Poll A question of word usage.

[Linguofreak]

Since I'm minoring in Linguistics, and have had an interest in it going back to my high school years, I tend to take great interest unfamiliar ways of speaking when they pop up around me.

The unfamiliar way of speaking that has popped up today is the direct combination of the word "my" with the name of a piece of software. I first noticed this either on the M6 forums or early on on Orbiter Forum in the speech of rather new members referring to "My Orbiter". I passed it off as an error made by people who didn't speak English too well. But recently I have noticed it in more professional language, such as the sites of software companies (in the User Support/Help area where problems are often cast in the first person "How do I get my Skype to do XYZ?" for instance), and tonight, I even noticed that Martin used it in his post opening up the Windows woes thread ("My Windows").

So obviously there are a fair number native English speakers to which it sounds quite natural, and, as is taught in Ling 101, if native speakers actually use it, it isn't an error, as I had originally thought it was.

So now the linguist in me is asking questions: How many people use this construction? Of those that don't, to how many does it sound natural, and to how many does it sound odd (as it does for me)? What restrictions does it have (eg, can it be used for the titles of books: "My War and Peace" etc, or not)?

I personally only use the phrase "my copy of XYZ," and never "my XYZ." Am I part of a minority?

 

[insanity]

I use the construction in regards to a state and only in informal speech. Some examples:

My windows is XP SP2.
My Orbiter has the DGIV installed.
My War and Peace is missing.

In formal speech I use the my copy of... construction.

 

[TSPenguin]

I absolutely concur with insanity.

 

[Unstung]

"My copy of XYZ" is proper English, unlike "My XYZ." (At least I think so.) But "My XYZ" is commonly used.

 

[Linguofreak]

I use the construction in regards to a state and only in informal speech. Some examples:

My windows is XP SP2.
My Orbiter has the DGIV installed.
My War and Peace is missing.

So even in informal speech, you wouldn't say "My Windows 95 crashes every two hours."?

---------- Post added at 03:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 AM ----------

"My copy of XYZ" is proper English, unlike "My XYZ." (At least I think so.) But "My XYZ" is commonly used.

Well for Linguists, "sounds natural among some group or other of native speakers" = "Proper".

There tends to be a lot of animosity between Linguists and English teachers on account of that. Especially between me and my English teachers, since I tend to be philosophically absolutist and linguistically relativist, while English teachers tend to be philosophically relativist and linguistically absolutist. Oh the joy.

 

[Andy44]

I am trying to remember but I don't think I've ever used "my Orbiter"...

 

[mjanicki]

Interesting observation. I had to think about how I use "my" when talking about software.

I will typically refer to "my install(ation) of Orbiter/whatever," but I can't think of a time I've used just "my Orbiter/whatever." The closest I come is when differentiating between one of my computers. I will refer to "my Windows machine" or "my Linux box." But, here "my" refers to the machine itself and not the software/OS the machine is running.

Just reading "my Windows" in the earlier post feels akward to me, so I can't imagine I use similar expressions very often.

-- Mike

 

[Star Voyager]

I use this phrase very rarely, only when I am specifying and addon that I have. But for the most part, I just say "On Orbiter...".

 

[James Cloninge]

What you are running into, Linguofreak, is the use of "my" as a weak possessive adjective. Specifically, it functions as a "possesive determiner", which is in the same class of determiners as "which, who, each" etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determiner_(class)

But, what you are dealing with is an implied subject which is omitted because the listener fills in the missing detail. English isn't a "pro-drop" language, per se, but often the subject may be dropped, especially in beginnings of sentences, and that's sort of what you are seeing here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-drop_language#English

Yes, technically, "My (copy of) Orbiter" is incomplete, but in rapid speech, what can be implied is often dropped.

I'm sure in German, there are clitics and elisions that native speakers do that aren't "by the book". I think the dative case in German is losing ground, if I'm not mistaken.

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

<i>So even in informal speech, you wouldn't say "My Windows 95 crashes every two hours."?</i>

Oh, I would use "My windows crashes every two hours". I wouldn't say "95" unless I wanted to specify which particular version I have.

<i> (eg, can it be used for the titles of books: "My War and Peace" etc, or not)</i>

Sure. The native speaker will understand and fill in: "My (copy of the book) War And Peace". You can see this construction in just about any phrase where "copy of xxx" would be used:

My (copy of the movie) "Star Trek" (dvd) is missing!"

