Discussion Virtual Aeronautics and Space Administration

darrenc

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Howdy, folks!

I'm still a relative n00b here, but I'd like to make a suggestion.

I've been working on a model of the proposed Russian Kliper (pronounced: "Clipper") spacecraft (pic attached, if you are interested), and I realised that something inside me finds great appeal in the more realistic spacecraft Orbiter has to offer. I love the XR-2 as much as anyone, but I feel there is a lack of spacecraft bridging the gap between reality and fantasy. I want more than the Shuttle, but less than the XR-series!

This is why I would like to propose the Virtual Aeronautics and Space Administration. The goal:

To develop addons for Orbiter which are consistent with current or near-term (<10 years) real life technology.

For instance, when developing a new spacecraft, the time will usually come when you realise you need an engine with the thrust of an F1 and the Isp of an ion propulsion system. Or perhaps you need a hull made from unobtanium? The goal of VASA would be to resist temptation to "fudge the numbers" and insist on realistic specifications and performance.

Every nut and bolt on the spacecraft would have to be accounted for in the final mass. Every increase in Isp would have to be justified. Every bell and whistle would have to face the question: do we really need this?

People who I feel could contribute to such an effort include:

* Visionaries (to come up with ideas for stuff)
* Engineers (people with real-life experience in building stuff)
* 3D modellers (to make our stuff look purdy)
* Programmers (to make our stuff work)
* Tech gurus (to make our stuff realistic)

The main appeal to me, of this idea, is that there are times when I don't have enough knowledge or experience in a particular area to do the job properly. I feel that having a (somewhat) organised community, each with their own speciality, would benefit anyone interested in Orbiter addon development. I also think the discussions over what we can afford to include in a spacecraft would be very enlightening, especially from those who do this kind of thing for a living!

After watching "Mars Rising", I am inspired to suggest an initial goal could be, before this decade is out, to develop a spacecraft for a manned mission to Mars. This is a goal which is perhaps within reach of current technology and challenging enough, without being completely unobtainable.

Of course, there is no need to focus on only one project at a time. Different sub-groups could focus their energies on the projects which most appeal to them (VASA-JPL, anyone?).

Besides, the worst thing which could happen is it all turns into a beurocratic mess that never gets anything done. But at that point, we would be just like the real NASA, so it's a win-win!

So what does the forum think? "Hell yeah!", "not worth the effort", or "well-intentioned, but doomed to fail"?

As promised, are pics of my Kliper:

 
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IronRain

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I say: Yes! I was waiting for this add-on! great work :thumbup: Although, I'm not (yet) in the modeling/engineering stuff, so I wouldn't be able to help :(
 

Xyon

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I do really quite like that idea. Though I probably already have enough projects to keep me occupied, I'd certainly be willing to invest a little time and coding energy into some projects from this neck of the woods.
 

darrenc

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I say: Yes! I was waiting for this add-on! great work :thumbup:

Which one? The Kliper or the Mars project?

The Kliper is my first attempt at making a spacecraft - I've previously been toying with MFD's. I don't know if anything will come of it at this stage. The problem is, the Kliper proposal changes so often it's hard to find anything definitive about it.

As for the Mars project, it's something I've wanted to do for a while, but I feel there is too much involved and too much I don't know about a manned Mars mission to be able to do it solo. Hence, this proposal :)

Although, I'm not (yet) in the modeling/engineering stuff, so I wouldn't be able to help :(
Sure you would! One of the driving motivations for me is to get different peoples input into how a Mars mission would actually work! Basically, "ideas" people to throw stuff out there and then we can have a discussion about how feasible/practical it is.

For instance:

* How crucial would it be to combat zero-G with a rotating spacecraft? (I really liked James Camerons idea about a tethered spacecraft from the Mars Rising show).
* Would the spacecraft carry the Earth entry capsule with it, or would that be launched on return for orbital rendezvous?
* Would the trans-Mars stage remain in orbit on return for possible re-use?
* Would the fuel for return be generated on Mars or carried from Earth?
* Or would a Nuclear Thermal Rocket (politics aside) be feasible?

These are just a few of the zillion questions about a Mars mission which we would have to debate!

