Discussion Solving the problems of space combat in Orbiter

Hielor

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Well, those who "established" it should be more accurate with their statements.
Stealth doesnt' mean invisible. It means less observable than ordinary. That is, if "standart" spaceship has 1000m^2 RCS (Radar CrossSection here), a ship of same size with 10m^2 (and that means detectable only 100 times closer) is stealth. Nothing more, nothing less.
Radar is not the only method used to detect objects in space. If you're doing anything at all onboard the ship, its heat signature would be rather higher than the background radiation.

Moreover, we currently have the technology to track objects the size of peanuts (those counterweights, I think it was), so I doubt that any vessel of useful size would be able to hide.
 

DarkWanderer

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If you're doing anything at all onboard the ship, its heat signature would be rather higher than the background radiation.
What do you mean by "higher"? ;)

Moreover, we currently have the technology to track objects the size of peanuts
What's better: to be detected at 10,000 km or at 10,000,000, considering an example weapons range of ~20,000-30,000 (quarter of a high orbit)? I'll personally choose first and shoot from 15,000...

Also, the more powerful is the radar, the larger ARM will fly in.
 

Andy44

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In a shooting war, the command authority has already thought out its plans.

Nobody ever thinks out their plans. And when the shooting starts, your plans are quickly all wrong, anyway. The enemy is not following your script.

I am picking nits here. It would be the political authority that would be the major "waffler". The military would be very annoyed that their assets moved from advantage for no good reason. Don't pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy something thought process type of thing. The economics and political distrust of such a move is incredible. Moving a fleet, dropping only 1 to 2 bombs and then saying, Oops, I didn't mean it.... The other side has already committed by this time. It would be too late to back out.

It's the political authority's perogative to "waffle" when his only choice is to shoot everything and decide to do it in the next ten minutes before he loses everything. If this annoys the military, tough s**t; they are paid to subordinate themselves to the civil authority and they had better like it.

They can always mutiny, of course, and in that case fire of 1 or 2 bombs before getting brought back under control. In this case, it would be nice if there was time to communicate what has happened to the other side before they murder your country.

With space warfare, at least with current levels of tech, the MAD principle applies. If you are going to use it, use it, because the other side will. There will be no nobility or chivalry in this style of warfare. Do it to them before they do it to us.

Yes, with missiles in silos 30 minutes from being wiped out, MAD applies. But we are not talking about this level of tech. We are talking about stationing nukes aboard vessels which are at least hours away from weapons delivery and the point of no return.

This is what I'm trying to tell you: keeping nukes on hair trigger alert gives you no time to think. Placing them far enough away that they take time to get here, but cannot be stopped, gives you time to think and change your mind. It also gives the enemy a very good reason not to attack you. (Until he evens up the tech with his own space force, which is our scenario).

I never said anything about chivalry, the concern is for your own nation's childrens' futures. Even if you wipe out the enemy and take not a single hit yourself, you are making life a lot harder for your own nation.

But since you mentioned it, there is still a place for the law of war in this sort of conflict, since the space war scenario means the weapons are no longer automatically going to hit.

In any case, if you are so stubborn that you cannot imagine a non-MAD scenario, or cannot imagine ways to disrupt comm, why even bother talking about this? It's obvious that you are happy with MAD as is and would never have to fight a space war in the first place, which is what this thread is about.

Detection is the key. EM radiation jamming is not as usefull as it once was. Fiber optic command and control backbones on the ground. Major telescopes of all sorts hooked in. Lased light communications from the ground can issued orders. Jammers themselves look like a bright star in EM.

Nuclear protocol still exists, because once the fleet is launched, then it becomes hard to contact.

The two above statements are in conflict with each other. If I can't disrupt your comms, then by definition you can contact your ships. "Nuclear protocol" allowed Kennedy to scramble B-52s in 1962 and send them to staging areas, without committing them to a nuclear attack. This a similar system, except that my space warships are capable of staying on station for months at a time and are far less vulnerable than a B-52.

Some other things: fiber optics cannot talk to spaceships. Antennae and laser terminals are vulnerable to physical attack (as are fiber optic lines), even if jamming is not reliable. By bomb, missile, or commando raid if need be. There are ALWAYS ways to disrupt comm, you just have to use your imagination.

All in all, you have to make some assumptions if you want to simulate a space war. If it's alternate history you can even use current or historical tech. This sort of scenario could theoretically have taken place in the 1970s.

As for detection being easy, all that stuff (but it's good stuff, I admit!) on the projectrho.com page is theory. In real life there are always practical reasons why tech doesn't reach its theoretical potential. The Space Shuttle is a perfect example of a system that is theoretically capable of doing much more than it can in reality.

