Windows 8 developer preview version available

[Grover]

the purpose of Windows 8 (and indeed all quick-release OSs) is to pioneer In-Built Obsolescence. why should microsoft stop releasing software when it makes them money?

for example, how long does it take apple to release the next iPhone? ill tell you. not long enough. they just want you to buy every upgrade so they can make money out of you, like any other company.

you dont need every upgrade (although they are all improvements (XP to Vista excluded of course)) but you can have them if youre willing to pay for each one. youre probably best only taking every other OS they release. so because i have 7, ill hang on until 9 comes out, then its up to me whether i join in on the bugfinding and compatibility melée, or i wait it out until other people find the fixes for common software.


come to think of it, it is very simple, but its a revelation when someone points it out.

long story short, MS only releases so fast to make more money out of us. its probably best that most people do indulge MS in their corporate scheme, but we dont all have to.

 

[agentgonzo]

That's one of the things that kind of bugs me about all versions of windows: The barrage of prompts I have to click through just to run something.

I really don't understand what all the moaning about this is all about. Admittedly, I entirely missed Vista and that seems to be the main culprit (7 is apparently a lot better) but I rarely get a UAC box pop up. It's mostly on install and the only time I get a warning when I try and run something is when a program (like FF) is trying to update itself. In this situation, you should get a warning as it's a program trying to access more protected areas of your computer (%ProgramFiles%). Exactly the same happens with linux when you are asked to enter a superuser password to install/update. Having programs that modify files in %ProgramFiles% on during runtime goes against Window's programming guides for at least the last 15 years (orbiter included). The same goes for linux - try to modify a file in /usr/bin at runtime and it'll likely fail.

---------- Post added at 09:25 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------

But to upgrade just to upgrade? I don't think so.

Exactly. Who needs security fixes? I like my computer just as it is - full of viruses and bots stealing my banking passwords.

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------

There is little need to change things because there is a different color or shape or something.

Unless the different colour or shape makes it much more useful for you. The taskbar in 7 is a massive improvement over XP. For that reason alone I'd upgrade from XP to 7. This is akin to it being 'a slightly different shape'.

Let's take the history of skis as a random example. About 10-20 years ago, downhill skis used to be of uniform width (the sides of the individual ski were parallel). When doing turns, only the centre of the ski would bite into the snow and the front and back would flap about and not be of much use during the turn. With the invention of 'carving skis', the ski took on a more hour-glass shape (wider at the tips and backs and narrower in the centre). Now, when you turn, the ski flexes during the turn and the whole ski-edge bites into the snow giving you greater ski-snow contact area and thus greater control. All this mechanics of how it makes the newer skis much easier is not important to the user - the important thing is that it is a different shape which makes it easier for the user to ski.

The same thing is happening with later versions of software. The 'shape' changes that (in this example) MS are doing are to make things easier for the user - not because they just got bored and decided to make it a different shape. Your arguments are pointless, wrong and old.

 

[Pablo49]

In addition to what agentgonzo said: You also have to remember that UAC isn't stopping you from doing anything. Those who complain do so in a tone like Microsoft is limiting what they can do. Why does microsoft tell me what I can and cannot run? It doesn't.

I'd like to be able to do anything on my computer without being bothered, but that means a virus could too, and I just can't have that, And I quite enjoy knowing that just in case something bad finds it way onto my machine, my OS is going to get my attention.

EDIT:

Unless the different colour or shape makes it much more useful for you. The taskbar in 7 is a massive improvement over XP. For that reason alone I'd upgrade from XP to 7. This is akin to it being 'a slightly different shape'.

Again, I LOVE the win7 taskbar. But, for those of you who refuse to let go of winXP, you HAVE to use a couple of the products here. Namely, ViStart and especially ViGlance. They emulate the vista/7 start menu, and the 7 taskbar respectively. I really cannot recommend them enough. Try it for a day or two, then try going back. You can try a bit of 7, without committing to upgrading. Then, you can comment about changes being pointless visuals, or actually being worthwhile.

(Sorry if that sounded like an advert. I just love it so much.)

 

[agentgonzo]

...useful stuff...

Moreover, it's not that they expect everyone to upgrade when it comes out (this has never been the case). It's mainly aimed at the new PC market. When you buy a PC, you will need an OS to run on it. Generally this will be MS Windows. Would you like that OS to be the latest one with better functionality that looks great or do you want it to be 15 years old and be worse than the other choices? If they don't develop new OSes, then people buying PCs will go "Why am I buying this PC with this rubbishly old and outdated OS when I could buy a Mac that has the really useful OSX on it? Or just finally take the plunge and try linux?". That's when MS will lose out the money. It's like buying a car.

How many people upgrade the radio in their car whenever a new radio comes on the market? Very few (there are some that do, but then again there are some that upgrade Windows/OSX when a new one comes out). But if you were to buy a brand new Aston Martin that came with a radio that only played cassettes, didn't have digital tuning and only 4 memories, you'd be a bit annoyed and tell Aston to find a better radio supplier for their new cars.

