz's friend was not exactly the person she thought he was.

Maybe I can even edit it to make it look like Chewie did eat that porg. :lol: So it's gonna be fun to edit that.

But I still quite liked the movie, despite the stuff I want to edit out. :)
 

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I'm going to make a custom edit of this just for my own viewing

Same here! I'm into that and some movies do improve a lot.
My Star Trek V and Star Trek Nemesis are now very decent movies.

So we must talk about ideas for editing latter on!
I'd go as far as totally removing the casino planet. Cutting it creates some continuity problems for Poe's character latter on, but I think it can be fixed.

This movie would be much tighter at around 1:30, so a lot has got to go.
Don't be afraid to be heavy handed in cutting.

The casino subplot may work as a kind of standalone extra.
 
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