McCain or Obama?

Which Canidate do you want to win the election?

  • McCain

    Votes: 54 36.2%
  • Obama

    Votes: 95 63.8%

  • Total voters
    149
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cjp

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I don't think people who earn more should be taxed more, that just seems unfair. Everyone should be taxed the same level, with those at VERY low levels of income (i.e: Poverty line) being given govt subsidies on food, housing etc in return.
Those who earn more should be encouraged to invest their money, put it into something productive like shares or a bond. That way the entire economy benefits.

I've been thinking of a very simple linear model, where the effective amount of tax of a person i is T = b*x - a:

  • a is the minimum amount of money person i needs for a decent living (food, housing, transportation, health care, education, legal support, political rights, etc.). May be different for different people (as circumstances can be different).
    [*]x is the untaxed income of person i.
    [*]b is a proportionality constant.

So the net income would be y = x - T = (1-b) * x + a. Unemployed people receive a, which is the absolute minimum they need. As soon as x > a / b, a person starts paying taxes instead of receiving money.

The total amount of money the government receives would be:
sum(T) = b*sum(x) - sum(a)
As this should be sufficient to cover all other government expenses E, we can determine the best b by solving b*sum(x) - sum(a) = E. Obviously, you can't set b >= 1, and I think values above 60% should be avoided, because it reduces the stimulus for people to work harder, and stimulates tax fraud. So this puts a limit on the value of E. I think in most countries the current amount of expenses would give a value around b = 0.4.

I've done some reading on this Fair Tax idea, and I think the idea is effectively the same as the b*x factor, except it is taxed at consumption instead of income. So, non-consumption purposes of income are the only difference, which may contain investments and savings (AFAIK), as they are not taxed in FairTax.

Next thing you need to do is find ways to reduce the phenomenon that some for people their income is completely disproportional to the amount of work they do for society. However, it may be better to do this in other ways than by simply assuming that extraordinarily rich people are "cheating", and therefore must pay more taxes.

In very poor countries, you might not be able to give everyone a, even when E=0, so you need to lower your standards a bit and use a lower value of a. In the limiting case, you can just reach E=0 at b=1. This would be an "everybody is equal"-communist-style economy (although in actual communist countries, E is significantly larger than zero). I think in any industrial nation, there is no need for such a system, and even when there is such a need, it would often be better to allow E<0 for a limited amount of time, to allow b < 1, and hope for economic growth, so that the governments' debts can be paid back in the future.
 

n72.75

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WOW i am suppriesed that the vote is so even 23 to 24 so far
 

Urwumpe

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WOW i am suppriesed that the vote is so even 23 to 24 so far

What do you expect, here those European supervillains can also vote! :rofl::cheers:
 

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Why should the oil price drop? Can you explain this please, what makes you sure, that a temporary influx of a little bit of new oil, will have any noticeable effect on the oil price?

The cause, by which (e.g.) oil prices would decrease now, even though it would be a while before the oil actually was available, is called the "futures" market. I have no expertise in the matter, but here is my understanding obtained from observations of public discussions.

Basically, people buy future oil - they purchase it, now, but will take delivery, later. This is particularly useful for large consumers, like commercial airlines; they know that they will need a lot of jet fuel, next year, but if they expect the price to be higher, next year, then better to buy it now, and let it be delivered, next year.

The price of a "futures" contract, depends upon what is predicted to be the future situation. So, if there is reason to believe that there will be more oil available, next year (or in 5years, or whatever is the specification of the contract), then the expectation is that the price will be lower, then, than if there were not likely to be more oil available, then. As a result, the current purchase price of the "futures" contract, is lower, in accordance with an expectation of how it will represent the future circumstances.

It's all a bit of a gamble, of course - and a complicated calculation, since future demand must be considered, as well as future supply - but there are people whose business it is to make such predictions, and suffice to say that the "futures" market is real and significant. Furthermore, it is part of the overall market structure for the product (e.g. - oil). And "futures" markets are therefore useful, as part of the general economy, as being a kind of buffer system, whereby people get a sense of what the market will be doing, over time, and can prepare for it.