I do really quite like that idea. Though I probably already have enough projects to keep me occupied

I can sympathise with you, there! Perhaps I just don't know when to say, "enough" ;)

I'd certainly be willing to invest a little time and coding energy into some projects from this neck of the woods.
Good to hear! It wouldn't necessarily involve any coding/modelling input if you don't have the time. Like I said to IronRain, I'm very interested in discussions over the mission "mode". Although coding help would be appreciated :)
 

Xyon

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* How crucial would it be to combat zero-G with a rotating spacecraft? (I really liked James Camerons idea about a tethered spacecraft from the Mars Rising show).
* Would the spacecraft carry the Earth entry capsule with it, or would that be launched on return for orbital rendezvous?
* Would the trans-Mars stage remain in orbit on return for possible re-use?
* Would the fuel for return be generated on Mars or carried from Earth?
* Or would a Nuclear Thermal Rocket (politics aside) be feasible?

1. From what I understand about the issues surrounding spending long periods of time in zero-G and the body thusly changing, I'd say it's pretty important to have some kind of artificial gravity.

2. Depends. How heavy is it? It all boils down to, which is more economical? Is it cheaper in terms of delta-v to send it to Mars with the rest, to launch it from Earth with the stack and leave it in a stable parking orbit for when it gets back, or to launch it separately from Earth to intercept the returning vessel?

3. Almost like a transient space station? Come home, send something like a shuttle (sniff) up to resupply and recrew, and then head back off to Mars again? That could work, but there would doubtless be complications.

4. Both, I'd suspect. Though I'm not savvy enough on Mars to know what can and can't be generated / produced there.

5. Again, not savvy enough on those to comment adequately. Except that I'd quite like to turn Mars green, but not by irradiating it. :p
 
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River Crab

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I'm also still kind of a newb, but I really like where you're going here. It reminds me of the old SimNASA project.
I know you didn't mention this as a job, but I can do some logo design for the project, if that's open. And visionary-ing, and Probe-Hailing. But anyone can do those, I guess.

I'd like to at least try to attempt to contribute with my humble opinion. Please don't be offended if I sound forceful in my spew of ideas. Aaaanyway...
Kliper model looks fantastic! Although with the current status of the real Kliper (pretty much dead for now), what I would suggest is, rather than trying to make a SSU-perfect simulation of the real thing, go with your own alternate history and stick with it. Something like,
What if ESA had given it support?
What if China decided they wanted to help, in order to use it in project 921-3?
What if JAXA joined with the RKA to co-develop the Kliper's internals? (Russian airframe + Japanese avionics = epic win)
What if some business bigwig took off with the proposal, like Bigelow Aerospace did with TransHab?
Figure out what you want, take one of the Kliper proposals, and build up the internals with fictional but realistic systems. You could also go further in the story, making the ideal version with folding wings and moar windows and whatnot.
This guy has some really nice looking concepts:
http://drakath-terracube.blogspot.com/

I want more than the Shuttle, but less than the XR-series!
There's quite a large gap there, if you're talking about the default XR vessels. Anyway, they are configurable; see this thread:
http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=10246&
Although, the XR series vessels are not meant as current-tech realistic vessels, just because of their design mechanics- things like hover/retro engines and unobtainium heatshield. And don't get me wrong, I love them too, but they're just not meant to be realistic.
If you're going for something in the range between STS and XR series, you'll want to hold your breath for the Delta-Starliner G42 from Moach- a more realistic SSTO spaceplane, similar in role to HOTOL or Skylon: http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=14960
I do understand, however, that you want something totally real and accounted for, so maybe not that.
Of course, we don't have a Skylon addon either...that would be a very ambitious project which is a far-off dream, I'm definitely not asking anyone to make it or anything...

before this decade is out, to develop a spacecraft for a manned mission to Mars.
And do the other thing? :lol:
Personally I think if we ignored all red tape and funding issues, it MIGHT be possible. I've become skeptical after seeing the disaster that was the Constellation system. And I doubt any private space venture will be leaving LEO soon. Not just the US, I mean everyone here.

* Would the fuel for return be generated on Mars or carried from Earth?
That's ISRU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-situ_resource_utilization
Here's an interesting presentation from NASA's JPL, favours production of Methane and Oxygen on Mars surface:
http://isdc2.xisp.net/~kmiller/isdc_archive/fileDownload.php/?link=fileSelect&file_id=19

* Or would a Nuclear Thermal Rocket (politics aside) be feasible?
See NERVA2, supposedly uses current technology: [nomedia="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3865"]NERVA 2[/nomedia]
All these existing addons could make this project much easier. Again, just my humble (long) opinion.

Good luck!

:hail: :probe:
 
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darrenc

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I know you didn't mention this as a job, but I can do some logo design for the project, if that's open.

