OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

computerex

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1. Just because something is widely used it doesn't mean it is better then the alternatives. Saying that DirectX is better then OpenGL because DirectX is used more often is completely retarded. DirectX got lucky. It became popular, therefore the API became popular, then that lead to it being better supported by graphics vendors, etc. Instead of using lame reasons, Heilor, give us some real differences that make DirectX better then OpenGL. I am sure we can give you an equal number back proving the opposite.

Heilor said:
I'd venture to guess that a Windows machine with an AV and firewall is safer than a Linux machine without. Sure, the Linux machine would be safer with, but hey--there's so few viruses you can just do without, right? Yeah, until one of them finds you.

The number of malicious programs written for linux is less then a thousand, as opposed to a couple hundred thousand for Windows. Less then a thousand malicious programs ever written, not the number of programs that are in circulation, the number of programs ever written. The number in circulation is significantly less. Less then a thousand malicious programs targeted for the thing in circulation on the entire internet. I hope now you are beginning to appreciate the security of linux, and the chances of you contracting a harmful bug in it.
 
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Hielor

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1. Just because something is widely used it doesn't mean it is better then the alternatives. Saying that DirectX is better then OpenGL because DirectX is used more often is completely retarded. DirectX got lucky. It became popular, therefore the API became popular, then that lead to it being better supported by graphics vendors, etc. Instead of using lame reasons, Heilor, give us some real differences that make DirectX better then OpenGL. I am sure we can give you an equal number back proving the opposite.
Tommy gave you one. Here's another: DirectX has better driver support. :lol:

The number of malicious programs written for linux is less then a thousand, as opposed to a couple hundred thousand for Windows. Less then a thousand malicious programs ever written, not the number of programs that are in circulation, the number of programs ever written. The number in circulation is significantly less. Less then a thousand malicious programs targeted for the thing in circulation on the entire internet. I hope now you are beginning to appreciate the security of linux, and the chances of you contracting a harmful bug in it.
Wikipedia says that it was 863 in 2005 after having doubled during that year. Somehow I doubt your "less than a thousand" number still holds true.

And whoa, imagine that. An operating system that has a couple of orders of magnitude more home users has a couple of orders of magnitude more viruses out there. What a thought.

I also like how you object to me using "there are more games using DirectX than OpenGL" as evidence for DirectX being better, and yet you go and use "there are fewer viruses for Linux than Windows" as evidence for Linux being more secure.

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Yes, it was loosely specific to XP and pre-XP versions. I didn't do much research about Vista and Win7 security, but we're talking about Microsoft here. Not wanting to be an Microsoft-hater, but when it comes to security, it's products always lag behind.
Actually, if you look at a chart of specific security features incorporated by modern OSes, Windows is far from the back of the pack...

Propaganda is good for all. The market share has certainly increased for all, but since only Opera announced that big increase, I'll take that the others didn't experience the same.
So when I say "this is better because there are more things that use it," that's bad, but when you say "this is better because they said they had more downloads" that's good?

More widely used, more throughfully tested and with better driver/app support. I don't care much about UI, but I really hate BSODs and strange crashes.

Maybe I'll wait until SP2.
But..."more widely used" means nothing, remember?

Win7's app support is a strict superset of Vista's. If something worked in Vista, it works in Win7 (barring invalid assumptions on the part of the app maker).

As for BSODs, the vast majority of them come from buggy drivers or hardware. The driver model for Windows is very well documented, and if someone ignores that and publishes drivers that cause BSODs, that's not exactly Microsoft's fault.

Except that you generally don't have to. Most Windows software that one can legally download will work under Wine, and for files that aren't programs, I'm hard pressed to think of any format that nothing on Linux can read...
I'm lazy. I don't want to use WINE when I could just be running it natively.

Simple, you save whatever you anticipate needing on both systems on the NTFS side of your system (Or, although I haven't done this myself, use an ext driver for Windows).
Again, this is an extra step that I don't want to take.
 
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computerex

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Hielor said:
Tommy gave you one. Here's another: DirectX has better driver support. :lol:

I was asking more about the practical usage of the libraries. Better driver support is nothing but a consequence of DirectX's popularity, we are talking about the actual usage.


Heilor said:
Wikipedia says that it was 863 in 2005 after having doubled during that year. Somehow I doubt your "less than a thousand" number still holds true.