In order to have a playable wargame, we have to make some assumptions about this stuff, which may not be perfect. But you can always change these assumptions and intial conditions and see what effect it has on the scenario, which is the purpose of a wargame (other than having fun, which is my purpose).
 
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Frogisis

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Maybe, it's better to go away from "high theory" and think of particular weapons that would be used in such conditions - because weapons are half of what defines tactics.

Hear, hear! In that spirit I did this sketch of how I envision a more advanced military spacecraft:
space_gunship.jpg
Of course it has some flair to make it look a little more cool and fun than the real thing probably would appear, but the idea is quite basic:
- To save on mass, only the front and sides are fully armored, the idea being that the powerful RCS would allow it to stay turned toward the main source of attack. Armored shutters or something similar can quickly close over the delicate laser optics and other sensitive parts. The armor's probably some lightweight, futuristic carbon-saturated ablative thingy. If spacecraft are fighting each other, though, I'd imagine even civilian ships would be armored since there'd probably be quite a debris problem.
- The edges of the radiators are armored, leaving only the main surface unprotected. As long as the vessel is turned directly towards the attacker, the radiators, propellant tank, and engine are in shadow from any explosions or direct laser attack.
- Fitted with a boost stage and an erosion shield before battle to carry it to the target area. Maybe the booster could have a second set of "retro" nozzles facing back over the ship, like those old Goddard rockets that had the nozzle on top, so it can decelerate without turning around and can keep the shield pointed at the target. Or maybe sometimes it can just keep going and make only one pass, if they're willing to throw it away or go pick it up later.
- It has the three "basic" space weapons everyone always imagines (nukes, lasers, railguns), for us to play around with and guess how they might work. I envision the railgun as being a one-hit kill but not often connecting, while the missiles erode layers of armor to the point where the lasers can punch through.
- Not a torchship by any means, but has enough dV (a few dozen kps?) to maneuver tactically and change planes a few times, i.e. capable of actual adaptive "combat" with other orbiting spacecraft, instead of just a "salvo" or a "strike."
- A.I. Controlled for survivability and for sudden bursts of high-g acceleration.

Obviously something like this would be the product of a civilization centuries in advance of ours, but frankly I'm not that interested in near-term space combat, for a lot of reasons people have already mentioned - The other reason being that it seems kind of a poverty to not take advantage of the entire Solar System, as long as Orbiter models it for us. Setting it in the far future allows you to experiment a lot more (Go ahead and nuke Earth; it's not the end of the world), or at least paint the scenario with a broader brush, as well. While I do think a whimsical '70s-era campaign with cannon-equipped space planes could be a lot of fun (maybe they never invented powerful computers, and Earth turned out to be low on fossil fuels and uranium...!), trying to hew too close to real-life situations seems to me like an invitation to get bogged down in minutiae: We just have to take a lot of the backstory as given, because if modern space combat were perfectly practical and reasonable in every way, it likely would have happened already. Since the physics is taken care of for us already, I think a good path to take would be coming up with some engineering that passes the giggle test but still makes for exciting and (relatively) unpredictable battles. If nothing else you could have an MMU scenario where you have to chase and shoot the spy escaping with The McGuffin.

Definitely this, too:
Andy44 said:
In order to have a playable wargame, we have to make some assumptions about this stuff, which may not be perfect. But you can always change these assumptions and intial conditions and see what effect it has on the scenario, which is the purpose of a wargame (other than having fun, which is my purpose).

Modern spacecraft remind me of hot air balloons, and there's a reason we never read about fiery, daring balloon-dogfights. They were used for recon (if memory serves) just like modern spacecraft, but generations later the technology advanced far enough for epic air wars people will probably still be making movies about when equally compelling space battles have become a reality.
 
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Albinon

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In any case, if you are so stubborn that you cannot imagine a non-MAD scenario, or cannot imagine ways to disrupt comm, why even bother talking about this? It's obvious that you are happy with MAD as is and would never have to fight a space war in the first place, which is what this thread is about.

Guilty as charged. I learned war in the 70's and spent a couple of days with my parents in a cellar during the fracas in 1962. You can liken me to those that cashiered Gen. Billy Mitchell. I am too old to fully appreciate these new fangled ideas.

If stipulated that a self-controlled military is in place (Our sub force has a limited leeway for this) then, yes I see that Comm would be a more important aspect of this scenario. Algorythms can be made to fudge the data comm provides as part of your jamming/intereference. It would also make multi-player a lot more interesting.

As to those Orions in high orbit, They would be heavily armored just by their nature. Capable of taking a lot of damage. I would compare them to the B-17 of WWII. Add some point-defense weaponry to them for ASAT and interceptor defense.

