Request SSTO VTOVL

[Andy44]

If it's a realistic SSTO, it won't be loading its own cargo. It'll be loaded and unloaded at the pad or in the hanger, like Space Shuttle. Carrying the mass of the crane is a waste of mass, especially when you consider that this thing is not sci fi, it'll take several days or weeks to be turned around between flights in order to service the engines and check out the TPS, etc.

I bet it would be faster and cheaper to turn around than Shuttle, though.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

BTW, the concept of using LOX extracted from the atmosphere in a rocket is not complete nonsense, but it's difficult. Liquid air, on the other hand, has been studied for a long time, and was considered in many early Space Shuttle proposals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_air_cycle_engine

 

[Eagle]

If it's a realistic SSTO, it won't be loading its own cargo. It'll be loaded and unloaded at the pad or in the hanger, like Space Shuttle. Carrying the mass of the crane is a waste of mass, especially when you consider that this thing is not sci fi, it'll take several days or weeks to be turned around between flights in order to service the engines and check out the TPS, etc.

To be fair there is a big manipulator arm (Canadarm) on the shuttle that functions like a crane when in orbit. Not exactly the same thing, but parallel mission roles.

I suppose you'd see a gravity dependent extending boom & winch more on a lunar or martian lander where ground handling might not be as convenient as on Earth. Its less useful if its a LEO only launcher, but refuel it on orbit and you've got an interplanetary craft.

 

[Andy44]

I don't think the Canadarm can even lift its own weight on the ground, though. Making it lightweight enough for the orbiter meant giving it just enough strength to work in freefall. Plus, the Space Shuttle is not a SSTO, so it can carry more junk aboard.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

That's actually looking quite cool. I like the pattern near the bottom. It looks functional.

 

[CigDriver]

mc_ - I haven't done all the calculations to figure out payload yet, but I doubt you will be able to fill it with heavy UCGO boxes and take off from earth.

No name yet, I'm just calling it "Stubby" for now :lol:

Sputnik - It is based loosely on the Phoenix design, the overall outline was accurate until I stretched it a bit. I'm always open to suggestions on the model though!

Eagle - I hadn't intended to put a crane on it, but I could throw something into each bay that appears when you are landed so it appears you have a way to get the UCGO boxes in and out.

Looking at the mesh last night I realized that my RCS might cause unintended roll/translation when they are used. I might have to rework them.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think you should drop the cranes and use some sort of a modified fork-lift for this task... maybe a golf cart with an articulated robot is perfect as image.

If you would land on the moon with it, you would like to have some rigging at each cargo bay, that could be used for make-shift unloading/loading activities, but if you want efficiency, you won't install efficient stuff on the vehicle, but have it at the spaceport. Some tubes of aluminum and some rope would be more than enough for simple work, and not weight more than a few kilogram.

The Shuttle RMS is first of all, an EVA tool - if you plan EVAs, a robot arm is a perfect addition, since it really gives you a flexible work platform and tool. But I don't see this role for your SSTO, the shape would not really require its own robot arm, not even for EVA repairs. Maybe it would make sense to have power and grapple ports for robot arms on the hull, that could permit attaching a generic robot arm there, if I am wrong with my EVA repair prediction.

 

[mc_]

I think, it needs a single "crane", moving around to each payload bay on a circular rail or something.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think, it needs a single "crane", moving around to each payload bay on a circular rail or something.

Why a rail? If you need to unload without assistance, just install some rigging in the payload bay and use manual power... The boxes don't weight 20 tons.

 

[sputnik]

Okay, then. Pity; I'd like to see an accurate Phoenix, but of course beggars can't be choosers. And please don't take anything I say as real criticism; I fully support what you're doing and look forward to seeing the result. That said:

The nozzles look cool, but they realistically should not be visible because they should be flush with the heat shield. On Phoenix, they were a zero-length aerospike; protruding the nozzles out a bit would spoil the airflow for launch and, especially, re-entry.
Everything looks a bit...beefy. Landing gear and RCS jets in particular...I love the look of both, but they both look rugged and heavy. An SSTO needs to minimize dry weight...and, remember, landing gear and RCS are sized for the empty weight of the thing, not the full weight. So it looks like a balloon with tiny jets and tiny gear. It should.
The payload bay should be one large one, not several smaller ones. Yes, you're rolling your own, and they're sized for UCGO modules, but even in an imaginary future where UCGO modules are the global standard, I'd think the designer would still prefer the flexibility of being able to carry larger cargo instead, or a module.
The docking port also needs to be in this area, and probably an optional module. Running a personnel tube through a liquid hydrogen tank has its problems. Gary Hudson's original Osiris did have it done this way, but subsequent (Phoenix) designs changed it for a reason.
Finally, let me also suggest that an internal crane is not the best use of payload support mass, and kind of changes the flavor from "plausible-future-spaceship" to "science-fiction-a-la-Thunderbirds". Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I doubt it's your goal. Wherever an SSTO lands, there will be a scissor-lift to offload and onload cargo. Until and except, of course, the point where SSTO's refuel from a depot and start landing on the moon....

Again, love the design and look forward to seeing what you do with it.

 

[mc_]

a VTOVL DGIV?

...an internal crane is not the best use of payload support mass...
Wherever an SSTO lands, there will be a scissor-lift to offload and onload cargo. Until and except, of course, the point where SSTO's refuel from a depot and start landing on the moon....