OK, that doesn't really matter because the number of viruses for Windows has increased too. Looking at the proportion of viruses my argument still holds.

heilor said:
And whoa, imagine that. An operating system that has a couple of orders of magnitude more home users has a couple of orders of magnitude more viruses out there. What a thought.

What is your point? I thought we had already established that, you seem to like repetition quite a lot. I will be courteous enough to repost:

computerex said:
For the record, I don't think anybody here can disagree with me when I say that linux is more secure then Windows, in the sense that a Windows machine will be compromised far more rapidly then a linux one (if only because Windows has a much bigger user base and as a result is targeted more). Then it makes sense to use a linux to handle sensitive stuff.

To make it blatantly simple to understand, I would rather live in a barren farm then a super-mega ultra fortress if it is riddled with criminals (as far as security is concerned).

That analogy was to simplify things for you. Please pay attention to my analogies next time. I won't otherwise waste my time writing nice analogies if you don't pay attention to them.

Heilor said:
I also like how you object to me using "there are more games using DirectX than OpenGL" as evidence for DirectX being better, and yet you go and use "there are fewer viruses for Linux than Windows" as evidence for Linux being more secure.

1. The insecurities of Windows are a consequence of more then just having a large user-base.
2. I was making fun of your convoluted reasoning.
3. You are kind of missing the point here ... Let me elaborate.

First, we need to agree on a definition of "security". In the end, it boils down to whether or not the OS can keep people from doing things against the user's volition. I think that is a pretty simple, good definition. Going by that definition, I think most experts would agree that linux is in fact more secure then Windows. But proving that by just observation, we see that linux seems to be less susceptible to malicious threats.

For one second, forget about the number of viruses. Heck, of the couple hundred thousand (now millions?) viruses for Windows, only a handful did a significant amount of damage. So it is not necessarily the number that matters, it also has to do with how susceptible the OS is.

ps. Pay close attention to any analogies I may have posted.
 
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Tommy

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Multiquote doesn't seem to like taking multiple quotes from the same post, but ALL the following quotes were originally posted by Hielor.

I still fail to see the reason to dual-boot in the first place. Win7 comes up from sleep or hibernate in a matter of seconds
Sleep and Hibernate both use power to maintain the fast re-start time. For people who use their laptop frequently that's not a problem. For people who use their laptop more sporadically that can be significant.

Where I work has no bearing on this conversation.
Given the topic, if you do work for Microsoft, then I would consider that highly relevant. It wouldn't be surprising if you supported the people who sign your paycheck. I don't recall you ever saying one way or the other whether you work for MS or not. If you have, I apologize, but if you haven't I challenge you to man up and tell us one way or the other.


Referring to viruses on Linux:
Wikipedia says that it was 863 in 2005 after having doubled during that year. Somehow I doubt your "less than a thousand" number still holds true.
As of this time, there are less than a half dozen Linux viruses "in the wild", none of which affect Kernals newer that 2.6.5 (which has been obsolete for almost three years). Even then, those viruses only affected a small minority of distro's available. There are already more viruses which affect Windows 7 as shipped TODAY.

Yes, if you take a bone-stock Windows machine and a bone-stock Linux machine, the Windows one will probably get infected faster.
This would seem significant, since most people use the "bone-stock", no matter what OS they use.

I'm lazy. I don't want to use WINE when I could just be running it natively.
I'm also lazy, and I don't want to have to install and maintain an Antivirus package when I can use an OS that doesn't need one. Nor do I want to have to install a firewall when my OS comes with a bi-directional firewall using stateful packet inspection already built into the kernel itself. The "firewall" included with Windows is uni-directional (last I heard, anyway - may be wrong with 7) and not terribly hard to bypass using scripts available online.

My main complaint against Hielor is that he has consistantly refused to acknowelge - much less address - my point that Windows (since Vista) has deliberately crippled my hardware with it's "protected path". Microsoft has clearly decided that big content providers (who haven't subsidized my hardware or Windows purchase whatsoever) have a greater right to determine what I can and can't do on MY computer than I (the PAYING CUSTOMER) do myself. Really. Justify that to me if you can. Is it in any way justifiable to treat me as a wanna be criminal who will "steal" content if only my OS allows it? Is it justifiable to actively attempt to prevent me from creating my own content? Does Microsoft have a right to control and limit my ability to create content it doesn't create, and has no part in creating, and doesn't hold any rights to whatsoever? Does "Big Media" have more rights than me? I think not!
 
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tl8

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I wonder if there is any correlation between the moon phase and this thread?
 