Sure, if this project gains some traction, a logo would be great! But you'd better wait to see if this ends up going anywhere first before wasting your efforts.

And visionary-ing, and Probe-Hailing. But anyone can do those, I guess.

Actually, that is the part I'm looking forward to the most! Trying to figure it all out could be a heck of a lot of fun.

Thanks for your comments regarding the Kliper. I have only just skimmed the blog link you provided, but he has some awesome renderings, that's for sure! I am planning on being very fluid with the Kliper internals... whatever I find works best. There is basically zero information about the "real" thing, so I think artistic license is justified :)

There's quite a large gap there, if you're talking about the default XR vessels.

Yeah, I wasn't meaning to criticise them. I know they're not supposed to be realistic. They're great, but just too far-fetched.

What I'd really like is a Mars mission involving Earth orbit assembly of the spacecraft. There doesn't seem to be too much of that going on in the Orbiter community (apart from space stations), and it would not only be realistic, but really cool!

And do the other thing? :lol:

Oh, yes... the "other thing" :p


Personally I think if we ignored all red tape and funding issues, it MIGHT be possible. I've become skeptical after seeing the disaster that was the Constellation system. And I doubt any private space venture will be leaving LEO soon. Not just the US, I mean everyone here.

I agree that is best to forget funding, with limits. You could argue it would be possible to develop an anti-matter rocket if you threw squillions of dollars at it, but I would not like to see such an engine in a supposedly realistic add-on.

Here's an interesting presentation from NASA's JPL, favours production of Methane and Oxygen on Mars surface:

I had heard about this. It is an interesting ideal if you are going to use chemical propulsion. But I think NTRs are a reasonable prospect, if you could get the public on side over the "N" word.
http://isdc2.xisp.net/~kmiller/isdc_archive/fileDownload.php/?link=fileSelect&file_id=19
Again, just my humble (long) opinion.

Thanks a lot for your input. Sorry I don't have the time right now to reply in more detail, but you presented some really good info.

If this project were to move forward, I am thinking of a wiki-like planning and development setup. Does anybody here know much about setting up a wiki?

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

1. From what I understand about the issues surrounding spending long periods of time in zero-G and the body thusly changing, I'd say it's pretty important to have some kind of artificial gravity.

I'd agree. From what I hear, the 2-hour daily exercise about the shuttle is not very popular.

2. Depends. How heavy is it? It all boils down to, which is more economical? Is it cheaper in terms of delta-v to send it to Mars with the rest, to launch it from Earth with the stack and leave it in a stable parking orbit for when it gets back, or to launch it separately from Earth to intercept the returning vessel?

It would be cheaper in terms of propellent to not carry something to Mars and back to Earth again :)

3. Almost like a transient space station? Come home, send something like a shuttle (sniff) up to resupply and recrew, and then head back off to Mars again? That could work, but there would doubtless be complications.

I agree. Those complications are the important issue though. We'd need to work out what they are. Basically, it's a cost/benefit thing.

4. Both, I'd suspect. Though I'm not savvy enough on Mars to know what can and can't be generated / produced there.

Mars has lots of CO2. Carbon and Oxygen are form the basic elements of most fuels. Also, if Mars has water, then hydrogen is available.

5. Again, not savvy enough on those to comment adequately. Except that I'd quite like to turn Mars green, but not by irradiating it. :p

NTR's are usually proposed only as upper (space flight only) stages. Convincing the greens that it's safe to launch one could prove difficult, though!
 

darrenc

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Sorry for the late reply, but I mean the Kliper

Meh... punctuality isn't my strong point either. :thumbup:

The Kliper is proving to be quite fun to develop. There is enough info about it to give a good foundation, and filling in the "missing bits" is a good challenge, given that I am trying to keep it realistic.

My big problem at the moment is the landing gear arrangement. As far as I can see, there is zero information about this. From the shape of the Kliper, I am leaning towards a shuttle-like nose gear which deploys along the longitudinal axis, and a lateral deploying main gear (think: Supermarine Spitfire). It seems this is the only way to make the gear fit into the airframe.

I'm not sure how "strong" the gear will have to be. The Kliper is lighter than the shuttle, but I have no idea what it's touchdown speed would be. If I can work this out, I might be able to find a good real-life analogy in an F-14 or something along those lines.
 

River Crab

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I'm thinking someone who knows Russian could find much more info on Kliper. Yuri Kulchitsky immediately comes to mind, but he's pretty high up and I haven't seen him around for a really long time. Anyone?
 
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