Request Shuttle Fleet Ultra

[Eagle1Division]

I'm really surprised I haven't seen this yet...

So Shuttle Fleet has a lot of very awesome features for the space shuttle, off the to of my head:
1. New, much more realistic SFX
2. Much better simulation of engine sounds
3. Abort and other calls to/from houston and the Shuttle.
4. GPC MFD - Ascent trajectory display (OPS1)
5. Reentry trajectory display (OPS3)
6. Horz. Situation Display (OPS4)
7. OMS/MPS MEDS Display (OPS6)
8. Landing Sites for OPS3 & OPS4, including TAL site(s).

And Space Shuttle Ultra:
1. Working APU systems
2. Basic Engine operation
3. CRT MFD - OMS 1 & OMS 2
4. CRT MFD - APU/Hydraulics (Incomplete)
5. CRT MFD - UNIV PTG
6. CRT MFD - MM202 (OMS Burn)
7. CRT MFD - DAP
8. CRT MFD - SPI
9. CRT MFD - OMS/MPS MEDS (Incomplete)
10. complex ET door umbilical operation
11. complex Payload bay door & radiator operation.

Both of these mods have RMS robotic arm operation, ascent autopilots, and improved external graphics.


Why aren't they merged together?

For shuttle fleet - it would add all the features listed from shuttle ultra
for shuttle ultra - it would add all the features from shuttle fleet.

I understand they're coded very differently, but at least some things could be intergrated.

The Shuttle Ultra shuttle is far more complex with the operating APU's and other systems, so it would be the base. The MFD's could be merged into CRT MFD, so that when "OPS 1" is entered into CRT MFD it loads GPC MFD's "OPS 1" mode, and same for OPS 3, 4, and 6. (Shuttle Fleet's OMS/MPS MEDS mode (OPS6) is more complete than SSU's, at least in my version, 1.05)

The sound scripts and effects of the various radio calls, and the SFX for the OMS engines and SSME's could be pasted into SSU.

And finally - the name Space Shuttle Fleet Ultra - designates neither one as superior, so hopefully the concept shouldn't spark any loyalty wars, and credit can be shared among both teams for development.

 

[DaveS]

Please take a look here: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55

 

[Urwumpe]

SSU is open-source, Shuttle Fleet is not, simple as that. Also there are many differences under the hood. SSU is a spacecraft simulation down to the nuts and bolts level, Shuttle Fleet rather a mission simulation, which has more emphasis on what happened than how it happened.

 

[Eagle1Division]

SSU is open-source, Shuttle Fleet is not, simple as that. Also there are many differences under the hood. SSU is a spacecraft simulation down to the nuts and bolts level, Shuttle Fleet rather a mission simulation, which has more emphasis on what happened than how it happened.

That seems like a somewhat poor reason for either side to refuse cooperation. But I guess if the authors of Shuttle Fleet want to keep their developments to themselves, that's they're right. However annoying :dry:

 

[Urwumpe]

That seems like a somewhat poor reason for either side to refuse cooperation. But I guess if the authors of Shuttle Fleet want to keep their developments to themselves, that's they're right. However annoying :dry:

Psst, not to tell you something surprising: I don't see you contribute to SSU as well.

If you want, you can ALWAYS take the source code of SSU and create your own space shuttle simulation from it. Just the legal status of the meshes and textures is on another sheet - it still needs clarification.

 

[David413]

Thanks, the pressure is off now...

That seems like a somewhat poor reason for either side to refuse cooperation. But I guess if the authors of Shuttle Fleet want to keep their developments to themselves, that's they're right. However annoying :dry:

I spend the better part of this past weekend working on documentation for the upcoming Shuttle Fleet, ISS Fleet, etc. and when I log on to the forum, I see an individual who knows better than all of us together. Thanks, I can take my time now, perhaps an autumn release will be soon enough.

Dave

 

[Donamy]

I spend the better part of this past weekend working on documentation for the upcoming Shuttle Fleet, ISS Fleet, etc. and when I log on to the forum, I see an individual who knows better than all of us together. Thanks, I can take my time now, perhaps an autumn release will be soon enough.

Dave

Make sure it's a Tuesday. :tiphat:

 

[Mantis]

That seems like a somewhat poor reason for either side to refuse cooperation. But I guess if the authors of Shuttle Fleet want to keep their developments to themselves, that's they're right. However annoying :dry:

You can't just merge two completely different code-bases together like that. It wouldn't work even if those parties invovled were willing to try. There is nothing annoying or unusual about the author of the Shuttle Fleet wanting to keep his hard work closed source - he's well within his right in doing so. His work is his own and we should be thankful that he chooses to share it with us in it's finished compiled form at at no charge despite the long hours spent creating it.

 

[Wishbone]

Never mind the p-nut gallery...

 

[Saturn V]

More or less the same difference between AMSO & NASSP. The objectives of each appeal to different segments of Orbiter users. Be thankful you have both...AND the freedom to choose.

 

[David413]

More or less the same difference between AMSO & NASSP. The objectives of each appeal to different segments of Orbiter users. Be thankful you have both...AND the freedom to choose.

I actually had the same thought.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[n122vu]

More or less the same difference between AMSO & NASSP. The objectives of each appeal to different segments of Orbiter users. Be thankful you have both...AND the freedom to choose.

Same as Windows vs. Mac, or vs. Linux, etc.

Example:
Linux is open-source, Windows is not. Also there are many differences under the hood. Linux can be a customizable operating system down to the nuts and bolts level. Windows is purely an operating system, with more emphasis on running programs than teaching you how the OS or its programs work.