Face

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In an ideal world you would be right. Unfortunately in the real world Big Media has more money and more money == more rights.

This is so true and so sad...
 

MeDiCS

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I wonder if there is any correlation between the moon phase and this thread?
:rofl:

So when I say "this is better because there are more things that use it," that's bad, but when you say "this is better because they said they had more downloads" that's good?
You kinda missed the point. I didn't say, or at least it wasn't my intention, that number of downloads correlates to a specific software being better, but that this case shows that, when given a choice, people seem to choose what they think it is better, or, at least, something new to try out and even stick with. Popularity, specially when it's user base is far from knowledgeable (is that even a word?), doesn't mean a better product.

But..."more widely used" means nothing, remember?
Again, missed the point. Widely used means that there are more eyes testing and complaining if something breaks, from software experts to the kid that first uses it. Time and popularity does make a software better, but popularity alone doesn't make it good.

Win7's app support is a strict superset of Vista's. If something worked in Vista, it works in Win7 (barring invalid assumptions on the part of the app maker).
My point exactly (I'm using the word 'point' too much here...). It seems that there are still too many incompatibilities in newer Win OSes, specially with older software (F22-Raptor FTW), but also with hardware drivers.

This is changing though, specially with the XP compatibility mode.

I'm lazy. I don't want to use WINE when I could just be running it natively.
It isn't too hard to type "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install wine", and as Tommy said, if you can set up an AV and firewall properly, getting Wine (and installing most Linux distributions, for that matter) is not harder than what you're already used to, and for most programs, there is no difference between running it natively and running it under Wine.
 

orb

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Sleep and Hibernate both use power to maintain the fast re-start time.
Sleep does, but hibernation is storing memory and hardware state to file on disk which is non-volatile when power is off, so it shouldn't consume additional power for maintaining the fast re-start, but I don't know if it still holds the truth on Vista/Win7. At least WinXP/Linux implements hibernation like that.


And few cents from me on OS wars: I don't like when anybody tries to convince me that this or that system is the best, when I know either one or another OS. There is no best one. For me Windows is better for playing games designed for Windows, and Unix/Linux for doing other things I do on PC, and I haven't used Mac for 10 years, so I have no opinion on its systems. There might be more better OSes for some things on PC or Mac, but I haven't used them yet.

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:38 ----------

It isn't too hard to type "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install wine", and as Tommy said, if you can set up an AV and firewall properly, getting Wine (and installing most Linux distributions, for that matter) is not harder than what you're already used to, and for most programs, there is no difference between running it natively and running it under Wine.
apt-get? I typed `emerge --sync && emerge wine`.
 

MeDiCS

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apt-get? I typed `emerge --sync && emerge wine`.
And there's also Yum, Portage, ZYpp, etc. I was just illustrating how easy it is to use one :thumbup:.
 

Urwumpe

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I wonder if there is any correlation between the moon phase and this thread?

I am not sure. Maybe it is also the alignment of Venus and Mercury in the sky today.
 

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To whoever keeps updating this thread's title: you made me laugh this morning, thank you. :D
 

Hielor

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I was asking more about the practical usage of the libraries. Better driver support is nothing but a consequence of DirectX's popularity, we are talking about the actual usage.
I believe it was already established that neither of us has much practical experience with either library set. I've used both, but not extensively. From what I remember, they were both kind of terrible as far as what needs to be done to do something as simple as display a square on the screen.

While "DirectX has better driver support" is not really an advantage of DirectX itself but more of the ecosystem, it's still a reason I imagine many developers would select DirectX over OpenGL. If you consider just DirectX vs OpenGL on their own intrinsic merits in an isolated fashion, I have no idea who would win that fight, but the real world doesn't work in isolation. In the real world you also need to consider things like "better driver support."

That analogy was to simplify things for you. Please pay attention to my analogies next time. I won't otherwise waste my time writing nice analogies if you don't pay attention to them.
I've always lived in the suburbs. A farm doesn't really appeal to me (too far from everything), nor does a fortress full of criminals.

1. The insecurities of Windows are a consequence of more then just having a large user-base.
Windows isn't the only software package that suffers from such insecurities. Look at the mega-patch that Apple just released for Mac OS in the last week, fixing something like 90 vulnerabilities, 30 or so of which were RCE exploits (numbers may not be exact, that's just what I remember reading).