The point here, really, is that the price of "futures" contracts, affects the price of the item, now. In fact, "futures" contracts are even bought and sold (like mortgages and other loan contracts) - as if such a contract is a commercial item, in itself - by "speculators" who expect to be able to make a profit by the difference between what is predicted and what actually happens, and by the change of the price of such a contract, over time - kind of like a stock market system. And if oil "futures" contracts are decreasing in price, due to a prediction of greater future supply, then people regard this as an indication (a "market signal") that a lower current oil price is appropriate, and current prices decrease, too. This exemplifies how the "futures" market acts as a buffer for the contemporaneous market, and it also explains how current prices are dependent upon "futures" prices, and are dependent upon future circumstances.

(For a perhaps more amusing explanation of the "futures" market, you could watch the movie "Trading Places," with Dan Ackroyd, Eddie Murphy and a bunch of other great people.)


Next thing you need to do is find ways to reduce the phenomenon that some for people their income is completely disproportional to the amount of work they do for society. However, it may be better to do this in other ways than by simply assuming that extraordinarily rich people are "cheating", and therefore must pay more taxes.

I think that this represents a faulty perspective, since the intended beneficiary of one's work is not "society," but rather, one's employer. And the value, to an employer, of one's work, is not represented exclusively by what the work is, but also, what would be the alternative.

Some professional athletes and movie actors, for example, earn enormous amounts of money, while doing things that arguably are not cosmically beneficial. However, what would be the alternative to that person's doing the work? Who else has comparable skill (as arguably insignificant as an athlete's specialized skill may be)? Who else could attract such a large audience to see the movie (as unimportant as may arguably be the work of portraying a character in a dramatic production)?

Who else can play such music on that instrument, or compose such a song? Who else could satisfactorily, even beneficially and profitably, manage this large, complex business enterprise - upon which, the livelihood of thousands of other persons, may depend?

Some persons have special talents, which make them peculiarly valuable to other persons - notwithstanding what may be their arguable value to yet other persons or "society," generally. This peculiarly great value is exchangeable for great money, and since you are free to spend your money for what is valuable to you, why begrudge others' doing likewise?


-----Posted Added-----


@Urwumpe -

It occurs to me that perhaps I did not really answer the question that you intended - why a comparatively small amount of additionally supplied oil (perhaps 3% of world supply), might significantly affect prices (current, and future).

It's a good question, of course; one might expect an additional 3% oil supply to lower prices by only 3%, or something like that. But there are further considerations, including:

-whether the added oil would, indeed, be placed into the world supply, or reserved for domestic use

-how accurate is the "3% of world supply" proposition; "proven reserves" continue to be enormously underestimated, while much of the USA's regions remain "off-limits" to exploration, and technological advancements for obtaining oil from various unusual sources, continue

-how well current prices represent an accurate market price; the oil industry is hugely regulated, including by OPEC decisions that constitute an arguably "price-fixing" and monopolistic sort of effect, and by governmental regulations that control supply, increase prices by taxation and perhaps decrease prices by subsidies, in addition to manipulating demand by "encouragements" to conserve, policies to increase use-efficiency and perhaps other policies with significant or subtle, direct or indirect, effects. The effect of changes in the regulation structure, are perhaps unpredictable as well as significant, in a market that is already notably speculative.
 
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eveningsky339

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OK - so you think hatred of Obama is enough?
Come now... I don't hate anybody. I dislike both the Republican and Democratic parties. It seems to me that Obama is too inexperienced for the job and too idealistic.

Especially as inexperience also applies to Palin - one week ago, she was still unknown south of the canadian border, and her political career relied heavy on republican party sponsorship, while Obama became State senator against the will of the Democrat party (they wanted first Jesse James Jr, then Alice Palmer in the district) and got support for his step to senator only after he left the first marks in state senate.
Palin is inexperienced, but not to the same extent as Obama. McCain's experience should balance things out, and I hope the same is true for Biden and Obama, should they win the election.

I think in this context, you can compare McCain and Obama pretty well - both had to fight hard for the position they are today, and that not only against their political enemies, but also their "political friends" (if such a thing exists). Both have earned being candidates. You can argue about Biden and Palin... I think both are just watchdogs of their party. Especially Palin, who had already shown that she has no problems with betraying other republicans, if it suits her career.
Vice presidents in reality have little power in the government (I believe this was a common complaint of Teddy Roosevelt). Palin has made some disturbing decisions, such as book banning, based on her fundamentalist brand of Christianity, but as VP none of these ideas will go through, particularly with a Democrat-dominated Senate. I should hope her near Macchiavellian boldness will find healthier outlets should McCain become president.

