Project Lunar Module "Spider" (Updated 11/01/2012)

Grover

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id prefer the "hardcore mode" (AKA "Apollo landing worst case scenario training exercise"), would be nice to have a few failed attempts, then one glorious landing, followed my a botched ascent.

sorry ive been gone a while, work's slowly killing me (sucking the life out of me, one day at a time), but how do you plan to get this bird (and a return craft, possibly the CTV) up to orbit? is it written somewhere in these last few pages?

i had an idea for the LTV and CTV, and made a ratehr poor quality booster stage, that would harness both craft Apollo style (almost like the Saturn II-B, AKA Saturn V stage 3), then later release each craft after TLI and send itself into the moon (hopefully nowhere near any civilisation), i might be able to make one again (and it would be nice to try again, doing a proper DLL and taking a little time, then launching the whole thing out of an Energia (sorry for you peeps with lower-end computers, but mine handles the XR5 fine :p)

thanks man, hopefully wont be too long for a bit of a play round our favourite moonbases in this contraption!
 

BruceJohnJennerLawso

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id prefer the "hardcore mode" (AKA "Apollo landing worst case scenario training exercise"), would be nice to have a few failed attempts, then one glorious landing, followed my a botched ascent.

sorry ive been gone a while, work's slowly killing me (sucking the life out of me, one day at a time), but how do you plan to get this bird (and a return craft, possibly the CTV) up to orbit? is it written somewhere in these last few pages?

i had an idea for the LTV and CTV, and made a ratehr poor quality booster stage, that would harness both craft Apollo style (almost like the Saturn II-B, AKA Saturn V stage 3), then later release each craft after TLI and send itself into the moon (hopefully nowhere near any civilisation), i might be able to make one again (and it would be nice to try again, doing a proper DLL and taking a little time, then launching the whole thing out of an Energia (sorry for you peeps with lower-end computers, but mine handles the XR5 fine :p)

thanks man, hopefully wont be too long for a bit of a play round our favourite moonbases in this contraption!

Orion as shown in your profile pic, would make sense. Might even be real in the next couple years :)
 

Grover

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but i havent found an orion addon yet worth pairing with this much detail, or an LV addon what could carry both to lunar insertion. but to be fair, i havent looked very hard
 

Hlynkacg

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id prefer the "hardcore mode" (AKA "Apollo landing worst case scenario training exercise"), would be nice to have a few failed attempts, then one glorious landing, followed my a botched ascent.

sorry ive been gone a while, work's slowly killing me (sucking the life out of me, one day at a time), but how do you plan to get this bird (and a return craft, possibly the CTV) up to orbit? is it written somewhere in these last few pages?

Well you're in luck then because right now that's your only option if you want to arrive on the surface as anything other than a crater. :lol:

As for you're second question...

At the moment my missions make use of Glider's SpaceX/Dragon Addon and lots of velcro.

However, a more permenant solution is in work.
 
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Grover

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nice model there you have, and i see its your own work!

was there any specific command craft you were going to use? or were you going to create your own once the lander is space-worthy?
 

Hlynkacg

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nice model there you have, and i see its your own work!

was there any specific command craft you were going to use? or were you going to create your own once the lander is space-worthy?

I do plan to do a matching CSM (Gumdrop!) at some point but it's rather low on the to-do list.

I've already got several other projects including the LEM Truck LEM Lab/Shelter multiple Saturn Varients and version 2 of my NERVA addon all in various levels completeion and I want to get a few of 'em "out the door" before I start on a completely new project.

Until then as I said, I've been using Glider's Dragon Capsule as a command module and velcro rockets to get around.