Such issues in Windows tend to get found and exploited a whole lot faster, though. If you're a malicious cracker, and it takes you an hour to find a vulnerability in any given piece of software, you're obviously going to spend that hour where it can have the greatest returns, which is on the software with the largest user-base.

First, we need to agree on a definition of "security". In the end, it boils down to whether or not the OS can keep people from doing things against the user's volition. I think that is a pretty simple, good definition. Going by that definition, I think most experts would agree that linux is in fact more secure then Windows. But proving that by just observation, we see that linux seems to be less susceptible to malicious threats.

For one second, forget about the number of viruses. Heck, of the couple hundred thousand (now millions?) viruses for Windows, only a handful did a significant amount of damage. So it is not necessarily the number that matters, it also has to do with how susceptible the OS is.
You're again trying to put these things in isolation and say "Look, when you factor out everything else, Linux is more secure!" That's not how the world works.

Of course, when you factor in everything else, Linux still counts as more secure because your chances of getting infected are low. I've never denied that. My only objection is to the way you lot are seeming to claim that "if you use Windows, you will get h4x0red and your bank accounts will be stolen."

Sleep and Hibernate both use power to maintain the fast re-start time. For people who use their laptop frequently that's not a problem. For people who use their laptop more sporadically that can be significant.
Hibernate does not draw any more power than "shut down" does, and I believe you can configure "sleep" to automatically become "hibernate" after it's been asleep for a couple of hours.

Given the topic, if you do work for Microsoft, then I would consider that highly relevant. It wouldn't be surprising if you supported the people who sign your paycheck. I don't recall you ever saying one way or the other whether you work for MS or not. If you have, I apologize, but if you haven't I challenge you to man up and tell us one way or the other.
Given that I don't get paid to post on these forums, I still don't see how it's relevant. That said, I haven't exactly made it a secret who I work for.

What's also irrelevant (I suppose) is that I do have some Linux machines sitting around my apartment. They're older machines that wouldn't do too well under Windows.

I'm also lazy, and I don't want to have to install and maintain an Antivirus package when I can use an OS that doesn't need one. Nor do I want to have to install a firewall when my OS comes with a bi-directional firewall using stateful packet inspection already built into the kernel itself. The "firewall" included with Windows is uni-directional (last I heard, anyway - may be wrong with 7) and not terribly hard to bypass using scripts available online.
I don't see how installing and maintaining an antivirus package is difficult. If you have one of the better ones, it installs with a few clicks, and it automatically updates itself.

The Windows Firewall is bi-directional as of Vista.

My main complaint against Hielor is that he has consistantly refused to acknowelge - much less address - my point that Windows (since Vista) has deliberately crippled my hardware with it's "protected path".
I haven't acknowledged or addressed this point because I don't know anything about it. I don't consume that much content, and the content I do consume is apparently immune to this issue because I've never run across it. I don't create content.

Microsoft has clearly decided that big content providers (who haven't subsidized my hardware or Windows purchase whatsoever) have a greater right to determine what I can and can't do on MY computer than I (the PAYING CUSTOMER) do myself. Really. Justify that to me if you can. Is it in any way justifiable to treat me as a wanna be criminal who will "steal" content if only my OS allows it?
I can't justify that, but I don't really know what the protected path does anyway, so I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Judging by how active torrent sites are, though, it seems quite possible to "steal" content still on Vista or 7.

Is it justifiable to actively attempt to prevent me from creating my own content? Does Microsoft have a right to control and limit my ability to create content it doesn't create, and has no part in creating, and doesn't hold any rights to whatsoever? Does "Big Media" have more rights than me? I think not!
And I agree with you, and nod and smile and say "that's nice" and "uh-huh" because I don't have any personal experience or knowledge of what you're talking about.

Unlike fans of some companies or software products, I've never claimed that Microsoft (or Windows) is infallible. For example, I think the UAC that shipped with Vista was a very bad idea, especially with the locking of the "Program Files" directory. That one issue caused me way too many headaches.

You kinda missed the point. I didn't say, or at least it wasn't my intention, that number of downloads correlates to a specific software being better, but that this case shows that, when given a choice, people seem to choose what they think it is better, or, at least, something new to try out and even stick with. Popularity, specially when it's user base is far from knowledgeable (is that even a word?), doesn't mean a better product.
Let's take a look at this ballot screen which Opera credits for their increased user base:
browser-ballot.jpg


If someone were to just make their decisions based upon those short descriptions, no *wonder* Opera's downloads are way up. Speed up my internet connection (not just my browsing)? Sign me up! :uhh:

My point exactly (I'm using the word 'point' too much here...). It seems that there are still too many incompatibilities in newer Win OSes, specially with older software (F22-Raptor FTW), but also with hardware drivers.
Unfortunately, yes. I agree.

