Delta Glider - How could it be built for real?

garyw

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Ideas are fine but I have a worrying concern that communist thinks that it is possible to build the delta-glider for real himself.

It can't. Not without a breakthrough in propulsion physics, energy storage, material strength & flexibility and thermal protection.
 

Urwumpe

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I was just tossing around Ideas.

Then toss around better ideas. I could suggest just cup holders for it and have done a more constructive contribution that way.
 

insanity

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A project like this would require the kind of money that would make Bill Gates panic.

Not only would you have to make huge leaps forward in material science and aerospace engineering, you'd need to get the education to do it, the facilities to handle it, a crew to build it, an idiot to test it, and all the associated costs with setting up and maintaining these things. It's not cheap to bend the laws of physics.
 

T.Neo

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Short answer: no, you cannot build a DeltaGlider.

The main reason centers on the propulsion system. The engines just put out way too much thrust at far too high an exhaust velocity for their size. While certain fusion engines, for example, could match this thrust, they would have to be 10-30 times the size portrayed.

Several other engine concepts could match this performance too, such as a open gas core nuclear thermal rocket, or a nuclear salt water rocket. Both of these would be very environmentally unsound, as they would release radioactive waste into the environment (though the gas core probably less so). These engines would probably also be larger and more massive than portrayed in the DeltaGlider.

Heat dissapation from the nozzles is also a problem. The heat encountered by the engine would likely vapourise it very quickly. This is why fusion engines use magnetic nozzles, instead of physical ones; thrust is contained by a magnetic field, and heat escapes through the framework. A magnetic field can't melt or vaporise.

Engines that dump waste heat into the exhaust, however, like a GCNR or NSWR could possibly get away with physical nozzles.

Something often said of the Deltaglider's engines is that they would "vaporise the spaceport" or "leave a kilometer wide crater". I personally find this hard to believe. Without any calculations on the destructiveness of the engines, I'd bet that the destruction would be far smaller in scale.

Solid calculations on the destructiveness of high performance engines seem to be mostly missing, despite it being brought up in things like Jon's Law and the Kzinti Lesson. Nevertheless, if the engines are spewing radioactive waste- or still fissioning uranium salts, the physical destruction caused by the engines would pail into insignificance compared to the ecological damage.

I also find some of the other aspects of the DeltaGlider's design shaky. It supposedly carries 12900 kg of fuel in the main tanks. If the propellant was slushed hydrogen, it would need 151.7 cubic meters. If it were water, it would need 12.9 cubic meters. I doubt that it would be able to accomodate the former within the main body, but the latter should be accomodated easily. Wing tanks could potentially provide more volume, but installing insulation and cooling throughout the wing would be troublesome. The available volume in the main body would drop if a portion of it were taken up by a cargo bay, for example.

That doesn't even cover things like the TPS. Presumably such a vehicle would be covered in ceramic tiles and thermal blankets.

The long answer; :lol:

A 5 person orbital spaceplane to be lifted on a conventional launch vehicle- or more remotely an airbreathing vehicle, is very possible (there have even been small spaceplane projects such as HERMES). The only main thrusters the craft would posess would be some sort of OMS.

A nuclear powered SSTO shuttle with surprising performance might also be possible, though it would require plenty of development and PR. Presumably a more environmentally friendly engine; such as a closed gas core design or a solid core NTR would be used. The craft will be undoubtedly larger than the DG, mostly due to the fact that it will actually have to carry propellant. Nevertheless it would have a greatly reduced mass fraction compared to a chemical SSTO.

There are also regions where the DG has been designed for gameplay rather than engineering reality. The frontal docking port and airlock would probably be merged with the top hatch, for example. Retro engines have no use; them and their doors just add mass. If hovers were absolutely vital, the rear engine nozzles could be gimballed to save the extra mass and complexity of rear hover engines. The radiator on the DG is probably also far too small. The rear RCS would have to be redesigned as to not damage the rear vertical stabilisers.

The only way I can see a delta-glider being built for 'real' is to have a wood mock up in the back garden.

I agree- it would be pretty awesome, too. :cheers:

That, or an RC model like RisingFury's. :thumbup:
 
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RisingFury

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that is a good proposal


You do know that every launcher, capsule and space craft in existence cost like hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of thousands of people and still took years to design and build. You do know that, right?

And those people actually know what they were doing...


You know... it took me like 270 hours to design and build my RC DGIV and it cost me like 600€ if I include all building material, batteries, servos, motors and speed control. And I actually knew what I was doing. I built a free flying model and a trainer plane before. I actually have experience in building models...

Now... you're playing around in Orbiter and you think you'll just build an orbital rocket in your back yard?!
 
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Sky Captain

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Closest thing to Delta Glider in real life is probably going to be the Skylon spaceplane if it gets built and it is the size of large jetliner. Something as small as Delta Glider could never carry enough fuel to be SSTO craft.