The only restriction I can think of is not to insert a definite or indefinite article before the object:

My *the Windows

 

[Linguofreak]

Well, I'm not actually German. I just happen to be doing an exchange year in Germany this year (that German flag was a US flag a month ago, and you'll notice that I still have the Colorado flag (where I grew up, but not where I most recently lived in the states, which is Texas). I need more flag spots than Orbiter offers. One for the US, one for Canada (where I was born), one for Germany, one for Colorado, and one for Texas)

I'm not quite sure I agree that we're seeing a subject drop here. I think it's more that "Orbiter" for me is a mass noun referring to all copies of Orbiter as a group, whereas for others it is valid (at least in certain situations, depending on the person) as a count noun referring to a specific copy.

Analogous situations turn up with "bread" and "water". In English bread is a mass noun, so you need to say "a loaf of bread", but in some languages (German, I believe Spanish as well, and I've definitely heard it in the English of native English/Spanish bilinguals), bread is a count noun, and you can say "a bread".

And even in English, if you're in a restaurant you can say, "I'll have a water" or "We'll have two waters, please," even though water in English is normally a mass noun, and mass nouns do not take indefinite articles (a water), numbers (two waters), or pluralization (two waters).

What we're seeing is a mass noun being turned in to a count noun, and I'm not used to the titles of books or software being used as count nouns.

---------- Post added at 04:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------

[/COLOR]<i>So even in informal speech, you wouldn't say "My Windows 95 crashes every two hours."?</i>

Oh, I would use "My windows crashes every two hours". I wouldn't say "95" unless I wanted to specify which particular version I have.

Well, I was specifying 95 to be scrupulously fair to Microsoft, because whereas 9x crashed every two hours, XP (and the NT line in general) does not. For all that I do not like Microsoft, I'm willing to admit this.

<i> (eg, can it be used for the titles of books: "My War and Peace" etc, or not)</i>

Sure. The native speaker will understand and fill in: "My (copy of the book) War And Peace".

Yes, and as a native speaker I am capable of filling it in quite well. My question is whether it sounds *natural* to other native speakers (it doesn't to me).

You can see this construction in just about any phrase where "copy of xxx" would be used:

My (copy of the movie) "Star Trek" (dvd) is missing!"

The only restriction I can think of is not to insert a definite or indefinite article before the object:

My *the Windows

This is for two reasons: One, because "the" can never follow a possessive English, and two, because proper nouns can't take a definite article, unless that article is part of their name, as in "The United States" or "The Dallas Morning News".

 

[Andy44]

There was an episode of South Park last year in which a Grapes of Wrath-style situation arises after the town's internet connections all die.

Randy Marsh packs up his family to head for California, where rumors say that "there must be some internet there".

 

[kneejo]

I tend to use 'my illegal copy of.. ' rather than 'my copy of..' oh, no.. Orbiter is free..

but english is not my first language anyway.. it's a second language, however I have been spending about 7 years talking mostly english with my fellow students and a girlfriend I dated for a couple of years. plus I have been on the internet for years now, and that's mainly english sites.. 'what, you don't have any friends?' not real ones.. the kind that care.. they all left me probably because they thought I was possessed, speaking half english / half dutch, just because my mind was capable of doing that. Language is just language, a way to communicate thoughts. Telepathy would make language as we know it unnecessary, but we still need it because most of us cannot control their thoughts and would hurt people by simply thinking about them. And there are no laws, yet, that prevent spiritual harassment.. not in this world/life at least.

 

[tblaxland]

"Orbiter" for me is a mass noun referring to all copies of Orbiter as a group

That is how I would normally use it.

for others it is valid (at least in certain situations, depending on the person) as a count noun referring to a specific copy.

I would not normally use it in that context, but I can understand it and it sounds fine.

you can say "a bread".

Now that definitely sounds weird. I don't know the correct linguistic term for it but, for me, "bread" needs some sort of qualifier, maybe because there are so many different types, eg, "a bread roll", "a loaf of bread", "a rye bread" (normally comes in loaves, so the "loaf" can be dropped).

And even in English, if you're in a restaurant you can say, "I'll have a water" or "We'll have two waters, please,"

Those sound OK to me, although I wouldn't normally that form. I normally use "a glass/bottle of water" or "two glasses/bottles of water". Maybe because you don't care what type of container it comes in?

