Discussion Your Venus/Mars mission concepts/proposals

Nicholander

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Okay, thanks ISProgram! :thumbup: Anyway, I converted that to meters, and I calculated that MMH tank (With the 5% ullage added) could be a sphere 2.7 meters in diameter. That fits inside PADSL's 3 meter diameter, and if you stacked 2 of them on top of each other (One MMH, the other N204), the fuel tanks would have a combined height of about 5.4 meters. That's a bit too tall for what I'd like, but since the Jarvis fairing is pretty roomy, I guess It'll fit. And keep in mind that I used spheres, not the "pills" that I originally wanted. So you could reduce the height by making the tanks capsules.

(By the way, I'm going to have a shower now, so I won't be able to respond to your posts for a moment)

QUICK EDIT: By the way, is there a way to find out how big the toroidal fuel tank will be? (Has 60% of the fuel)
 

ISProgram

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Harder to figure out that, not a perfect sphere. But not too hard to figure out the internal volume and tweak the model until you get what you like.

Either way, it's going to be surprisingly small for much fuel it's gonna carry.

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------

Oh, I followed MAVEN's main tank specifications. I cheat like that. :lol:
 
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Nicholander

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I found an equation for the volume of a torus, it's:

vtorus = 19.739 * R * r2

where:

R = radius from the center of the hole to the center of the torus tube (m)
r = radius of the torus tube(m)

So, I suppose this will help. Keep in mind that the diameter of PADSL's main bus is 3 M, so the "R" parameter will have to be at least higher than 3 m.

(I'm not quite sure what "r" should be, maybe say 0.5 to 1.5 meters?)
 

ISProgram

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That would be dictated by the size of your launch vehicle fairing. Can't get wider than that, and PADSL is already 3 m across...
 

Nicholander

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Well, the Jarvis C has a fairing diameter of 8.38 meters, (I'm looking at the Jarvis PDF and it says that) so I don't think there's a problem with size.
 

K_Jameson

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External diameter. Let's say 7.5 meters of internal usable diameter (with security margins).
Jarvis C has also another fairing option, with 6.49 meters external diameter (about 5.5 meters internal usable diameter). Shakespeare/Pope will be launched into this fairing.
 

ISProgram

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First detailed post on VESPA, dealing with the initial mission information(?), should be up later today tomorrow.

Starting to give serious consideration towards a VESPA addon, but need to finish the "IPSA Launch Vehicles" addon first.

...a little OT, but can Anim8or implement UV mapping? :confused:
 
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Nicholander

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I'm pretty sure Anim8or can, but I'd recommend using 3D Wings first, since it is what I use. (I used this tutorial, and even though It's intended for KSP modding, it can be a great tool for learning 3D Wings in general!)
 

IronRain

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First detailed post on VESPA, dealing with the initial mission information(?), should be up later today.

Starting to give serious consideration towards a VESPA addon, but need to finish the "IPSA Launch Vehicles" addon first.

...a little OT, but can Anim8or implement UV mapping? :confused:

I'm pretty sure Anim8or can, but I'd recommend using 3D Wings first, since it is what I use. (I used this tutorial, and even though It's intended for KSP modding, it can be a great tool for learning 3D Wings in general!)

Or, what I do, mesh everything in anim8or and then UVmap it in Wings3D
 

ISProgram

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VESPA Post #1: Initial Mission Planning (First Steps)

VESPA all started because one day, I decided that Venus was underexplored and that I wanted my fictional space agency, the International Partnered Space Agenda (IPSA), to send a probe there.

With that in mind, I began the formal mission formulation by choosing a baseline launch vehicle. Since this was a IPSA mission, it was fairly obvious to me that only IPSA LVs would be used. For a payload in this mass class, IPSA has two; the Aquarius Block 1 (or just Aquarius B1) and the A-IIA (or Verseau) vehicle family.

At the time, the A-IIA was going through a redesign; so the baseline LV was chosen to be the Aquarius B1. Aquarius has a decent mass margin for any mission (Silverbird says it gets 50300 kg to LEO, but actual tests in Orbiter show that it can get up to 51000 kg to LEO); the LEO payload for the rocket is 51 mT in the standard “104” configuration (where the "1" means it's a Block 1 vehicle, the "0" represents the lack of any booster stages, and the "4" denotes the # of second stage engines). Additionally, the Aquarius B1 is planned to be in service AT LEAST from 2025-2038.

So now that a launch period had been set, I plugged my initial mission data intro Trajectory Browser. These are the results. Now, using Silverbird, I individually plugged each departure orbit parameter(s) into Silverbird, to determine how much the 104 could therefore send to Venus.

These are the results (rather than the “104”, this shows the performance of the “102” configuration, but that doesn't matter):

January 2028: 9,901 kg
October 2029: 11,076 kg
May 2031: 11,759 kg
December 2032: 12,062 kg
June 2034: 11,392 kg
January 2036: 10,361 kg
November 2037: 10,299 kg
June 2039: 11,573 kg

The largest probe(s) intended to have gone to another (near-Earth) planet was the Phobos-Grunt spacecraft, weighing over 13,200 kg when launched (though much of this mass was propellant for the Flagman upper stage, to depart LEO). Most probes are far below this limit; Cassini-Huygens, for example, weighs only 5,200 kg, but it is still one of the largest interplanetary probes launched.

Essentially, even the least optimal window is still has plenty of payload margin; for the purposes of the initial VESPA mission planning, the most optimal window was chosen:

picture.php


The result is the December 2032 window, which requires about 305 m/s of delta-V for the VOI burn in May 2033.

Next (detailed?) VESPA Post will focus on the s/c designs. :thumbup:
 
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K_Jameson

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Interesting post. Looking forward for the next post! I forgot: what is the combined weight of the two VESPA spacecrafts?
 

