Heavy fighting in South Ossetia.

[eveningsky339]

In theory, yes. In practice, the Olympics are a joke.

Especially when everyone has the bright idea to stage the games in the middle of one of the dirtiest cities in the world...

 

[GregBurch]

Especially when everyone has the bright idea to stage the games in the middle of one of the dirtiest cities in the world...

Are you speaking from experience? I have to ask, because I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in Beijing. It is absolutely, positively NOT "one of the dirtiest cities in the world."

Wanna see a "dirty city"? go to Mumbai or Mexico City.

 

[Urwumpe]

The smog I see in TV there does not look too healthy though.

 

[simonpro]

Are you speaking from experience? I have to ask, because I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in Beijing. It is absolutely, positively NOT "one of the dirtiest cities in the world."

I agree, it's another thing where the western media is making a tremendous fuss over something that isn't that bad. I don't know whether they're doing it because they want to make things more "dramatic" or because they want to push China a bit, either way its incredibly annoying.

I count 12 here:

The USN only has 11 carriers, so I'm not sure how they can have 12 strike groups..

 

[GregBurch]

There are two points about the "smog". First, the city isn't "dirty," as was said above. My wife's a notorious clean freak, and the first time she came to Beijing, she commented on how clean the city was. In fact, compared to lots of cities in the developing world I've been in, Beijing may be the "cleanest" I've seen, in the sense that there's no garbage lying around, no bad smells, etc., and has been for a LOOOONG time.

Second, Beijing has a lot of natural dust in the air. If the wind blows from basically any direction but due east-southeast, it carries fine dust from the Gobi desert. This gets backed up against the mountains that surround the city on two-and-a-half sides and the air can get pretty thick on some days -- wholly apart from industrial pollution.

Now, there IS industrial pollution in Beijing, as there is in all of China's cities. but over the last couple of years, a lot of progress has been made. The last day I was there, a couple of weeks ago, traffic regulations were going into effect for the duration of the Olympics, that allowed cars to operate only on every other day, according to license plate odd or even number last digits. I'd say half or more of the days on my last trip there were clear and sunny.

 

[mrspacely]

back on the topic of the Georgia conflict...

the civilian deaths in Georgia are appalling.. everyone makes a huge fuss when a stray F-16 retard hits an Iraqi civilian home killing 4 people, while Russia is already nearing 2000 civilian deaths. this is just like the start of the game 'Ghost Recon'.

well, at least Russia is making China look good for its Olympics.

i really hope this doesnt turn into an ugly '2nd Iraq' and further, i hope US involvement stays minimal. the last thing we need is dwindling relations with Russia as that puppet Medvedev gains power alongside his butt-buddy Putin.

cmon how about a 50-mile asteroid to cure ALL of humanities problems..

 

[Native Son]

I don't know what you study for that, but the statistics of the the activities in Afghanistan or Iraq actually show that the US Army is far away from high effectivity. The reports are sounding more like the troops are often suffering from friction - Some people might even think, friendly fire is a US invention. Or that all efforts and good payment are not helping to keep the moral of the US soldiers high when deployed far away from home.

Friendly fire is a fact of war. My brother was bombed three times by Dutch F-16's in Afghanistan....luckily, none of them could drop a 500 pounder for what's that worth. But then again, the National Guard has shot at my brother multiple times....once in close vicinity of an American base. But for one to say friendly fire is an American invention, then it is a revelation about one's ignorance

I would, for the sake of the soldiers of your country, remember that you have not fought a regular army since 1991. The air strikes on Serbia not taken in account, which had been no show case of US superiority. You have no evidence, that the US army is fighting better in real combat situations as in training or against irregular troops

.

Real combat situations? How is ambushes on convoys, IED's, snipers, urban guerrilla warfare, terrorist strongholds, etc. not real combat situations. Tell me how. The American military is getting the best kind of training: real combat experience. In the future, the Pentagon will be must better prepared in similar situations in the future.

And last time I checked...America last fought a regular army in 2003. In fact, it crumbled so fast, our beloved President declared the end of major combat operations with a month. Who knew that the real challenge would have been guerrilla warfare?