If SSTO wil be refueled to 100% on LEO and then travel to Moon, there will be enough fuel to land at Brighton Beach and then return home without refueling again.

And, i think this wessel is not supposed to land only at prepared landing sites. It may be used as a suborbital transport at Moon, Mars, etc (UMMU scientists need to be transported to exploration sites somehow, and who knows, where they'll find something interesting ), space exploration (standalone or as a lander for a bigger ship), and so on.

Maybe, it is not a "true 100% total hardcore realistic vessel with real prototype", but it still can be a "VTOVL DGIV" :lol:, a demonstration (and PR :thumbup for a VTOVL SSTO in Orbiter.

Anyway, i'm already love it. :hail:

 

[CigDriver]

Okay, then. Pity; I'd like to see an accurate Phoenix, but of course beggars can't be choosers. And please don't take anything I say as real criticism; I fully support what you're doing and look forward to seeing the result. That said:

...clip...

Again, love the design and look forward to seeing what you do with it.

Thanks for the feedback. The design is a bit beefy, but that is intentional. I'm tired of being stuck in LEO with my HyperDart and wanted to build something to go to the moon with, so I wanted something that looked like it could land anywhere. Overall, I want something that seems realistic, but allows fun "game play".

I agree that one big cargo bay would be the best design, but I wanted it to look integrated with UCGO. The large bay was giving me fits with the UCGO boxes releasing into the other side of the bay so I turned it inside out. I also wanted any piece of cargo to be deployable at any time.

I'm not sure where the tanks are on this thing, looking at this picture(http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/p/phoenixc.jpg) it looks to me like you have the LH2 tank bottom center with the LOX tank wrapped around it! There doesn't apear to be anything in the nose cone, matching the cargo variant also in that picture. Overall I put the docking port on the nose to ease vessel to vessel docking for refueling once in LEO.

Based on the pic linked above and "Twenty-four individual bell nozzle rocket engines were chosen..." I thought this thing had retractable engines. I guess it is possible that they just fire down through the heat shield. From an aerodynamics standpoint I don't think the protruding engines would be any worse than the aft end of the Shuttle for the first stage of a Saturn V, but I'm no aerospace engineer

I built the RCS figuring it was the only control you'd have while flying through the thick atmosphere, but I guess you could always vector the engines or even apply differential throttle, with 24 you could get quite powerful but fine control that way. I'll probably rebuild them anyway since I'm sure they will induce roll/lateral movement when using some of them.

One thing this teaches for sure is just how smart rocket scientists have to be!

 

[Sky IsNoLimit]

Hi there, nice looking model. But like sputnik, I too would love to see a realistic Phoenix SSTO in Orbiter. There are many SciFi spacecraft available for orbiter already but a realistic VTOVL SSTO would really be something special.

About the tanks:

There were several versions of the Phoenix. The earlier designs had bi-propellant engines (kerosene and hydrogen) with individual bell nozzels. From the picture you have linked to I would say that the oxygen tank is above the hydrogen tank with a common bulkhead between. The kerosene tank is wrapped around these two tanks. The latest design of the Phoenix had a hydrogen/oxygen aerospike engine with variable mixture ratio for increased thrust at lift-off (and no kerosene any more). It also had a water cooled active heat shield.

For anyone who want more information on this topic I would suggest reading this article written by Gary Hudson, the designer of the Phoenix and founder of Pacific American Launch Systems:

'History of the Phoenix VTOL SSTO and Recent Developments in Single Stage Launch Systems'

http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/...lopments_in_single_stage_launch_systems.shtml

And good luck with your project ! :thumbup:

 

[sputnik]

*Slaps forehead*. For course the later Phoenixes had the LH2 tank on the bottom, the LO2 tank underneath that, and the nose is completely free for a docking port. Apologizes; what was I thinking?
DC-Y, probably.

The engines didn't retract; they were recessed so the end of the nozzle was flush with the heat shield. No doors; Gary Hudson was of the opinion that they would not be necessary; but of course, he could have been wrong, so provision for doors (sliding, I think) was available.

 

[Andy44]

I still want to see SERV someday. I especially like the fact that the entire base of the vehicle is one giant aerospike engine made up of many units. Could a Pheonix-type vehicle use this sort of engine?

 

[CigDriver]

Interesting read. It would be cool to see one of these someday. As for a realistic Phoenix, I just haven't seen enough detailed info on it.

 

[RisingFury]

I really like the Roton design:

Work started, but now it's just sitting in the desert as a monument to failure...

 

[mc_]

Nice thing, but where is the docking port?

Offtop: Товарищи! Не надо здесь именовать данную машину словом "Пепелац" - люди не поймут, а объяснять долго. Пофиг, что это он и есть...

 

[Sky Captain]

I really like the Roton design:



Work started, but now it's just sitting in the desert as a monument to failure...

What's that supposed to be? Why there are helicopter blades on top that thing?

 

[mc_]

You can read more here: http://astronautix.com/lvs/roton.htm

 

[River Crab]

I know, it's so sad!　They were like,
"Well, we just proved that helicopter blades on a spacecraft do not work. Aaand...we're just about out of money!"


That project looks awesome by the way! It'll fly someday! :thumbup: