Lunar Capital City Competition

[T.Neo]

There is more to the word "environment" than a bunch of dolphins and trees and fresh air:

Indeed, but the environments full of dolphins and trees and fresh air are usually the more interesting ones.

As for location, might I suggest Copernicus?

I don't see any particular advantages or disadvantages to Copernicus (other than it being a slightly famous location).

Either of the poles would be a good bet for continuous solar power, although power during the long lunar nights could perhaps be beamed via a solar power sat at the L1 point. Temperature swings at the poles are far milder, too.

Also, a position near both the lunar highlands and lunar lowlands might be desirable if aluminium and oxygen are to be gathered as rocket propellant- they have plenty of issues as propellant but are abundant on the Moon (though getting Aluminium might be tricky, and this is not solely a problem relating to propellant). I'd imagine an equatorial location would be a better position for a mass driver, as well.

I'd say the location should almost certainly have Earth above the horizon, for ease of communication and perhaps also psychological factors.

EDIT:

A [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statite"]statite[/ame] could potentially be used to "hover" over the Moon, and either support a solar power sat or actually reflect sunlight onto an array of panels on the ground (although I am wholly unsure whether either would work).

 

[dougkeenan]

I don't see any particular advantages or disadvantages to Copernicus (other than it being a slightly famous location).

Right - it's neat, and I'm not aware of any Orbiter addon already there. (Somebody correct me!) Plus we can piggyback on the JAXA footage and data for verisimilitude.

 

[KKinsane]

lol, I did say unless you count heat exchange and dust, since theres not much if any pressure on the moon I assume you'd want multi layer walls in case of micro meteorite punctures and such, tin foil may cut it in space but one hole and you could well die in your sleep. perhaps some sort of self expanding foam stuff in the outermost part of said layered wall would be a good idea, triggered by the change in pressure (inner wall pressure drops when punctured, foam expands, seals hole, no EV...wait, whats EVA but on the moon, lunar activity?)

just remembered something I heard in an (somewhat accurate) anime, stars are 4 times brighter from the surface of the moon, apparently, i've not been there I couldn't prove it. so...solar power would be great, if you've seen the solar oven thing on youtube, times that by four and you got yourself one hot energy beam. geothermal ain't gunna work, fossil fuels probably equally as bad an idea, barring a he3 engine powering a generator but that would be like taking the whole oil economy problems to space with a new power source. imo. then theres teathering a spinning generator satalite of sorts to the moon, in a stable (alt relative) orbit, thus harnessing gravity (I can imagine that being VERY tempromental though. still "free" electricity and your gunna need that.)

for superior meteorite protection make underground buildings, but watch out for the clangers.

ed: as for location, anywhere would do imo that is not prone to freezing from darkness, like what LCROSS hit, so craters can also be a dangerous choice unless you pick it carefully.

 

[StevoPistolero]

So this is interesting. It seems that a large crater would provide a diversity of land forms: bumpy on the surface, smooth in the middle, vertical sides, etc. I also like the idea of building on the side of the crater. I think ideally you would have one that straddles one of the seas and the craterous part. We would want to be located near some beautiful scenery for tourism.

I don't see how you would get better sunlight at the poles.

Does anyone have a good map of the moon? Could they identify a few places to put a settlement? A place with lots of craters, a place near with beautiful but safe terrain, a place on the edge of a sea, a place near water. I am going to check out Google Moon, but I don't have my own internet connection, so it would be better if someone else helped with this. You would put the settlement on the north rim of the crater, to maximize sunlight.

I would like to direct the discussion toward functionality. How would food systems work? Would they be big glass terraformed domes? Would there be hydroponics indoors? How do you get fertilizer to the moon? Is it just recycled poop? You would have to have livestock on the moon. Imagine, moon cows. No stress on the meat. It would be so delicious!

I am concerned about the idea of the glass dome enveloping the city. That would be very hard to keep from cracking, causing a catastrophic decompression. But you can't have livestock and plant life without sunlight.

What other facilities might you need?

 

[dougkeenan]

How many cows do you think we'd get? Golly!

 

[T.Neo]

I don't see how you would get better sunlight at the poles.

It's called a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_of_Eternal_Light"]Peak of Eternal Light[/ame]. Pretty advantageous for a base operating on solar power, the long lunar nights can be troublesome. :thumbup:

Temperature gradients at the poles are also slightly less bad, AFAIK.

Does anyone have a good map of the moon?

I'm sure there are several good ones on the 'net (NASA might be a good start). It's a pity you can't go onto Google Moon, as it can be useful for preliminary scouting at least, and can be great fun.

You would put the settlement on the north rim of the crater, to maximize sunlight.

I don't see how that would help, as the axial tilt of the Moon is quite low. Unless I'm missing a crucial aspect of sunlighting on the lunar surface.

a place near water.

Then you'll have to go to the poles, and it might be tricky to get at it even there. I wouldn't waste it on rocket fuel or something like that, it's better used in a closed ecological system.

Would they be big glass terraformed domes? Would there be hydroponics indoors?

I think it would be generally safer to have hydroponics indoors, both for radiation, micrometeorite and thermal protection. AFAIK there shouldn't be any problem with raising either plants or animals in such an environment, if everything was balanced correctly.

I find the idea of a "moon-dome" romantic, but I don't think it is practical for early level food production. Everything should be standardised and have multiple uses- an underground room to grow tomatoes could be used as a dormitary, or a production facility, or a mess hall.

How do you get fertilizer to the moon? Is it just recycled poop?

Pretty much. Stuff like this should be conserved and reused within the habitat. It isn't like organics are particularly abundant on the Moon.

You would have to have livestock on the moon.

There's also the possibility of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat"]in-vitro meat[/ame] which saves a lot of the trouble of keeping livestock (imagine getting a cow to the Moon with current equipment).

But keeping live animals should be looked at- and not just animals like cows or poultry, but fish and even shellfish.

In addition to animals and higher plants, algae, specifically spirulina, could be considered for both CO2 scrubbing, waste treatment and food, although I've heard it contains a certain chemical that could make it unsuitable for the latter. Either way it is still a very advantageous organism to have.

Perhaps another method would be "greening" walls and ceilings with different species of plants, primarily food-bearing plants. Or making certain parts of the rooms blue- both blue and green are lacking on the Moon.

And perhaps there should be safeguards against solipsism setting in on the base's inhabitants.

What other facilities might you need?

Airlocks, repair rooms for outside equipment, recreation rooms, auditoriums or theaters (briefing rooms perhaps, or reconfigurable as a mess hall), and a viewing deck.

And if you have a bit of water to waste, perhaps even a small swimming pool.

 

[dumbo2007]

The sunlight has to be channeled in from the crater sides using mirrors. I would say put the hydroponics, farms anything needing light at the side of the crater..here is some ascii art:-

                                 light well opening v
  _|  |_| |__                                     _| |____|  |____surface
             \  <----            glass panes---> /         
   gardens    \ <----                       --->/farms 
               \                               /                 
                \                             /
    repair rooms \_______landing pads________/Airlocks    recreation rooms,auditoriums,theaters,living quarters

in fact they can be a ring all around the side. Have glass panes above the level of the farms to bring the sunlight from above....do not use large glass domes or panes to keep cracks from expanding : channel in light using mirrors from other lights wells too...the living quarters are buried deep into layers of regolith to absorb maximum radiation and meteor impacts. Would make sense to have it near a pole to have fresh water supply and sunlight

 

[Coolhand]

interesting ideas in this thread, do you have a portfolio StevePistolero?

iirc, Nasa did some studies on the iss with artificial lighting so you could grow your own food without needing some pressurised greenhouse - the plants look black under red and blue lighting, they dont need green light and absorb red and blue wavelengths so if you give them specific ranges of wavelengths you save energy. if you did it underground, your moon cows would look real strange chowing down on a black field under purple lighting but it would work i think.

as for the meat on the moon cows, i doubt they would do too well unless they were genetically engineered to put on massive amounts of muscle mass, if its left up to nature, i imagine they'll wither away in the low g as much as humans.

It would be more efficient to grow food in vats or containers. So, rather than from a confused, half blind skinny purple cow, your burger meat for your lunar bbq could be sourced from a big cube of cow muscle grown in a vat of nutrient.

mmm.

btw, i guess it depends a bit on where you put your base, but you'll probably have to put up with some long periods of darkness, so to keep your crops alive you'll need artificial lighting at times even if you can use sunlight.

 

[Gumdrop]

Have we considered nuclear power?

 

[Andy44]

About that low G: that's going to be a problem. Even if humans can live in it long-term, anyone who stays on the moon too long or who is born there will likely not be able to function on the Earth's surface.

The only way I know of to counter that is to build large portions of the colony on carousels which simulate Earth G. Or for residents to spend a good amount of time in a carousel each day. Makes things much more expensive and complicated.

 

[T.Neo]

Or limiting stays to short periods of time, living long term either back on Earh or in an orbital colony near the Moon that simulates 1 G.