 

[Zachstar]

Alright! Typing this from Windows 8 baby!

So far things aren't too too bad. I LOVE how fast it runs and how fast it boots even on this backup older pc (Puts windows XP to SHAME!)

Not digging the new UI too much yet. Needs more work but then again that is why this is scheduled for 2012.

One question that is confusing me tho. Where is Windows Media Center? That comes with Win 7 up no? Why not in 8?

 

[agentgonzo]

One question that is confusing me tho. Where is Windows Media Center? That comes with Win 7 up no? Why not in 8?

You're using an early beta. Probably because they haven't got around to doing it yet or it's not ready.

 

[garyw]

This isn't a build you would even begin to think about using as your primary OS. (Thought I would throw that out there in case someone decides to install this over their current OS.)

well, yes and no - certainly I wouldn't install this on any machine I need but I will install it onto a spare machine just to try it out. I also wouldn't install it onto another partition and try to dual boot - you don't know what changes have been made to the boot loader to get this version working.

---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 ----------

You're using an early beta. Probably because they haven't got around to doing it yet or it's not ready.

It's not even that, its a developer preview - it is really meant for developers to get a look at changes to the windows core API's that their applications might need and to get ready to update those applications if required.

 

[Artlav]

The taskbar in 7 is a massive improvement over XP.

Huh?
I haven't noticed any significant difference in shape or color.
Only an improvement - an ability to order the task buttons with mouse.
Slightly balanced by a lack of an easy way of setting up a quicklaunch panel.

Having programs that modify files in %ProgramFiles% on during runtime goes against Window's programming guides for at least the last 15 years (orbiter included).

Except that no sane person(tm) installs non-system programs into %ProgramFiles%

The same goes for linux - try to modify a file in /usr/bin at runtime and it'll likely fail.

At the same time you are free to ignore that rule. On Windows it was compulsory.

I LOVE how fast it runs and how fast it boots even on this backup older pc (Puts windows XP to SHAME!)

So let's wish it stays so.

 

[Pyromaniac605]

I heard somewhere that you have a choice between the new dashboard, or a classic style Desktop, is that true? That'll probably be a major part in deciding whether or not to upgrade for me.

 

[agentgonzo]

Huh?
I haven't noticed any significant difference in shape or color.

Seriously?

They look quite different (in both shape and colour) to my eye, and have different functionality. The grouping in 7 is far better, and you can fit many many more open apps on the taskbar before you run out of space

Only an improvement - an ability to order the task buttons with mouse.

Previews by hovering the mouse over are a great improvement in my workload. Killing windows by a preview-then-middle-mouse is so much easier in killing off apps that I no-longer need, as is spawning a new instance of the app by middle-clicking it. Oh, and jumplists. It's a MASSIVE improvement.

Slightly balanced by a lack of an easy way of setting up a quicklaunch panel.

The 'Pin to taskbar' feature makes the quicklaunch bar redundant as it combines the functionality into the main taskbar, but you can still add it back if you want to.

 

[MikeB]

This is all very interesting, and of course a lot of us hate change, but nobody has answered the most important question: How well does it run Orbiter?

 

[Face]

How well does it run Orbiter?

I guess it'll run no differently to 7. The biggest change IMO was the DirectX7 "emulation" that caused a frame-rate hit on Vista onwards. I expect no change in this regards with 8 on a machine already running 7.

I could be completely wrong, though, but I'll certainly find out for myself (will install it on a spare machine at work).

regards,
Face

 

[Pyromaniac605]

Really there's only two big things I'm hoping for.
1. More control over UAC.
It felt a bit limiting only being able to drag a slider between 3 or 4 UAC settings, I hope you can customise the UAC to your own needs.

2. Better compatibility mode.
Compatibility mode in Windows 7 was terrible, and rarely did it actually help in running old, outdated programs, hopefully compatibility mode is improved for those of us who still run some old software.

And of course as I said, being able to chose between the dashboard or a typical desktop would be great, although if they can pull off having a dashboard for a PC well, it might not be entirely necessary.

So, I'm not entirely certain whether I'm going to be upgrading when this does release (Not really willing to try installing the beta at this time) but if the price is reasonable (Bring me back from dreamland before I get too deep ) and if the dashboard system works or you can swap it for a desktop, then I don't see any reason I won't be upgrading.

 

[Artlav]

Seriously?
They look quite different (in both shape and colour) to my eye, and have different functionality.

Not in my experience:
Win7:

WinXP:

"Show desktop" is conveniently placed, and the icons are new, but everything else is exactly the same.

The grouping in 7 is far better, and you can fit many many more open apps on the taskbar before you run out of space

Never used that, never felt like needing it.
Wide monitor, few apps at once.

Previews by hovering the mouse over are a great improvement in my workload.

Never found it useful.
There is hovever occasional useful option in that hover-over menu.