 

[Hielor]

My Sharona.
</thread>

 

[jedidia]

I think the dative case in German is losing ground, if I'm not mistaken.

No, the genitive is loosing ground in favour of the dative. While Genetive had it's fair share in common speach some 20 years ago, you barely hear it anymore nowadays (I blame it on the swiss, since swiss german never really had a genitive and uses dative instead... ) anyways, OT.

to me, "my windows", "my Orbiter", "my XYZ" implies "my copy of", or "my version of", but I'm not native. in swiss german, we don't have the construction, becuase we use - guess what - a dative, which is not really transferable to english (turns out to something like "windows at myself").

One reason why this seems natural to me might be because I also speak bosnian, which is an absolute pro-drop language, where the subject can be dropped even in proper literature, and in rapid speach there are even cases where you can drop the object... (you can have a sentence that consists solely of a verb... I just love the language! )

 

[martins]

I even noticed that Martin used it in his post opening up the Windows woes thread ("My Windows").

So obviously there are a fair number native English speakers to which it sounds quite natural, and, as is taught in Ling 101, if native speakers actually use it, it isn't an error, as I had originally thought it was.

I am no native English speaker of ze Englisch language so I am refusing any responsibility regarding my use of it .

In any case, in the above example I wanted to emphasise that I was talking about the specific windows installation on my laptop, rather than implying a general problem with windows. Most installations are highly customised, so 'my windows' may not necessarily behave like anybody else's (and apparently it doesn't).

 

[Linguofreak]

In which case I would use "my copy of Windows" or "my install of Windows". But I'm pretty sure I have seen the construction "My XYZ" on the site of some major software package. I think it was Skype.

 

[Ghostrider]

I could only use the term "my orbiter" if I were filthy rich and could affort a STS vehicle.

 

[Linguofreak]

Now that definitely sounds weird. I don't know the correct linguistic term for it but, for me, "bread" needs some sort of qualifier, maybe because there are so many different types, eg, "a bread roll", "a loaf of bread", "a rye bread" (normally comes in loaves, so the "loaf" can be dropped).

The term for it is that bread is a "mass noun" and thus a particular piece of bread needs a word like "a piece," "a rol,l" or "a loaf" to set it off from the rest of the bread in the world. The only native English speakers I've heard use that construction are one who also happen to be native Spanish speakers.

Those sound OK to me, although I wouldn't normally that form. I normally use "a glass/bottle of water" or "two glasses/bottles of water". Maybe because you don't care what type of container it comes in?

I'd only use it when ordering water in a restaurant, or in a similar situation. Normally I would say "a glass of water."

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

No, the genitive is loosing ground in favour of the dative. While Genetive had it's fair share in common speach some 20 years ago, you barely hear it anymore nowadays (I blame it on the swiss, since swiss german never really had a genitive and uses dative instead... ) anyways, OT.

to me, "my windows", "my Orbiter", "my XYZ" implies "my copy of", or "my version of", but I'm not native. in swiss german, we don't have the construction, becuase we use - guess what - a dative, which is not really transferable to english (turns out to something like "windows at myself").

So would that be "Windows bei mir"?

One reason why this seems natural to me might be because I also speak bosnian, which is an absolute pro-drop language, where the subject can be dropped even in proper literature, and in rapid speach there are even cases where you can drop the object... (you can have a sentence that consists solely of a verb... I just love the language! )

As I said to James Cloninge, I don't think it has much to do with pro-drop.

As far as pro/anti-drop and one word sentences: English is pro drop with regards to commands (in fact, it enforces* subject dropping in commands), but fairly strictly anti-drop otherwise. But you can still get a verb-only sentence if you make a command out of an intransitive verb (one that can't take an object), e.g. "Stop!"

Japanese, OTOH, is aggressively pro-drop.


*It may appear at first glance that a construction like "You! Stop!" is a counterexample to this. But when the person a command is given to is addressed in a command, we find that there is a pause between the address and the command, which is usually indicated in writing by a sentence-ending punctuation mark. Therefore I would argue that this address is not the subject of the command verb.

 

[jedidia]

So would that be "Windows bei mir"?

pretty much. Just that you'd turn it around in the sentence, "bei mir stürtzt windows immer ab", or "bi mer stürzts windows immer ab" as you would write it in swiss german (allthough that's heavily depending on the dialect, which is why swiss german is not officialy a written language. We could never agree on a common orthography :lol