As for interceptors them selves, I feel that due to orbital mechanics, interceptor on interceptor combat would only happen by chance. And would be over quickly as already mentioned. I still feel AI or Remote controlled interceptors are the thing to use.

What about "Patriot" missiles to shoot down bombs that are released. Ground based and near important targets, they might have some use.
 

Andy44

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Guilty as charged. I learned war in the 70's and spent a couple of days with my parents in a cellar during the fracas in 1962. You can liken me to those that cashiered Gen. Billy Mitchell. I am too old to fully appreciate these new fangled ideas.

If stipulated that a self-controlled military is in place (Our sub force has a limited leeway for this) then, yes I see that Comm would be a more important aspect of this scenario. Algorythms can be made to fudge the data comm provides as part of your jamming/intereference. It would also make multi-player a lot more interesting.

As to those Orions in high orbit, They would be heavily armored just by their nature. Capable of taking a lot of damage. I would compare them to the B-17 of WWII. Add some point-defense weaponry to them for ASAT and interceptor defense.

As for interceptors them selves, I feel that due to orbital mechanics, interceptor on interceptor combat would only happen by chance. And would be over quickly as already mentioned. I still feel AI or Remote controlled interceptors are the thing to use.

What about "Patriot" missiles to shoot down bombs that are released. Ground based and near important targets, they might have some use.

For starters, I wouldn't model Orions unless we are doing a 1970s "what-if" scenario. My preference would be nuclear-thermal rockets, which would be easier to launch, both technically and politically, and would be suitable for either historical or futuristic scenarios. They would be less able to take punishment than an Orion, of course.

I also agree with you that most of the space vehicles in this scenario would be unmanned. You could even automate the aforementioned warships if you really wanted to, but as these need to be maintained anyway it's nice to have some real-meat brains out there to think outside the box in odd situations. For the same reason we can automate bombers and submarines but choose not to, I guess. Also, there is a cultural factor at work; people prefer nuclear-armed vehicles to be piloted by humans, even if it doesn't make complete tactical or technical sense.

About shooting down incoming warheads, yeah sure, why not? The US currently has a limited ability to do this right now. Anything to add to the fun of the game, as long as it doesn't completely violate physics, I suppose.

The thing about this scenario is that stationing nukes on spaceships to make them less vulnerable only works until the technology to nullify that invulnerability matures. This scenario represents the transition time of this technology. Similar to the dawn of the aircraft carrier age between wars, when battleships were on the brink of obselesence but still ruled the waves for the time being. Our warships are still powerful, but no longer invincible, which is why Nation A feels frisky enough to go for it.

Envisioning all this stuff on paper is fun and not too difficult; but simulating it in Orbiter would be quite a project!
 

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Envisioning all this stuff on paper is fun and not too difficult; but simulating it in Orbiter would be quite a project!

Getting to the meat of our issue.

Ever see the movie "Space Cowboys" with James Garner and Clint Eastwood? There could be your launcher. Automated and capable of staying out a long time. With automated servicing and an occasionall manned visit, I think it is feasible in the near future.

Putting the vehicles together and making a damage engine is small potatoes. The work is in the utilities like comm, interference/jamming, and intercept.

Now to a previous question: How many objects can Orbiter support before becoming overloaded (no pun intended)?
 

escapetomsfate

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Getting to the meat of our issue.

Ever see the movie "Space Cowboys" with James Garner and Clint Eastwood? There could be your launcher. Automated and capable of staying out a long time. With automated servicing and an occasionall manned visit, I think it is feasible in the near future.

Putting the vehicles together and making a damage engine is small potatoes. The work is in the utilities like comm, interference/jamming, and intercept.

Now to a previous question: How many objects can Orbiter support before becoming overloaded (no pun intended)?

It's more a case of how many triangles (how complex the mesh is). And I don't think it's many. 100-200 bullets would cause a CTD, even if they were preloaded. Orbiter needs a better rendering engine before we will see big battles.
 

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That's all fine and dandy, but as has been established several times in this thread--there is no stealth in space. End of story.

That is why a rock the size of the Sistine Chapel got within 40KM of earth before it was discovered.

Lots of NEO out there that can be used. Even an old Saturn V 3rd stage in a earth-moon trojan orbit. A little squirt of delta-v and presto. Incoming! Looks harmless. The last few kps would happen close in giving defender the least chance of reaction time.

Detection is what you make of it. Our subs are huge and powerfull. Yet they go slow and quiet and have a lot of absortion material on them. Unless you know every object out there, detection is not a slam dunk. True, the closer in you are, the easier it is. But who says your starting point is in the Earth-moon system? An apollo orbit would be ideal. Hitching a ride on an existing rock would be an option. Not with our current tech, but near term it is possible.
 

