New Release Interplanetary Modular Spacecraft RC9

PeterRoss

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Well, don't forget that Zarya had its solars deployed from the very first stage of ISS construction. Another thing is that Zarya has RCS as well which allowed ISS to keep its attitude all the time. We had in plans to allow CMs to have their own RCS or gyros, but never managed to make it in time. These features are listed in todo list for further updates now, and I simply launch a tug together with CM for its attitude keeping before vessel's RCS is assembled.
 

Grover

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well CMGs would certainly make station attitude easier to keep. and an autopilot that could hold sun-relative attitude would also be priceless.

im now done with inanimate trusses, now i'm onto some moving parts, might start with some lovely solar panels... right after i work out some station configurations and required power outputs etc...

later folks!
 

jedidia

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but the SSB modules are rather low-poly

Ummm no, they really aren't. Especially considering that most of their polies are invisible once stuff is put together. If I remember correctly, the typical SSBB hab module has somewhere around 4000 faces (the ones with windows have a lot more). For a reference, your average X3 reunion model has about 25000. So if you put six modules together, you already have the same polycount, and most of them will be invisible. .

Now the catch of course is, what is something really intended for. For most people, it's the process of actually building something, not using it once it's done, so the excessive poly count is ok, as you'll probably be looking more at the unintegrated modules than at the integrated ones.
Yet there are other people (like me) for which building is more kind of a nuisance, and mostly want to play around with what they built. For those, Gregs modules are terribly uneconomic. If I'll ever release a module galery of my own, it'll probably be below 200 faces for a hab module. A 12-sided cylinder with three segments, plus front and rear side, makes 120 faces. If it really needs it I'd throw in the outside of a docking ring (with a flat front), which would produce me another 48 faces. Modeling outside and inside of a docking ring would raise the total count needed for the rings to 144, 96 of which would be invisible once docked. Acceptable as a compromise, but I'd not go higher than that.
After those ten minutes for the mesh I'd open photoshop and fiddle the texture for ten hours...

But as I said, higher polycounts can make sense if the modules are mostly intended for building. If the built station/vessel is intended to be used with other stuff (say, you use your station as a shipyard), the framerate will soon start to drop through the floor if things start to get large. At least on older machines. People with a powerful GPU can still go pretty wild...

Now that I think about it, it might actually make sense to build in the option to specify a different mesh for the integrated module in the config. Wouldn't be difficult, really.

im thinking about some supplementary panels to be bolted onto the top of a module to provide enough power to host a few crew members (power for critical modules and life support), or simply to run enough systems to keep the station powered and maintaining its own temperature (we dont want our first crew arriving to find that the electrical systems have frozen up and nothing will start up)

That's pretty much the way the ISS did it, really. It was operational and capable of supporting a crew after the first few modules had been bolted together.

On another note, I don't know how long RC3 is going to take. It's not that much work really, but I don't know how much my kids will allow me to work on it. My older one is eating away on my nerves with pretty much constant screaming all day long, and I'm often too exhausted to do anything in the breaks when he's asleep. I've also got sick, athough I'm better now, but we have a last trip to Germany to take care of some stuff tomorrow (with the kids... God help me!) and will be relocating to Bosnia next weekend. It might be that I can get something done next week, as the schedule between Germany and leaving isn't too tight, but I don't know yet...
 
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PeterRoss

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Now that I think about it, it might actually make sense to build in the option to specify a different mesh for the integrated module in the config. Wouldn't be difficult, really.

Heeeeeey! :hmm:



Now, I had to do this. I knew it from the beginning of the IMS development. This... is... it...
picture.php
 

Grover

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If you use a separate mesh when intergrated, how do you know which docking interfaces to remove? Consider a 6 way node, it is possible to have an integrated mesh only hiding one docking interface, but any 5 interfaces could be hidden, so which do we delete?

The only reliable way to make this happen is to specify which mesh groups to delete when each construction port is integrated
 

jedidia

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If you use a separate mesh when intergrated, how do you know which docking interfaces to remove?

You don't. The docking ports just won't look that fancy on the already integrated modules.
 

PeterRoss

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What Grover meant is that if you integrate a six-way node from one side only it will become ugly from all sides including all the sides which aren't covered with other modules yet. His idea of removing mesh on the other hand is interesting, but it will require rework of IMS integration mechanism (you'll have to specify groups to be deleted for each docking port separately) and, what is much worse, a serious alteration of meshes of already existing modules. For example, most of my modules' docking ports are parts of the main mesh groups and you can't just delete ports and leave everything else intact.

---------- Post added at 15:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 ----------

The more I think about integrated module mesh change the more I like the idea. It will allow one to deliver big-sized modules into orbit in 'folded' state and then 'expand' them upon integration. For example I'll manage to pack 10m-square OBS panels into any transportation vessel apart from XR5.
 

MaverickSawyer

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Now that I think about it, it might actually make sense to build in the option to specify a different mesh for the integrated module in the config. Wouldn't be difficult, really.

If you would, that would be awesome. Then I can begin working on my Universal Docking Ring again!

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------

The more I think about integrated module mesh change the more I like the idea. It will allow one to deliver big-sized modules into orbit in 'folded' state and then 'expand' them upon integration. For example I'll manage to pack 10m-square OBS panels into any transportation vessel apart from XR5.

How about "inflatable" modules too? This could turn into something quite interesting. I might need to find out how big the payload bay of the G42-200 is, and design some core modules around that...
 

PeterRoss

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Vessel consists of one CM which has battery capacity and cooling system enough to be self-sufficient, one node with little consumable storage capacity but otherwise configured as truss, one radiator and one solar array which produce enough power to supply CM. Problem is I have MCS overload happen with no reason. See what it looks like:

picture.php


The only vessels' heat producer is CM which heat production is 12.71 kW (10 kW for power input and 2.71 for sun heating), but MSC is at upper limit of 15 kW and overloaded. I noticed that when the radiator cools down a bit and its dissipation falls below 15 kW the MCS load becomes equal to CM heat dump. So, bug or feature? :)

P.S.

IMS user guide said:
It can also be that a module is currently dumping more than what is listed here because it has to get rid of a momentary heat surplus to lower its temperature.

Is that it?
 
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jedidia

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What Grover meant is that if you integrate a six-way node from one side only it will become ugly from all sides including all the sides

I know. That's why I said they won't look that fancy. Or ugly.

It will allow one to deliver big-sized modules into orbit in 'folded' state and then 'expand' them upon integration.

For that particular purpose, I'd just make a dll for inflated modules, really. I meant to, but I won't get around to it for a long time, and it's completely core independant anyways, so basically anybody can do it. Just write up a dll that can read a deploying animation from the config file (shouldn't use the same parameter name as IMS animation, as IMS will confuse it), and have a key-binding for inflate (Mesh should be in inflated state by default, otherwise IMS will get in trouble). As an option, you can make it delete attachment points when deflated and recreate them when inflated, so a deflated module can't be integrated.
Add parameters for inflation.dll to IMS config, make the cfg use inflatable.dll, done. Bring up to orbit, inflate, integrate. There you go.

Is that it?

Yeah. Dump is the heat the module needs to get rid off to keep its current temperature. Your CM is above nominal temp, so the MCS will use all remaining capacity to transport additional heat to bring the temperature down.
 

PeterRoss

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Yeah. Dump is the heat the module needs to get rid off to keep its current temperature. Your CM is above nominal temp, so the MCS will use all remaining capacity to transport additional heat to bring the temperature down.

Yeah, I figured it out by myself already. You can found surprisingly big amount of information if you just sit and watch. So, if radiator is not exposed to sun at all it becomes too cold to radiate efficiently. This causes MCS to overload and CM heats up faster than radiator becomes hot enough to radiate efficiently.
So, you don't have to hide radiator from sun completely if your radiating surface isn't superfluous :yes:

---------- Post added at 01:31 ---------- Previous post was at 00:16 ----------

I noticed that radiators still working when MCS is off - seems like they dissipate heat directly from modules omitting cooling system. This is, I don't need cooling system at all if my radiating area is enough to dissipate everything being dumped in real time.
 

jedidia

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So, if radiator is not exposed to sun at all it becomes too cold to radiate efficiently.

uhm no, if the radiator temperature is below the temperature it needs to radiate the incomming heat, it will heat up until it reaches that temperature even without being exposed to the sun. I.e. everything that can't be dissipated just heats up the radiator until it can be dissipated.

I noticed that radiators still working when MCS is off - seems like they dissipate heat directly from modules omitting cooling system. This is, I don't need cooling system at all if my radiating area is enough to dissipate everything being dumped in real time.

Uhm, that would be a bug... are you sure it's not just the radiators slowly cooling out? Codewise, they shouldn't be getting any heat if there's no free MCS capacity, except from modules that have their own cooling system.
 

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ive recently been having a little trouble finding how to fit enough solar panel space into one truss module, like the ISS P4-6 and S4-6

but since finding [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHvKrqLLMQo&feature=related]this[/ame] video, i can begin to understand exactly what we can do with a modern solar panel, IE how tightly they can fold it up (note how small those four panels are folded into batons like that, jump to 4:43 to skip the shuttle checking its SPS and docking)

now, this raises a compromise:
folding it up so tightly prevents using extreme optical concentration, like i suggested earlier, in order to raise efficiency, since the "magnifying glasses" would require more space)
this would in turn require us to launch more modules, since each module would fit less space onto it (unless we invest in another launch system with a larger cargo bay), so we need more launches to get the same solar panel area up there (albeit with greater efficiency)

so, which would be better? having the more efficient panels, utilising magnification onto more expensive cells to improve efficiency, or simply using a "standard" solar panel system, allowing us to put more cells in space?

i think ill go for the standard cells, and take a hit down to 8-10% efficiency, and bulking out the "batons" a little

other thoughts?


also, PeterRoss hit the nail on the head earlier:
if you modify the mesh to one with a lower poly docking interface, you run the risk of exposing low poly interfaces to the player

so instead, calculating upon each integration which interfaces are being used, and searching for a line that allows IMS to find which mesh groups (and on which mesh) groups can be deleted
so

as each module is integrated, IMS remembers which interfaces have definitions for deletable groups, then records them where they can be looked up for later
it then deletes the appropriate groups and returns to normal operation, dormant till the next integration


also, another quick question, is there a way to swap orbiter standard docking ports? the thought occurred to me when i tried to launch a second mission, and had absolutley no idea which of the 18 docks i should aim the XR5 at

thanks guys!
 