To me this is equivalent to asking Linus Torvalds, Steve Ballmer, and (until recently) Steve Jobs to quit their bickering and join together to make one awesome operating system, and saying its annoying that they haven't done so already. While it sounds good, half of why tech gets better is staying ahead of, or doing something different or sooner than, the other guy.

SSU does what it does, and well. Likewise with the Shuttle Fleet. As an aspiring addon developer, I fully appreciate the amount of time it takes to produce an addon, and I realize not everyone has this perspective. Many are better coders than me and have been at C++ for many more years, and still it requires time and commitment, and putting a lot of yourself into a project.

Frankly I feel it inappropriate, maybe even a bit disrespectful, to come and lay out a list of why you think things should change on both projects, and call it annoying that they aren't that way already. Have you read any of the development threads for either project? If so, kudos, but if not, I respectfully suggest you take a look and see where each project is currently, and what future plans are, see if there are opportunities to offer suggestions with each, before criticizing both projects in one fell swoop.

I'll get off my soap box now...

 

[Eagle1Division]

This thread's made some... err... progress :blink:

Psst, not to tell you something surprising: I don't see you contribute to SSU as well.

If you want, you can ALWAYS take the source code of SSU and create your own space shuttle simulation from it. Just the legal status of the meshes and textures is on another sheet - it still needs clarification.

I have neither the knowledge or the time. This is work done by entire teams of people over months, maybe even years. I can't exactly cook that up myself, without even knowledge of C++.

Btw, I've got a neat idea for SSME exhaust I'd actually like to propose contributing, though I can only create it using the spacecraft3.dll xP.
I want to actually make it before I propose it though.

You can't just merge two completely different code-bases together like that. It wouldn't work even if those parties invovled were willing to try. There is nothing annoying or unusual about the author of the Shuttle Fleet wanting to keep his hard work closed source - he's well within his right in doing so. His work is his own and we should be thankful that he chooses to share it with us in it's finished compiled form at at no charge despite the long hours spent creating it.

On the technical side, it wouldn't be so impossible. Most of what I'm referring to is the MFD's. Wouldn't it be possible to have the code of two MFD's within a single data file, and have them refer to eachother? I.E., CRT MFD would run, but when you enter OPS1, 3, 4 or 6, it would load GPC MFD and stop the CRT MFD script. When you go to the menu from GPC MFD, it would stop the GPC MFD and go to the CRT MFD script's menu.

What's somewhat confusing is that it was created for the purpose of being shared with the community - but by being closed-source it's not really being shared.

But of course, it's only a complaint with absolutely no weight - if he wants it closed source, it is his right to do so. It's his hard work, and his to keep if he so chooses.

I spend the better part of this past weekend working on documentation for the upcoming Shuttle Fleet, ISS Fleet, etc. and when I log on to the forum, I see an individual who knows better than all of us together. Thanks, I can take my time now, perhaps an autumn release will be soon enough.

Dave

Look, I meant absolutely no disrespect. I've done only a small amount of modding to different games before, and I know it takes a tremendous amount of time to even get the smallest bit done, and coding these things by hand in C++? That's tough! And of course I greatly appreciate that people are willing to do this - unpaid - either just for the sake of doing it, to make the mod, or to share it with the community. It's actually noble.

But the space shuttle is one vehicle... It's kind of odd there are two mods about it... Okay, I can understand one is more in-depth, down to the switch-flipping, and the other is more of the experience overall, but still, by withholding stuff like the comms SFX and MFD's, it's only forcing the SSU team to work harder. If SSU is open source - then I can't say the reverse. This is the information age, you don't lose anything by giving - except a little competition by somehow being able to say "mine is better" (despite the fact they're apples and oranges, a matter of preference, where none is better than the other). If both the teams collaborated, in areas common to both - such as special effects, MFD's, sound effects, etc, then as a whole everyone would be better off.



And you don't need to explain how it's like Apple and Microsoft. I'm a big fan of Capitalism and competition. But these are addons people are making either for the sake of making them, because they enjoy it, to give to the community, or just because they want to see it done. Nobody's getting paid here, and by sharing an idea neither party loses anything.

If Apple shared ideas with Microsoft, then there would be no competition on the market, and a monoply.

If Microsoft took Apple's information, where billions of dollars are involved, this could be a serious crime and injustice against Apple.

But these aren't two enormous corporations. These are two teams of hobbyists doing a great job at something wonderful - the same wonderful thing, actually. If Shuttle Fleet authors don't want their work taken - then the collaborative project could be closed-source.


And now, say I do make a package of special effects, just for the space shuttle? (I have done a fair amount of work on RCS effects to mimic real-life appearance, if I can find where all that went...)

If I contributed to Shuttle Fleet, would that make it illegal to contribute it to SSU? What about the reverse?

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 PM ----------

P.S.

Make sure it's a Tuesday. :tiphat:

It's gotta be the Tuesday, after the first Monday in November, on an even-numbered year
(International forums... That's voting day for elections in the U.S.)

 

[Donamy]

I think the two different addons are good for the community and nubes. IMHO Fleet is for anyone who enjoys simulating shuttle missions, along with Thorton's ISS addon, anyone can use them. By being closed-sourse the authors are able to keep them pretty stable, for the most part, so the average Orbinaut won't get frustrated, when things don't run properly. If they do have problems, it's usually an easy fix and the person learns the ins and outs of Orbiter more easily. SSU on the other hand is a more hard-core experience, if you will, where there are alot more problems because of the constant changes, not to mention the difficulty in just getting on your computer (damn, I mentioned it). Hopefully, things get better.