I would say, that even Georgian troops would be a major challenge for US troops, unless you have a clear superiority. By effectivity alone, you won't win a battle and should not rely on it. You can't rely on special forces and veteran units alone - the bulk of your fighting units will be regular units.

Do you have any evidence to support what you are saying?

The USA have a huge club with their army. But I would say, they have neither the will to do use it nor the understanding where to use it. And it will not get better, as better equipment (as the last ten years show) is no replacement for deficits in training.

There is no better replacement for training deficits than real combat...or so history has told.


-----Posted Added-----

I agree, it's another thing where the western media is making a tremendous fuss over something that isn't that bad. I don't know whether they're doing it because they want to make things more "dramatic" or because they want to push China a bit, either way its incredibly annoying.

I have also noticed such unfair animosity toward China in the media ...particularly the BBC. Quite ridiculous.

 

[GregBurch]

I have also noticed such unfair animosity toward China in the media ...particularly the BBC. Quite ridiculous.

Well, there's a story there. back in '95-96, in the lead-up to Hong Kong's re-accession to the PRC, the BBC didn't "follow the rules" about how coverage could be conducted and what was and wasn't appropriate language to use when criticizing Beijing. As a result, the Beeb got cut off from all contact with PRC government officials, a ban that goes on to this day. And to this day, the BBC web site is blocked by the "Great Firewall;" even though you can get rabidly right-wing stuff on the net in China without any interference. Which is kind of ironic, since you apparently don't get to work for the BBC unless you're a true-blue, errh, I mean, true red, America-hating commie.

 

[Native Son]

Well, there's a story there. back in '95-96, in the lead-up to Hong Kong's re-accession to the PRC, the BBC didn't "follow the rules" about how coverage could be conducted and what was and wasn't appropriate language to use when criticizing Beijing. As a result, the Beeb got cut off from all contact with PRC government officials, a ban that goes on to this day. And to this day, the BBC web site is blocked by the "Great Firewall;" even though you can get rabidly right-wing stuff on the net in China without any interference. Which is kind of ironic, since you apparently don't get to work for the BBC unless you're a true-blue, errh, I mean, true red, America-hating commie.

I've heard they blocked BBC, but I actually never knew the reason why. Thanks :speakcool:

 

[mrspacely]

this thread is going all over the place. hello? isnt there a freakin war erupting in Georgia? make a China thread... when i go to this topic i want to know more of people opinions ON THE SAME topic... sorry, just irritated a bit. developing conflicts stress me out, i really feel for people in such ****ty situations, when im in a pretty decent situation.

 

[GregBurch]

this thread is going all over the place.

... sort of like life, huh?

 

[mrspacely]

yeah but at least on this forum we have the ability to maintain order and organization.

 

[simonpro]

Friendly fire is a fact of war. My brother was bombed three times by Dutch F-16's in Afghanistan....luckily, none of them could drop a 500 pounder for what's that worth. But then again, the National Guard has shot at my brother multiple times....once in close vicinity of an American base. But for one to say friendly fire is an American invention, then it is a revelation about one's ignoranc

Unfortunately, based on case statistics, F.F is primarily an American issue. More Americans (per thousand) are injured by F.F and (based on what I know by one of the commanders of ISAF) I'd be willing to bet that more incidents of F.F are caused by Americans.
I don't know why this is, but it's definitely the case.

Real combat situations? How is ambushes on convoys, IED's, snipers, urban guerrilla warfare, terrorist strongholds, etc. not real combat situations. Tell me how. The American military is getting the best kind of training: real combat experience. In the future, the Pentagon will be must better prepared in similar situations in the future.

He was meaning a combat situation against a well trained and professionally trained army. What's happening in Iraq at the moment is more comparable to an armed militia.
Still, the last time the US army faced such an enemy was, as you suggest, 2003.



My opinion on the American Army is that it is very well trained and very well equipped. However, I think that they are lacking when it comes to unexpected situations, and that they rely too heavily on air support. When confronting an enemy they know about and have trained for then they are superb. When confronting tactics that are unfamiliar to them (such as Iraq, or if the Soviets had not used their expected tactics) then the US Army is distinctly average.
Still, that's just my opinion based on what little I've seen of them on combat operations. I'm willing to change my mind if I ever see anything to suggest I'm wrong.