 

[dumbo2007]

From the recent discoveries of water ...the craters where a colony could be relatively easy to set up:-
1. Cabeus(LCROSS crash site)
2. One of the more than 40 craters ranging from 1 mile (2 km) to 9 miles (15 km) wide found harboring ice in the north pole by Chandrayaan 1
3. Malapert mountain, located near the Shackleton crater at the lunar south pole(sunlight, communications with earth, implanted volatiles like hydrogen nearby)
4. Peary crater at the North Pole(stable temperatures)

 

[StevoPistolero]

Dumbo, thanks so much for the work on picking a site!

I am trying to get a copy of CS5 so I can start visualizing it in elevation view. Maybe I'll do something in GIMP.

 

[StevoPistolero]

How far does the ice extend? I am concerned that at the extreme poles 1) the inclination is obnoxious, 2) it is too rough. We need a site that borders a sea.

 

[Andy44]

How far does the ice extend?

Well, surface ice has to be permanently in shadow, so it won't go too far from the poles.

But there's so much about the moon we don't know. In Heinlein's novel, there was ice deep underground in lots of places on the moon, which was convenient for his story.

Could it be true? Who knows. Until a few months ago we had never seen a single drop of water on the moon, even after 12 people walked on it. Now we know it's at least at the poles.

For a long-term sustainable town, wou'd better hope there's a lot of water. One small frozen lake isn't going to last very long, IMO.

 

[fireballs619]

I'll help. I'm guessing the cash prize, if won, would be donated to OF

 

[StevoPistolero]

Yes, the cash prize would be donated to the forum, I promise.

So I have a concept now. The project is based on light. Light, to send back to earth for energy. Light, to be harvested with fiber optics to light the interior and make farming possible. And light's absence, shade, in the form of "shadow lakes" deep dark craters where ice can be harvested, and are essentially uninhabitable.

I am looking at the scale of the terrain, and it is jaw-droppingly rugged at the poles. This can't be avoided. We have to harvest ice, to make oxygen, to make water, to make hydrogen. Especially water, since we can transport oxygen from the earth without reentering the atmosphere (scooping it up). But you can't do that with water; it is just too heavy. So we need to be near these deep craters at the poles.

Most of the transportation is done by gondola, to take one up and down the craters. Also, there will be extensive smoothing to clear a plane for the solar arrays.

Attached is a diagram I whipped up. Later when the design is solidified I will go back and make it pretty.

I think the next step is to imagine what the capital city will look like. It will be on flat land, so we need to think about going down into the surface. I will make a diagram of that next.

 

[Andy44]

At the poles the solar panels will have to face the horizon, not the overhead sky. You want to put your solar farm on top of mountain peaks and the panels have to swivel in azimuth to track the sun.

 

[StevoPistolero]

Woah, ShiftBoston just released detailed information about the competition. We can either design a single 50 person base, or an entire capital city. I think we should do the later, but we must look into the rules. I am leaning toward entering under the second category.

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 AM ----------

Now would be a good time for anyone with design skills to let me know what programs they are good with.

 

[ar81]

A colony will have to deal with sharp moon dust that is likely to damage equipment used to build anything on the moon. Moon base should be built underground, like an ant colony, because there is no atmospheric protection against meteorites.

My bet is lack of exposure to sunlight (production of vitamin D on the skin) will be an issue for people. Just like in a space station, you may need a gym.

Main threats (just like in a space station) are: Fire, air leak and toxic spills.

Any economic activity on the moon would be hypothetical. Helium 3 seems a possibility. Supplying the base during the first years would be very expensive, because it would be like supplying ISS, but far more expensive.

Probably life there may be very spartan and you are likely to be home sick very soon in an underground hole and a wasteland that is far from Earth.

I can see more chances of an economic activity on Mars, where iron may be found and mined without digging too much. Problem is, we do not know what to expect on Mars. Atmosphere is so thin that it offers almost no protection against meteorites and it still may have seismic activity.

And light's absence, shade, in the form of "shadow lakes" deep dark craters where ice can be harvested, and are essentially uninhabitable.

I am looking at the scale of the terrain, and it is jaw-droppingly rugged at the poles. This can't be avoided. We have to harvest ice, to make oxygen, to make water, to make hydrogen. Especially water, since we can transport oxygen from the earth without reentering the atmosphere (scooping it up). But you can't do that with water; it is just too heavy. So we need to be near these deep craters at the poles.

Most of the transportation is done by gondola, to take one up and down the craters. Also, there will be extensive smoothing to clear a plane for the solar arrays.

My bet is that anything you design should avoid movable parts in the outside, due to corrosion after moon dust. My bet is magnetic rails should be used with a pressurized mechanism inside.

Not only you need to think about ice, but what kind of ice. Is it frozen carbon dioxide, or frozen water or something else? Also you need to think about how much ice you may get.