This is changing though, specially with the XP compatibility mode.
XP Compat mode is great for some software, but not all. For example, I was able to use it to get Star Wars Rebellion running on my Win7 machine, which never would've worked without compatibility mode.

Unfortunately, XP Compatibility Mode programs don't have access to the machine's graphics hardware, so it won't work for many newer games (Orbiter included).

It isn't too hard to type "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install wine", and as Tommy said, if you can set up an AV and firewall properly, getting Wine (and installing most Linux distributions, for that matter) is not harder than what you're already used to, and for most programs, there is no difference between running it natively and running it under Wine.
You vastly overestimate the difficulty of setting up an AV and firewall, which requires no command prompt usage at all.

I'd imagine the average computer user would find a few clicks to install an AV rather simpler than "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install wine"...
 

Linguofreak

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And there's also Yum, Portage, ZYpp, etc. I was just illustrating how easy it is to use one :thumbup:.

I tend to use "Shortcut to Synaptic on Panel, enter password, type first few letters of package into search field, select package, repeat previous two steps for further packages, hit apply".

However you do it, it takes about 30 seconds of the users time over the lifetime of the installation to install Wine and NTFSprogs, and saves minutes and hours.
 

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Whoa! What a long post! Everything seems to be in order (at least regarding your replies to my post) except for this:
You vastly overestimate the difficulty of setting up an AV and firewall, which requires no command prompt usage at all.

I'd imagine the average computer user would find a few clicks to install an AV rather simpler than "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install wine"...
I wasn't really talking about the average computer user, but you, which I assume, does not having 'CLI-phobia'. Still, there are lot's of GUI frontends for package managers, such as Synaptic and Aptitude (for the APT system), and, because of that type of variety, it's common to say just 'apt-get upgrade' instead of making a checklist of things you should click in order.

But true, setting up an AV and firewall isn't that difficult. The problem arises later, when dealing with false-positives, port forwarding and permission and taking care of these details.

Ah, yes, what you said about Opera may be true. Or not :shrug:.
 

Hielor

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Whoa! What a long post! Everything seems to be in order (at least regarding your replies to my post) except for this:
Yeah, sorry...I kinda started, adn then kept going and going and going...

I wasn't really talking about the average computer user, but you, which I assume, does not having 'CLI-phobia'. Still, there are lot's of GUI frontends for package managers, such as Synaptic and Aptitude (for the APT system), and, because of that type of variety, it's common to say just 'apt-get upgrade' instead of making a checklist of things you should click in order.
Oh yes, I have no trouble doing this at all, and have done it in the past (though I used slapt-get, since I was on Slackware).

The "package management" system doesn't seem to me like it's the most user-friendly to non-technically-inclined people...
 

ar81

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Vista annoyance

When you press Alt Tab it does not switch between the same two instances of a program, but it seems to make random jumps, and that's annoying.

Post here your Vista / Windows 7 annoyances.
 

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In windows 7 there is no real indication what settings only affect the current user and which are system wide...
 

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Can this be a Win7 annoyances too?

I have a good one. Win7 apparently has this new thing called homegroup.
More details

Which looking at all its features was looking pretty nice, like automatic P2P data encryption ext ext. Which I thought was pretty cool at first, buuuutt as it turns out (of course) it doesnot work with anything other than Win7. So the XP computer, the one which I was trying to transfer data over to the new 7 machine, would not connect to 7 initially. (oh and it was over a crossover cable)

I noticed 7 still falls back to work group when homegroup is disabled so I tried that, and still no luck. After about 30 mins I tried statically assigning an IP to both machines, and pinged back and forth. The ping from the XP to 7 worked, but 7 to XP did not. Then I noticed she had Norton installed...

Soon thereafter I got everything started transferring OK, then the person I was working for, asked if I could 'burn everything to a floppy' :beathead:

Ended up burning everything on 2 DVDs.

The biggest pain with 7/Vista is largely they are incompatible with XP.
 

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Alt-tab works just fine, and that's not a win7 annoyance, that's a 'you had a firewall on' annoyance. Homegroup works alongside of normal sharing, not in place of it.
 
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