If I had it my way, I would vote third party, but that can't be a reality as long as only two political parties remain popular.
 

replicant

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As if there wasn't already enough to question MCain's judgement in the pick of his running mate:

http://www.zazzle.com/rosie_the_riveter_sarah_palin_shirt-235647055507113187

I opened up my newspaper to find this image on a sign at a McCain Palin rally. Apparently there are also t-shirts you can buy with it now.

I don't know who created this photoshop image, but it has to be one of the most offensive images I have ever seen. My grandmother was a Rosie the Riveter in San Francisco and made machine guns. Women bled, lost limbs, and died in those factories. Sarah Palin's face has no business being on that picture. It demonstrates McCain and Palin's utter contempt of the women who made the sacrifices, and the image of self sacrifice it represents.

I wonder how many older voters will feel the same.

And yes, I am aware that this image was used for Nancy Pelosi. I don't like Nancy Pelosi, I never voted for Nancy Pelosi. I never wanted her to be speaker of the house. I find any use of that image other than the original offensive.

I find any use of the Rosie the Riveter image other than the original picture of the unknown model from the 1940's to be extremely offensive, no matter what purpose or party it is used for.
 
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Urwumpe

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Palin is inexperienced, but not to the same extent as Obama.

Just take her explanations why many things happen and what is the foundation of her decisions. She is very quick to claim "It is Gods will" (Like in fact, many other people inside her Christian sect also claim). You might be surprised how often the McCain team is actually busy to say that she did not mean things that way. When McCain wins, you might start praying that he stays in good health for the next 5 years... because a president Palin would be about the worst nightmare, even worse than Bush, who also often cites God, but at least never as excuse for his politics.

Honestly, Obama is idealistic, but he has ground contact. Not the worst for a politician to believe in something, which is in his control. Also, he is so idealistic, that he believes, Europe should do this and that... :dry:
 

replicant

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Come now... I don't hate anybody. I dislike both the Republican and Democratic parties. It seems to me that Obama is too inexperienced for the job and too idealistic.

War is a "task from God" is not too idealistic?

Besides, since the convention, McCain's whole platform has been idealism.



Vice presidents in reality have little power in the government

Dick Cheney?

Palin has made some disturbing decisions, such as book banning, based on her fundamentalist brand of Christianity, but as VP none of these ideas will go through, particularly with a Democrat-dominated Senate. I should hope her near Macchiavellian boldness will find healthier outlets should McCain become president.

How many heartbeats does busted up old John McCain have left?


If I had it my way, I would vote third party, but that can't be a reality as long as only two political parties remain popular.

No doubt there, if only there were a better choice
 

eveningsky339

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War is a "task from God" is not too idealistic?
I would consider that bad theology. Many rulers have pointed to the heavens to support their ideas, but only the truly insane have continued on such a path when they discover that it is bad for their country in general.

Besides, since the convention, McCain's whole platform has been idealism.
He has some solid ground under his feet and some experience under his belt. Every politician has a bit of idealism in him, but most have some reality as well.


Dick Cheney?
His influence stemmed from the fact that Bush was simply horrible. I'd take Cheney over Bush any day of the week.

How many heartbeats does busted up old John McCain have left?
Enough to fix a few failed policies of Bush, I hope.

No doubt there, if only there were a better choice
Alas...

Just take her explanations why many things happen and what is the foundation of her decisions. She is very quick to claim "It is Gods will" (Like in fact, many other people inside her Christian sect also claim). You might be surprised how often the McCain team is actually busy to say that she did not mean things that way. When McCain wins, you might start praying that he stays in good health for the next 5 years... because a president Palin would be about the worst nightmare, even worse than Bush, who also often cites God, but at least never as excuse for his politics.
Good grief, she's Pentecostal? That would explain the bizarre twinkle in her eye... In an actual position of importance, when reality comes knocking, many rethink their religious motivation in the face of truth. Bush spent a lot of time talking about God's will at the start of the Iraq war, but this appeal dwindled as time went on.
 

Urwumpe

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Good grief, she's Pentecostal? That would explain the bizarre twinkle in her eye... In an actual position of importance, when reality comes knocking, many rethink their religious motivation in the face of truth. Bush spent a lot of time talking about God's will at the start of the Iraq war, but this appeal dwindled as time went on.