---------- Post added at 04:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------


A little teaser :p

"Spider" Lunar Excursion Module
A custom vessel addon for Orbiter 2010

Flying the LEM:
The VC:
The virtual cockit is the Orbinaut's primary method for controlling and monotoring spacecraft status and subsystems. Buttons, Switches and other active area can be manipulated by the mouse. As a rule of thumb left-clicking will flip a switch up or move a dial to the right and right-clicking will flip it down or move it to the left.
Main Propulsion System:
The main propulsion system (MPS) consists of two Stages; the Descent Stage and the Ascent Stage. Both are controled by Orbiter's default "Hover" keys ([0] and [.] on your computer's numpad) and by an array of switches in the lower left corner of Panel 1.
To fire the MPS first pressurize the Proppelant and Oxidizer feed lines by opening their respective flow valves, and then select the appropriate engine using the "ENG ARM" switch.
The Descent Stage is throttlable from 10% to 90%
The Ascent Stage is not throttlable and will continue to burn at 100% until it's propellant is expended or cut off.
The MPS can be secured by using the "Kill Thrust" button ([*] on your numpad) or by moving the "ENG ARM" switch to "SAFE" and closing the propellant and oxidizer flow valves.
Reaction Control System:
The RCS is made up of 16 thrusters seperated into two independent subsystems (A and B) consisting of eight thrusters each. Under normal conditions, the two systems function together. However, even functioning alone, either RCS system is capable of steering the spacecraft.
The RCS system is controled by Numpad/Joystick inputs from the Orbinaut and by a four rows of four switches on the left side of Panel 2. The top row of switches controls the RCS fuel and oxidizer shut of valves. These switches enable/disable flow of propellant and O2 from the primary RCS tanks to the syestem A and B manifolds. The middle two rows of switches allow individual thruster quads to be turned on and off. The final row of switches controls the propellant crossfeed valves, allowing the individual RCS subsystems to draw propellant either from each-other or from the Ascent Stage propellant tanks.

NOTE: In order for RCS to draw from the Ascent stage tanks the Ascent stage flow valves must be open.

And yes, everything described exists and is currently functional in Orbiter...
 
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Hlynkacg

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Hey kids, [ame="http://orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5846"]guess what day it is...[/ame]
 

Grover

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is there any autopilots in this beta? or do we figure out a descent profile by ourselves?

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------

never mind, found a descent autopilot by mistake, the A key shouldn't be used, since its also the shortcut for "hold alt", granted by orbiter itself.

ok, after a couple failed landings, ive checked out the spider a little, so heres some suggestions:

1) change the material for the VC mesh, its impossible to read the labels when the sun is reflecting off the panels, get rid of the specular effect (reflectivness)

2) the ascent stage RCS is so overpowered, the CRTL functions are just about right, is it possible to modify the RCS thrust once the ascent stage is separated, to allow for the lower PMI of the ascent stage?

3) what the hell is that autopilot i found? at first i thought it just cancelled out any horizontal movement, but it was all over the place, and made it worse. plus i couldn't find a shutoff switch, so the RCS wouldn't stop firing, trying to pitch the craft, even though its landed (nowhere near brighton base BTW) and the engine has stopped

but overall this is mighty fine for a beta... minus the lack of texture on teh outside.
 

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Got a CTD with the orbital scenario and an invisible ship with the landed one.
Apparently I'm missing the msvcr100.dll somewhere...
I guess it's my wrong but since it's beta I guess mentioning this on the docs might save some trouble.
 

Grover

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think ive found another bug:

i thought attitudeMFD might help with my descent, so i fired it up, but it doesnt seem to communicate well with the lander's RCS, and refuses to set the attitude that i specify, only changing yaw

to recreate:
load the provided orbital scenario
undock
set attitude reference to velocity
set attitude of zero yaw/roll
set pitch to 90
observe as the lander orients to look along the horizon, just above the velocity vector

can anyone else recreate this? i tried using the MFD on the DG i was docked to and it worked fine then

thanks
 

Hlynkacg

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is there any autopilots in this beta? or do we figure out a descent profile by ourselves?

never mind, found a descent autopilot by mistake, the A key shouldn't be used, since its also the shortcut for "hold alt", granted by orbiter itself.


That's the hover autopilot (cancel vertical and horizontal velocity) and is supposed to activated by [ctrl] + [A].

1) change the material for the VC mesh, its impossible to read the labels when the sun is reflecting off the panels, get rid of the specular effect (reflectivness)

will do.

2) the ascent stage RCS is so overpowered, the CRTL functions are just about right, is it possible to modify the RCS thrust once the ascent stage is separated, to allow for the lower PMI of the ascent stage?

The RCS thrust levels and vessel PMI are historically accurate but I've noticed this as well. I'm not sure how best to adress it though.

I suspect that part of the problem is that orbiter treats manual inputs as either full-on or full-off and the historical lem did not. In the interim try deactivating on of the RCS control loops. You'll loose translational authority but'll still have Pitch Roll and Yaw control.

3) what the hell is that autopilot i found? at first i thought it just cancelled out any horizontal movement, but it was all over the place, and made it worse. plus i couldn't find a shutoff switch, so the RCS wouldn't stop firing, trying to pitch the craft, even though its landed (nowhere near brighton base BTW) and the engine has stopped

Hmm... as said, it's the hover autopilot but it's supposed to deactivate on ground contact, engine stop, or activation of any other AP. (including killrot)

This is a bug and I will get to work on it.

but overall this is mighty fine for a beta... minus the lack of texture on teh outside.

Thankyou :tiphat:

Got a CTD with the orbital scenario and an invisible ship with the landed one.
Apparently I'm missing the msvcr100.dll somewhere...
I guess it's my wrong but since it's beta I guess mentioning this on the docs might save some trouble.

Good to know.

think ive found another bug:

i thought attitudeMFD might help with my descent, so i fired it up, but it doesnt seem to communicate well with the lander's RCS, and refuses to set the attitude that i specify, only changing yaw

to recreate:
load the provided orbital scenario
undock
set attitude reference to velocity
set attitude of zero yaw/roll
set pitch to 90
observe as the lander orients to look along the horizon, just above the velocity vector

can anyone else recreate this? i tried using the MFD on the DG i was docked to and it worked fine then

thanks

Hmm...

This is a new one on me. I suspect that it' might have something to do with how Spider sets it's RCS control groups dynamically to adapt to disabled thruster quads but I'll need to do more testing on it.


Thanks both of you and keep the feedback coming.
 
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Grover

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one more bug:
during time acceleration beyond 1,000x, the world around the LEM moves faster than the LEM. once i hit 10,000x aceleration, the deltaglider traveled around its orbit 10,000x faster, but the LEM stayed at its previous 1,000x faster, ruining my well organised synchronisation trajectory. can you think what could cause the lander to disobey orbiter, and not increase its own time compression?

also, ive found that theres not much room for error during landing, due to the low dV available. i find that after a good de-orbit, leaving me in a good position to start my approach to a pad, that i only have a minute's worth of fuel, which requires a rapid and hasty descent, with almost no chance of putting her on a pad.

whilst this is realistic in that the real apollo craft could never have landed within 10m of their target (and would instead settle for getting it within a few kilometres), it makes things even harder for less experienced pilots, who don't get the initial descent right, and may require a number of aborted descents. in short, perhaps you could increase the ISP a little, somewhere between 5% and 10% more should do it.
again, the ascent stage is similar. whilst i can get it docked rather easily given the dV budget of the ascent stage, im not sure that the less experienced ("casual") pilots could, so perhaps an ISP increase across the board would be best


and finally, heres a detailed mission plan for those people trying to get the hang of this (only orbiter autopilots used):

from the "orbital" scenario, you find yourself in a descending orbit. undock straight away, and prepare for the flight. tune the Brighton VOR and circularize the DG's orbit (he's not coming down with us).
next, burn retrograde to lower the PeA to about 10Km (your ApA should be roughly 100Km), then wait till you come within 500km of brighton

using the VOR/VTOL MFD (or MapMFD) wait till you pass the 450km mark. before you reach this point, orient yourself to be facing Zenit (your back to the moon, looking directly away from it) with your engine pointing prograde (so firing it is burning retrograde). as you pass the 450km mark, hold numpad 0 to engage your engines (full power). you are now performing your descent, from this point onwards, if anything goes wrong, you need to abort, and try to regain orbit, staging when necessary.

now, during the descent, you will mostly be just decelerating. using the Surface MFD you can get the right slope, just make sure that you hold a roughly constand descent rate of 20m/s. make small adjustments to your attitude, and use the VACC readout to get it just right. once your speed gets below 200m/s (after a long burn), you should be ready to pitch down, and look for your landing point.