Hielor

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It's more a case of how many triangles (how complex the mesh is). And I don't think it's many. 100-200 bullets would cause a CTD, even if they were preloaded. Orbiter needs a better rendering engine before we will see big battles.
Why would 100-200 bullets cause a CTD? When I made my minigun, the bullet mesh had at least 20 polygons in it and at one point I had like 600 of them in flight at the same time.
 

escapetomsfate

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Why would 100-200 bullets cause a CTD? When I made my minigun, the bullet mesh had at least 20 polygons in it and at one point I had like 600 of them in flight at the same time.

Sorry, just an estimation from my experiences. Btw, did you preload those meshes, and with which API? OBSP isn't coping well with complex meshes, so I'm curious to find out how I could make it run smoother.
 

Hielor

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Sorry, just an estimation from my experiences. Btw, did you preload those meshes, and with which API? OBSP isn't coping well with complex meshes, so I'm curious to find out how I could make it run smoother.
I didn't do anything special for it, the bullets were individual vessels and when the weapon "reloaded" it just created a vessel of the "Bullet" type.

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

Add'l info: Machine was an Athlon 64 3400+ @ 2.4GHz with 1GB of DDR400 ram and a GeForce 6800 GT 256MB (AGP).
 

escapetomsfate

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I didn't do anything special for it, the bullets were individual vessels and when the weapon "reloaded" it just created a vessel of the "Bullet" type.

Interesting. Do you know exactly how many were spawned? And btw, could I download it somewhere? :p
 

Hielor

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Interesting. Do you know exactly how many were spawned? And btw, could I download it somewhere? :p
I currently have it tuned down so that if the gun is left firing (as it will be, since there's no way to turn it off) there will be approximately 200 bullets in flight at a time from a single minigun. 10 are spawned each second, and 20 seconds after they are fired they delete themselves. The 600 number is from having 3 miniguns in a turret.

The bullets are rather small and would disappear from view quickly (which is realistic) given their very small "size" value. Each one also had an animation which would result in the bullet appearing "stretched" as a result of its high rate of motion (especially nice for the tracer rounds). The bullets would also "teleport" through the atmosphere to prevent them from leaving a plasma trail.

No, it can't be downloaded anywhere currently. I'll look into putting all of my weaponry stuff together and maybe release as an open source sample kind of thing.
 

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You shouldn't crash orbiter until you start getting near max_int number of vessels. However your performance will degrade to unplayable long before then.
 

Andy44

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For a space war scenario we could cut down on the number of vessels by sticking to guided missiles and energy weapons, and forget about bullets, which would be difficult to target at long ranges and high relative velocities.

They would be useful in some scenarios, though, such as the X-20 satellite kill technique discussed by sputnik in the Dynasoar thread. In that case, a minigun would be overkill. Destroying the average satellite is a matter of one or two well-placed bullets at close range.
 

Hielor

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They would be useful in some scenarios, though, such as the X-20 satellite kill technique discussed by sputnik in the Dynasoar thread. In that case, a minigun would be overkill. Destroying the average satellite is a matter of one or two well-placed bullets at close range.
But the minigun definitely has the cool factor. My roommate kept pointing out how impractical it was, but man did it have the cool factor.
 

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I wouldn't place a minigun on a spacecraft, those things have a tendency to jam and they heat up a lot. A chaingun would be a better option since the cycling action is mechanically assisted instead of relying on recoil. That would eliminate misfires and most stoppages which could lead to a mission abort.
 

Hielor

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I wouldn't place a minigun on a spacecraft, those things have a tendency to jam and they heat up a lot. A chaingun would be a better option since the cycling action is mechanically assisted instead of relying on recoil. That would eliminate misfires and most stoppages which could lead to a mission abort.
But...but...the COOL factor!
 

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I think for Orbiter most interesting to play would be interplanetary combat missions set in a future when there are multiple colonies in space habitats and on various moons throughout the solar system.

Some combat missions I just thought up.

1. You pilot a space warship from the Jupiter to asteroid belt to capture valuable asteroid mine, but first you have to deal with the mine`s defenses which might include some smaller short range gunships, buried missile silos and laser facility.

2. You lead a fleet of ships on a mission from Earth to outer system to suppress insurgency in outer system`s colonies and prevent them from launching an attack against inner system.

3. In an all out war between inner and outer system you lead a fleet from outer system on a mission to nuke all major military bases and industry centers on Mars and Earth while your opponent tries to do the same to you.

To get around the solar system in reasonable time and still be able of high delta v tactical maneuvering combat ships should have delta V of several hundred km/s
 
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