The reality of ruling 600,000 Alaskans did not seem to be enough already, do you think it is good risking 280 million US citizens?
 

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I think its pretty clear who the american people want to become president. Hint Hint(Barack Obama)
 

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Thread Locked, pending review from moderators
 

Tex

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Discriminating post plus responses removed, warning given to original poster. Thread re-opened.
 

FlyingSinger

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This whole thread is depressing on too many levels. It's interesting but not surprising that some of those best informed about what is going on in the USA are in Europe and Canada. They apparently have taken some time to learn about what Obama and McCain stand for before spouting streams of stereotypes and misconceptions. I guess many people really do vote with their reptilian brains.

I support Obama as someone who has truly thought about the problems we face in this country and who understands that we need to rejoin the world community. Whether he has a deep personal understanding of science and technology or not, he understands their importance, and their connection to energy, and the connection of developing alternative energy to a healthy and secure economy, and to developing a new path to growth and jobs. He also understands the fact that our educational system needs serious fixing if we are to have a chance in a future world dominated by countries that take education seriously (mostly in Asia).

I have no illusions that Obama is something magical, "the One" or whatever. But I've read his books and studied his positions. He's real. He's smart. He's practical. He cares. He knows he can't do it alone, and he will build a great team. He actually gets it. And McCain is clueless.

Obama and his campaign team have spelled out his positions and proposed solutions for many of the problems we face in great detail if you care to get better informed. It's all on his web site, and for more depth and background, in his books.

Palin is a thus far successful side show distracting people from the fact that the Republicans have no ideas other than "let's continue to take care of our friends." This distraction may work, and we may end up with a few more years of a Bush equivalent, followed by President Palin and the CTP (Christian Taliban Party). Who knows?

In the meantime I'm contributing and raising money for Obama, and will spend some of the next few weekends driving up to New Hampshire to talk with undecided voters (Massachusetts is pretty solidly blue). The last two presidential elections were decided by fewer than 10,000 votes in NH, so I will do what I can to convince a few people up there to go for Obama.

And BTW, Obama actually supports NASA quite strongly. See this 7 page PDF position paper, "Advancing the frontiers of space exploration."
 

jgrillo2002

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apologies for the post but I just dont think obama is ready to take action against the war on terror. plus since im a conservative republican think that hes going to raise taxes at us
 

Andy44

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This whole thread is depressing on too many levels. It's interesting but not surprising that some of those best informed about what is going on in the USA are in Europe and Canada. They apparently have taken some time to learn about what Obama and McCain stand for before spouting streams of stereotypes and misconceptions. I guess many people really do vote with their reptilian brains.

I support Obama...

So I guess I'm one of those uninformed, reptilian-brained Americans you must have been referring to in your first paragraph, since I do not, and since it is the nature of politics to characterize anyone who doesn't support your man as somewhat less informed or less intelligent. Explaining why you support your guy is one thing, but I could do without the insinuations, thank you. That kind of self-identification with people from countries that are supposedly smarter than us (aren't they all?) is one of the things that leads people to say Obama panders to elitists.
 

Cairan

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I think this whole intelligent vs patriotic thing is way over the top. Quite frankly, I don't think far-leaning Democrats would be referring to Republican-leaning persons as "uneducated", "less intelligent", "misinformed" if the other party had not hijacked the national symbols of the United States and referred to absolutely everyone not too thrilled about going in Irak (for Weapons of Mass Destruction, which have yet to be found 5 years later...) as "unpatriotic", "coward" or "friend of the enemy and enemy of the United States".:mad:

Turns out the real battle should have been concentrated on the Afghan-Pakistan border which is a practical joke in terms of national boundaries and control, and a military presence that as a Canadian I entirely support. I even got these "support our troops" yellow ribbons on my car and my cousin is going on a deployment soon. Godspeed.

Anyway, last time I checked, there are people with PhDs supporting the GOP, and the Stars and Stripes has yet to be trademarked by them.

So let's set aside these silly "unpatriotic", "unintelligent" non-arguments. Let's not go down to the level of the Begala and Sanchez of this world.

Thank you.:dry:
 

Andy44

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No, let's not. I never called anyone unpatriotic, and I am not a republican, nor do I support them any more than I support democrats. So, you see, I get it from both sides. The Demoblicans call me stupid and the republicrats call me unpatriotic. Never to my face, of course, always over the internet. Gets my hackles up.
 
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