PeterRoss

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uhm no, if the radiator temperature is below the temperature it needs to radiate the incomming heat, it will heat up until it reaches that temperature even without being exposed to the sun. I.e. everything that can't be dissipated just heats up the radiator until it can be dissipated.

Absolutely. But the radiator heats up too slow to prevent MCS from overloading. It reaches equilibrium sooner or later but anyway MCS overload happens from time to time. I'm planning to send a couple of astroguys on a red deltaglider to modify MCS capacity for five kW more and see if this will do the trick.



jedidia said:
Uhm, that would be a bug... are you sure it's not just the radiators slowly cooling out? Codewise, they shouldn't be getting any heat if there's no free MCS capacity, except from modules that have their own cooling system.

I found that my solar produce not enough power to run CM and recharge batteries after passing a shadow, so I decided to turn CM off until crew arrives. Cooling system was disabled as well. MCS Overload message appeared, its capacity dropped to zero. But all the solar heating is being displayed in the radiator window and CM maintains its temperature perfectly when exposed to sun. Maybe it's the same thing as before and radiator shows just what is needed to dump to maintain current CM temperature, but the temperature itself isn't changing. I dunno.
 

jedidia

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Absolutely. But the radiator heats up too slow to prevent MCS from overloading.

That really should bear no relation... the heat should get dumped into the radiator none the less (that's why it heats up). I'd rather guess that your CM has already heated up a Kelvin or two before you brought the cooling system online.

But all the solar heating is being displayed in the radiator window and CM maintains its temperature perfectly when exposed to sun.

The heat is displayed, yes, but it doesn't arrive in the radiator. That's a 15 ton construction of metal, air and plastics you're heating up their, and it's quite well insulated, so temperature changes slowly. If it were not from the waste heat produced by electrical systems, it could manage its temperature just fine by itself with specifically designed insulation and using the shadow period for cool off (apollo did this while being exposed to direct sunlight for 5 days before the first shadow, and could do so because it was not a large power producer. But if you drive up the 170 kW of the ISS without radiators, you'll get cooked very quickly...)

if you modify the mesh to one with a lower poly docking interface, you run the risk of exposing low poly interfaces to the player

so instead, calculating upon each integration which interfaces are being used, and searching for a line that allows IMS to find which mesh groups (and on which mesh) groups can be deleted

I know, I know... but here things get somewhat complicated for everyone involved (including modelers), and I'm just not willing to put that much work into such a feature. A replacement mesh might look more ugly (which can be avoided by already docking other stuff to it before integration), but it's all I'm willing to put in.
 
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PeterRoss

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That really should bear no relation... the heat should get dumped into the radiator none the less (that's why it heats up). I'd rather guess that your CM has already heated up a Kelvin or two before you brought the cooling system online.

EDIT
OK, I got it.
Does the amount of heat needed to heat a radiator depends on its area or its mass or both or what?

The heat is displayed, yes, but it doesn't arrive in the radiator. That's a 15 ton construction of metal, air and plastics you're heating up their, and it's quite well insulated, so temperature changes slowly. If it were not from the waste heat produced by electrical systems, it could manage its temperature just fine by itself with specifically designed insulation and using the shadow period for cool off (apollo did this while being exposed to direct sunlight for 5 days before the first shadow, and could do so because it was not a large power producer. But if you drive up the 170 kW of the ISS without radiators, you'll get cooked very quickly...)

Oh, OK. I'll tell guys who's scheduled for a flight that everything works as it should. :salute:
 
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jedidia

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the heat capacity of a radiator can be freely set in the config. The default is calculated from the surface area, under the assumption that it is double sided and a current-tech aluminium mesh construction.
 

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I'm sure that there's a simple answer that's going to make me feel like a complete idiot, but I haven't been able to find the right procedure for resupplying my station.

Hydroponic food production is terribly slow, so the obvious thing would be to resupply by bringing up a cargo of food. But when I bring up a cargo container of food and attach it to a dock, the MPD screen shows "No Vessel Docked".

Do I need a specific module to dock to? Or is it some other simple thing I'm missing?
 

PeterRoss

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The only type of dock you can transfer consumables through is a permanent dock. Permanet docks are docks that aren't getting deleted when the vessel is finalised. You can use these docks before vessel is finalised too. Modules with permanent docks are DADG_Docking_Adapter, BCCH_Container_Holder, LBN1_LifeBoat_Deck, BD101_Airdock, etc. Note that if you can attach container to a docking port this port isn't permanent and you can't transfer anything through it. Permanent docking ports can be docked with only.
 
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