With some sort of highly advanced air breathing engines that can operate up to nearly orbital speed in airbreathing mode powered by nuclear energy it might be possible to build something that is SSTO and is roughly the size of Delta Glider. However we are looooong way from actually building such engines.
 

TMac3000

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The space shuttle could theoretically take off from a runway if not for the size of the external tank.

Though of course it could not reach orbit on its own without the SRBs:(
 

garyw

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to do what exactly? the shape doesn't lead itself to having turbofans installed.
 

supersonic

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We could always launch sorta like the space shuttle. With LRBs instead of SRBs.
LRBs are a really bad idea, the reason the shuttle didn't use them was because they are really heavy and, they sink, not really good when you have to drop them in the Atlantic, SRBs however, are much lighter.
 

jedidia

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I'd suggest that you go looking for people to participate in such a project on Universities and in Airplane engineering firms, and maybe have a look if some of the engineers at NASA is looking for a new job. And you better have your funding papers and budget plans ready when you do that, or noone will listen to you.

Really, you shouldn't waste your time searching for highly qualified workers on a web-forum if you're serious with this.
 

garyw

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LRBs are a really bad idea, the reason the shuttle didn't use them was because they are really heavy and, they sink, not really good when you have to drop them in the Atlantic, SRBs however, are much lighter.

LRB's can be recovered via parachutes.

The actual answer is to do with the difference between LRB and SRB's. SRB's are fireworks, once burnt out they are empty metal tubes. LRB's have a lot more moving parts. Dumping them in salt water corrodes the moving parts making it much more expensive to reuse.
 
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FarOutInFernley

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this thread is interesting....theres nothing wrong with dreaming. What id like to know if any "technical manuals" besides whats in the DG's pdf manual have been created describing the physics and inner workings of the spacecraft? Main purpose being to furthur the realism and to spark such threads as this one?
 

communist

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this thread is interesting....theres nothing wrong with dreaming. What id like to know if any "technical manuals" besides whats in the DG's pdf manual have been created describing the physics and inner workings of the spacecraft? Main purpose being to furthur the realism and to spark such threads as this one?
i agree the DGIV manual lists the exact dimentions of the DGIV
that is a good bet on building the craft,
or atleast trying
 

T.Neo

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this thread is interesting....theres nothing wrong with dreaming. What id like to know if any "technical manuals" besides whats in the DG's pdf manual have been created describing the physics and inner workings of the spacecraft? Main purpose being to furthur the realism and to spark such threads as this one?

Uh... yeah. I'd love to see the details of how the coolant feed for the monopole membrane interfaces with the handwavion accelerator.

I think "addon backstories" are a good idea, but I don't see how they're applicable to something like the Deltaglider for anything more than a bit of fun and a laugh- kind of like the Star Wars Cross Sections (brilliant books IMO).

i agree the DGIV manual lists the exact dimentions of the DGIV
that is a good bet on building the craft,

That is not how you build things. You need to figure out the dimensions of each and every component, by designing them- not at all an easy task, even for people who know what they're doing. And in a spacecraft or aircraft you can have many thousands of components.

And then you have to make the parts, which is not at all an easy feat...
 
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RisingFury

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Here. I'll stop being cynical for a moment and actually help you out.

Here are my AutoCAD plans for the RC DGIV. It's somewhat incomplete and on the fly because I knew what I was building and my mind could fill in the blanks. Still took me around 10 hours to draw them. They're not 100% accurate. I rounded off a few dimensions to simplify the build.

DeltaGliderIVPlan.jpg


Blueprint:
http://www.unrealaddicts.com/forums/Janez/DeltaGliderIV/DeltaGliderIV.dwg
 

george7378

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I've always wondered how a single-stage to orbit launch would go - the Shuttle has to be prepared, strapped together, fuelled and transported in a vertical position out to the pad, where a very precise launch program guides it to orbit in a specific amount of time. Would an SSTO launch take as much preparation and accuracy, or would it simply be checked, fuelled and taxi out to the runway where it is flown 'stick and rudder' like a normal plane?

As for launching the DG, as people have said before, I think a second thrust source like the SCRAMjets and similar would be needed. I also like the idea of a single stage rocket to give it a little push before lighting up the DG's thrusters:

[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4402"]Delta Glider IV with SRB Launcher[/ame]
 

T.Neo

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Would an SSTO launch take as much preparation and accuracy, or would it simply be checked, fuelled and taxi out to the runway where it is flown 'stick and rudder' like a normal plane?

Accuracy is important if you're trying to get into a specific orbit, and also when you have a very small margin for error.

Flying the craft to orbit manually might be possible... manned vehicles such as STS have provision for this, and Orbiter shows that such a task is possible even for novices. AFAIK SS1 and SS2 use manual control primarily, but they are suborbital.

Preparation costs wouldn't disappear with an SSTO. You still need to maintain such a craft, and this could be a nightmare like with STS...
 
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