now things get interesting. you will probably not be able to get right on top of a pad, so aim to get within 5km of the target (a rover can pick you up from there), but dont make any strong movements, or you will most certainly lose control, and waste loads of fuel, which is not good at this point. if you have overshot the target, just stay pitched up as your speed reaches zero, and move back towards your target, though you will have to use only your instruments from now, since turning round whilst pitched can be very difficult.

make a steady descent, and hit numpad [*] once you drop to 5m altitude, with almost no vertical speed, you will then touch down nicely.

ready to ascend? wait for your host craft (GL-NT) to pass overhead (ideally five degrees before it actually passes over), and stage. the ascent engine will automatically fire. pitch forward straight away to roughly 50 degrees down, then pitch down as necessary to hold your vertical speed around 30m/s upwards, decelerating at 0.1m/s^2

as your speed approaches 1.6km/s, check that your vertical speed is low, and aim to get it as small as possible, then cut your engines as your PeA reaches your altitude.

from now on, the "hover engine" is difficult to use, and low on fuel, so you may want to use the RCS in translation mode instead. perform a normal synchronisation and dock, then dispose of the lander safely (deorbit it :D)

if im not clear enough, let me know and il take a little more time writing it

thanks
 

Submariner

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Got a CTD with the orbital scenario and an invisible ship with the landed one.
Apparently I'm missing the msvcr100.dll somewhere...
I guess it's my wrong but since it's beta I guess mentioning this on the docs might save some trouble.

I had the same results? What do I need to download?
 

Hlynkacg

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one more bug:
during time acceleration beyond 1,000x, the world around the LEM moves faster than the LEM. once i hit 10,000x aceleration, the deltaglider traveled around its orbit 10,000x faster, but the LEM stayed at its previous 1,000x faster, ruining my well organised synchronisation trajectory. can you think what could cause the lander to disobey orbiter, and not increase its own time compression?

Ok that's wierd, not sure what could cause that but I'll see what I can find.

also, ive found that theres not much room for error during landing, due to the low dV available. i find that after a good de-orbit, leaving me in a good position to start my approach to a pad, that i only have a minute's worth of fuel, which requires a rapid and hasty descent, with almost no chance of putting her on a pad.

As you noted this is "true to life" and for the moment at least I intend to leave it as is. It's also worth noting that the flight-plan you described matches the historical one very closely and with your permission I'd like to include it in the documentation of future versions.

So let's see
Bugs thus far:

  • Specularity on VC panel materials *Fixed*
  • Hover Autopilot activated by [A] key alone *Fixed*
  • Hover Autopilot freaking out *In Work*
  • Attitude MFD conflict *under investigation*
  • Time Accel bug WTF?! :confused:

Features for next Beta Release.
  • Adress bugs listed above
  • Add Altitude, Vert. Speed, and Vert Acc indicators to VC panel (they will go in the blank space to the right of the MFD)
  • Add error needles and mode select switch to ADI


---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

I had the same results? What do I need to download?

msvcr100 is part of the Windows 7 runtime library.

I forgot that VS2010 (the program I used to compile the addon) included it as a default dependancy. This will be adressed in future releases but until then...

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...00dll-is/5c9d301a-2191-4edb-916e-5e4958558090
 

Submariner

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So, will this run with Windows XP? Or only 7? I really want to try this, it looks great!
 

Hlynkacg

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it will run but you'll need to download the 2010 runtime library. (see link)

As I said, I compiled the addon using the Windows 7 vs2010 compiler and forgot to test for backwards compatability.

My bad.
 

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Just to be precise, it is the msvcr100d.dll that is missing, not the msvcr100.dll.
I'm running Windows 7 64bits. I tried to install the runtime but it didn't solve the problem, so I got the .dll from elsewhere and just put it on the Orbiter folder. Fixed!
 

Hlynkacg

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Just to be precise, it is the msvcr100d.dll that is missing, not the msvcr100.dll.
I'm running Windows 7 64bits. I tried to install the runtime but it didn't solve the problem, so I got the .dll from elsewhere and just put it on the Orbiter folder. Fixed!

Ahh, good to know!
 
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