Nicholander

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Nice, ISProgram! By the way, I would like to point out that the insertion burn it shows only gets you to a C3 of zero, in other words, a TINY TINY bit below Venusian escape velocity. So that would have an insane apoapsis. So, you'd need to carry more fuel than that if you want your initial Venusian insertion orbit to be more reasonable. (Sorry if you already knew this)

Also, can someone run the numbers on how big a toroidal tank would have to be to contain my fuel? (Some of the stuff, including the equation, are in posts above)
 

ISProgram

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Interesting post. Looking forward for the next post! I forgot: what is the combined weight of the two VESPA spacecrafts?

Well, these post are detailing the very start of formulation VESPA, and the s/c design has changed quite a lot (more detail in the next one). The heaviest incarnation was the baselined version I started with in this thread; it weighs ~5000 kg at lunch. Note that it's not happening anymore (a couple of posts below the one linked), hence the existence of VESPA-O and VESPA-A.

The current spacecraft designs, as they are now (and still subject to change) have VESPA-O with a launch mass of 2,867 kg and a dry mass of 1,227 kg (this accounts for uncertainties in the mass of Giovanni; 315-400 kg)

VESPA-A...will mass more 2,000-3,000 kg, but that's all I'm certain of at the moment with it.

Nice, ISProgram! By the way, I would like to point out that the insertion burn it shows only gets you to a C3 of zero, in other words, a TINY TINY bit below Venusian escape velocity. So that would have an insane apoapsis. So, you'd need to carry more fuel than that if you want your initial Venusian insertion orbit to be more reasonable. (Sorry if you already knew this)

Also, can someone run the numbers on how big a toroidal tank would have to be to contain my fuel? (Some of the stuff, including the equation, are in posts above)

Actually I didn't. I assumed that the delta-V required for the insertion burn was calculated from the local planetary orbit of Venus, which I don't even understand. :lol: My assumption was to get as close as possible (~200 km altitude), burn the required delta-V, and whatever (elliptical) orbit I end up in, is my initial capture orbit. After that, aerobraking.

---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

First thing with regards to your second question: What launch vehicle is PADSL using?
 

Nicholander

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Like I said earlier, it's using the Jarvis C. (Which has an internal fairing diameter of 7.5 meters, or 5.5 meters if you're using the smaller version.)

Keep in mind the toroidal tank will carry 60% of the 4.8 tonnes of total fuel.
 

ISProgram

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Like I said earlier, it's using the Jarvis C. (Which has an internal fairing diameter of 7.5 meters, or 5.5 meters if you're using the smaller version.)

Keep in mind the toroidal tank will carry 60% of the 4.8 tonnes of total fuel.

Okay...thought the M-II Heavy was still an option. Anyhow, which fairing option are you going for? If I have a maximum diameter constraint, it would make the calculations/modeling easier.

I'm too lazy to hunt back through 8 pages of thread, so...how big is the heat shield?

Different mission concepts. PADSL is Nicholander's, it's a spacecraft which is to do in situ analysis of both of Mars' moons, Phobos and Deimos. Mine, VESPA, is a Venus orbiter which will drop a atmospheric probe into the...atmosphere.

VESPA-O's Giovanni miniprobe has a heat shield diameter of 1.5 m.

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------

Should I assume the toroidal tank has a common bulkhead?
 

TMac3000

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Okay...thought the M-II Heavy was still an option. Anyhow, which fairing option are you going for? If I have a maximum diameter constraint, it would make the calculations/modeling easier.



Different mission concepts. PADSL is Nicholander's, it's a spacecraft which is to do in situ analysis of both of Mars' moons, Phobos and Deimos. Mine, VESPA, is a Venus orbiter which will drop a atmospheric probe into the...atmosphere.

VESPA-O's Giovanni miniprobe has a heat shield diameter of 1.5 m.
VESPA is what I was talking about;)

This thread is pretty neat...but some of the talk is a bit over my head:p

I don't want to put down any planet as uninteresting--I got in a little trouble the last time I did that--but Venus is one I could never really get into. I've been there in Orbiter once (and only in orbit, never tried landing). It seems to me like just a hot rock that eats zillion-dollar spacecraft for lunch. It's like the closest thing the inner solar system has to a gas giant. I mean, man, Mercury is more hospitable in places.

The atmospheric probe is an interesting idea though. I wish you guys luck on this:tiphat:
 

ISProgram

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Well, my hunch preliminary appears to be right...

The drop tank appears to be able to carry over 4,000 kg of the prop mixture; you only need 2,880 kg. Anyhow, you could double-check if you want.

Diagram, so you can model it yourself:

HMYon0n.png


It requires you to use the 8.38 m fairing, but if the payload capability of the Jarvis is enough, you can carry more fuel and have more delta-V. The tank between the diagram and model is the 2.7 m main tanks, for comparison.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

VESPA is what I was talking about;)

Apologies, when I saw your post I looked at the one directly above it and assumed that you were wondering how big the heat shield must be to have to fit in a fairing of that size...

'cause only one 5 m heatshield exists, and it's on (or was) Orion...:lol:
 

Nicholander

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To me at least, it seems quite oversized, almost looking like a centrifuge ring. But, if it works it works, and that's good enough for me. So, now that we got the tank size settled, I suppose I can start working on the model.

(I would like to note though, that it seems like I'll have to create 3 models: PADSL with the drop tank, PADSL with no drop tanks, and the jettisoned drop tanks itself. That seems like quite a bit of work, because I can't just combine the drop tank and PADSL together, the PADSL w/ drop tanks has to have it's own .msh and UV Map, and I know that drop tanks is going to be a real pain to UV map, especially when It also has to have PADSL too in the UV map)
 
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