-----Posted Added-----


And on the issue of threads going all over the place, I like it this way. It's more like a conversation instead of feeling like a sterile office meeting where only one topic can be discussed.

 

[mrspacely]

And on the issue of threads going all over the place, I like it this way. It's more like a conversation instead of feeling like a sterile office meeting where only one topic can be discussed.

when can i leave earth

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't count the Iraq invasion of 2003 as regular army, because the Iraq republican army was already in a very bad shape after the second gulf war, from which it had no possibility to recover. The chain of command was already broken, not only by the continued US bombing after 1991, but also by other causes.

The US troops had been more than enough for defeating the Iraqi troops, but just not enough for stabilizing and holding the country - thats why you still have irregular troops attacking the USA five years later.

I mean, just look at the "battles" of this invasion. 140 KIA on the US side, and that mostly by friendly fire or initial insurgency. The Iraqi army would have caused more damage to the US, if they decided to take a break and make holidays. And would have prevented 13500-45000 death on their side. Still, the 375000 soldier strength published on Iraq before the invasion is a pretty flawed number.

If you would assume that only 20% of the Iraqi troops who died saw battle, it means that maximal 225000 had been deployed. And as only about 8000 are reported to have died in direct action of the US, it would be even less (maximal 40,000 soldier).

I don't call that an organized regular army - it was an army which was already disintegrating before the US attacked.

 

[Moonwalker]

I think that friendly fire might be linked to the intake of "Go-Pills" like Dexedrine. Or in other words: to amphetamine intake generally because the use of drugs by American pilots and soldiers is an open secret.

I also get the impression that a lot of US soliders are too young and less educated to be send into war. That in combination with amphetamine intake can turn innocent young people into killer-machines. There seem to be a lot of morons within the US army. Just watch "Farenheit 9/11 Part 8 of 12" on Youtube. I don't really want to post the link here. And no, this certainly is not just made by Michael Moore. There are enough videos (even more perversely as Farenheit 9/11) uploaded to the web by US soldiers.

 

[Xantcha]

Just checked few articles at nytimes alot of funny stuff, z.b:

Alexander Lomaya, secretary of Georgia’s National Security Council, said the conflict arose because Russia sought to “thwart its neighbors’ movement toward Western society and Western values.”

“Russia has clearly decided to redraw the borders of the Eastern Europe map of the post-cold war situation,” Mr. Lomaya said. “If the world is not able to stop Russia here, then Russian tanks and Russian paratroopers can appear in every European capital.”

Ho-ho another russophobia wave on the rise!

Looks like Georgia have a very good start in PR warfare. I can only hope that that actual warfare will be more successful than diplomatic one, or else I lose hope for this here country.

Oh, and nobody cares about osetians, too bad for them

 

[Urwumpe]

Xantcha: So it is no problem for you, or the rest of your nation, if Georgia becomes NATO member?

I have strong doubts there is any side involved in the conflict which can claim to be only a victim. Just look at the Ossetians, who have the majority of their territory (North Ossetia) inside Russia, without even rebelling a bit for autonomy there. It is only about the small part South Ossetia.

And what is the difference between South Ossetia and North Ossetia? In North Ossetia, there is no Ossetian culture anymore after a long time for being part of the central part of the USSR, while it was protected in South Ossetia. Maybe a historic mistake...

EDIT: And what front line do we also have: The rebelling people in the region, which Russia supports, are dominantly Muslim, while Georgia is dominantly Christian-orthodox...

 

[Eagle]

Doesn't look to be calming down much. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/w...&bl&ei=5087&en=d1e8c093fe19df1b&ex=1218427200

I would agree that Georgia is winning the PR battle for now. I really have now clue how this will turn out.

I think we may see an all out war finishing with Russian annexation of South Ossetia. Though, Georgia may have a few tricks up her sleeve.

 

[Hartmann]

the olympic games are used as a smoke screen.

perhaps this war have another side effect , for example ,difficult a possible attack to Iran. a lot more difficult now.