Killing windows by a preview-then-middle-mouse is so much easier in killing off apps that I no-longer need, as is spawning a new instance of the app by middle-clicking it.

Nice, didn't know about that. Useful.

Oh, and jumplists. It's a MASSIVE improvement.

Never heard of it, what is it?
Microsoft site does not give a meaningful description.

The 'Pin to taskbar' feature makes the quicklaunch bar redundant as it combines the functionality into the main taskbar, but you can still add it back if you want to.

It's ugly for more than a couple buttons, so regular panel is needed.
No problems there - can be done.

 

[Zachstar]

This is all very interesting, and of course a lot of us hate change, but nobody has answered the most important question: How well does it run Orbiter?

It runs!

A little on the slow side tho at 27 or so FPS. I wonder if that has more to do with my 7300GT and AMD Athlon Dual Core 2.4ghz on this backup machine tho.

Fullscreen seems to be a bit slower as well.

Edit: Some programs wont install unless you set the installer compatibility mode to Windows 7 (Epic LOL) Afterwards I got VLC, Winamp, Firefox, FFdshow (Custom Build) NextPVR Installed.

Not much is seriously amiss and I respect Microsoft for the risk they are taking here. (Tho there is still PLENTY of time to make major changes and I praise them for letting this build out like 7's builds so early so we can make suggestions as well as of course the developers responding)

Somthing tells me this wont sell quite so high as Windows 7 but 7 had the numbers advantage of those who did not go with vista and had to move from XP. Tho I suspect the sales will be close. Especially if this MetroUI pans out and becomes useful to the average computer user.

I am also wondering if Microsoft Flight can make use of the Metro UI. Could be interesting! Especially if Windows Live integrates well into Metro.

 

[agentgonzo]

Not in my experience:
Win7:

WinXP:

"Show desktop" is conveniently placed, and the icons are new, but everything else is exactly the same.

So you're saying that it's not changed in shape or colour because you've selected the theme that mimics your previous theme? <facepalm>

Never used that, never felt like needing it.
Wide monitor, few apps at once.

Each to his own. I use lots at once, so it's a great bonus for me.

(Jumplists)Never heard of it, what is it?
Microsoft site does not give a meaningful description.

No, they don't. Extended functionality meaning you can do common things by right-clicking on the taskbar icon (at load time):
open Internet shortcut
Open previously opened file
Things like that. Not massively useful, but I occasionally use them.

It's ugly for more than a couple buttons, so regular panel is needed

I can agree with that, but then I was never one of the people who had to have every program they used in the quick launch bar. I just put 3-8 in there. Any more and it was too cluttered. Same with Win7 for me.

The other thing I've just remembered is that it incorporates progress bars into the icon so you can see at-a-glance how background windows are progressing (most useful in copy operations):

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

A little on the slow side tho at 27 or so FPS. I wonder if that has more to do with my 7300GT and AMD Athlon Dual Core 2.4ghz on this backup machine tho.

Fullscreen seems to be a bit slower as well.

Have you got comparative values for XP/7?

 

[Zachstar]

Sorry this is the backup PC. Never ran Orbiter before on it. Sorry that I cant make a proper comparison. Maybe the others can do that. Besides I highly doubt that any OS based slowdowns will be in the final build in 2012. Just was answering the question.

BTW you showed the copy screen of 7. The copy screen of 8 is AWESOMMMMMMMME even in comparison to 7s. It shows a graph of speed and allows you to pause. It even works on extracting Zips!

Right ON Microsoft!

 

[Artlav]

So you're saying that it's not changed in shape or colour because you've selected the theme that mimics your previous theme? <facepalm>

Sure.
I don't see changes in features i don't use.
Like you said, each to his own.

The other thing I've just remembered is that it incorporates progress bars into the icon so you can see at-a-glance how background windows are progressing (most useful in copy operations):

One more thing i never got used to, since DOS times, is the windows folders-and-icons-and-dragging file handling.
For me it was always norton commander, windows commander, total commander. Last one had this feature since forever.

Can't imagine a more comfortable file handling environment than TC, despite trying a lot of kinds.

 

[Mantis]

For me there are many smart little improvements in Windows 7 over XP, and together they add up to quite a noticeable difference. There is absolutely positively no reason to even mention XP any more.

Absolutely. It's also much more secure than XP and is available in 64Bit versions which is a big deal. Windows 7 is a significant step up over XP. It is far more stable - it never crashes.

 

[agentgonzo]

BTW you showed the copy screen of 7. The copy screen of 8 is AWESOMMMMMMMME even in comparison to 7s.

Yes, that was demonstrating the progress-bar-in-taskbar-icon functionality of 7 to Altlav. I saw the demo of the consolidated copy dialog in 8 on MS's blog and was impressed. It's something that should have been done long ago (In the same way that download dialogs got consolidated in FF/Opera way before IE got around to it) but it is a vast improvement.