Gaming thoughts about a 4x game set in the solar system

[jedidia]

A few months ago, I experimented with a tile- and turnbased abstraction of a gravity simulator and newtonian physics. The result was kinda cool, providing a framework that feels realistic enough (though 2d), calculates fast and is managable for an AI to navigate in due to heavy simplifications, less precision needed, indexed trajectories etc. (and that currently looks like "Orbiter: Roguelike" :lol.

I haven't touched it for a long time, but these days I was wondering what could actually be done with it. I have a game concept in mind that is hopelessly overambitious so I won't even think about it. As an alternative, I was thinking about a 4x game set in the solar system, because, well, there ain't anything like that yet (that I know of, except maybe Aurora 4x with pre-transnewtonian start and multiple factions on earth...).

There's a few conceptual problems I can see with that though and I seem to suffer a lack of smart Ideas how to tackle them.

Mainly, it's a setting problem. What I came up with is kind of a post-apocalyptic earth that went through global warming right into WW3. The game starts when the newly formed nations are struggling from the ashes, but find that the earth simply doesn't have the resources anymore to sustain their newly formed civilisations for long.
This would provide the necessary incentive to produce an all-out do or die space race. Not only to make the whole game make sense, but to drive the player into space through game mechanics.

It's a bit odd in 4x games that the only mechanical incentive you have to expand is that otherwise some aliens will come along after 200 turns and kick your butt. In a single-system 4x, where all factions start on the same planet, those dynamics are a bit different. Basically, there would be nothing stopping you from just gearing up your industry and research and carry the conflict out right there on earth without colonising the system first. The setting would provide a necessity for expansion due to limited resources that wouldn't allow you to build a large enough army. It would also allow some liberties to simplify earth overall, with a few mega-nations that magically formed after the appocalypse, and a good explanation why there are so few cities... :shifty:
Still, the setting seems extremely cheesy. I have the feeling that one could do better with a game background.

But even going from that, there would soon be another problem: The asteroid belt would provide pretty much al the resources one might need, and there's no real need for actual colonisation. There would be a bit of it on the moon and mars, but as soon as the player develops technology to mine the belt, any expansion further outward would become pointless. I am thinking about an Alien-Legacy like research system, where you don't just produce one type of research points in labs. Instead every research area has its own research points, and they must be gained through on-site research and application. i.e. active exploration.

Still, this will only lead to research outposts, and not to Shipyards on the galilean moons...
A case could be made that the conditions of earth are deteriorating and that you have to get people of, but a) that is silly because those conditions are still somewhat better than elsewhere, b) there certainly cannot be a problem with overpopulation because of the recent war and c) making powerful technology, allowing the mass exodus of thousands of people, available early in the game would kind of defy the purpose.

Now, all of this touches a bit on the well-known "why should we colonise the solar system at all" debate, but that's not what I am after. I'm more concerned with game mechanics, the setting can somehow be made to fit...

So, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[kamaz]

You already have a good mechanism, i.e. global warming.

Earth becomes less habitable (i.e. food and resource output drops) with each turn. After N turns, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis"]methane clathrates defreeze[/ame] and planet becomes uninhabitable within M turns ( M << N ). Bonus points if player's strategy (i.e. CO2 production = economic output) can affect warming rate.

This setting creates an interesting strategical problem. Should you ignore science and just launch the simplest missions as fast as possible? Or, should you first build up the ground (economy) potential, and then launch a smaller number of more powerful (heavy armed) ships? Or, should you ignore economy/defense, build up science, and launch highly advanced crafts -- i.e. go for Jupiter and beyond, when other players are fighting over who owns the Moon?

 

[Donamy]

How about an asteroid that came close to the Earth, didn't hit it, but ripped most of the atmosphere away ? Also moved the moon to an eliptical orbit.

 

[kamaz]

Also, your concept has some interesting potential w.r.t. to resource management and tech tree. After Earth becomes off-limits due to runaway warming, different planets require different approaches and techs:

For example:

- Mars is believed to have both ice and concentrated ores, so no special tech is needed to colonize it... and you can bet on several factions going there!

- Moon has metals, but has little to no volatiles. Venus has volatiles at the top of the atmosphere, but metals are unavailable (too hot down there). It follows that a player must hold both lunar and venussian assets to survive, unless they have WaterFromRegolith or MiningInHell tech.

- Mercury has both metals and volatiles (ice), but it is hard to get to... which would also make it easy to defend. SunShade tech highly recommended.

- Main belt asteroids hold a lot of metals, but no volatiles (water)... although it can be obtained from NEOs and non-periodic comets diving towards the Sun (high dV requirements though, needs AdvancedGasCoreNTR tech)

- Jupiter and beyond you have all the water you could ever want, but no metals -- either get them from main belt asteroids, or you must have FusionTransmutation tech to produce metals from lighter elements

 

[jedidia]

Earth becomes less habitable (i.e. food and resource output drops) with each turn. After N turns, methane clathrates defreeze methane clathrates defreeze and planet becomes uninhabitable within M turns ( M << N ). Bonus points if player's strategy (i.e. CO2 production = economic output) can affect warming rate.

That is a pretty nice Idea. Sets kind of a deadline that dicourages you from actually investing too much into earth based assets in the first place, because they'll go to waste... or might be reclaimed during re-colonisation during late-game. That sounds like a fun Idea. There's still the problem about the mass-exodus already requiring some serious technology I'd rather save for mid-game, though...

- Moon has metals, but has little to no volatiles. Venus has volatiles at the top of the atmosphere, but metals are unavailable (too hot down there). It follows that a player must hold both lunar and venussian assets to survive, unless they have WaterFromRegolith or MiningInHell tech.

I've thought about specific tech-trees for individual planets, but to have their properties be complimentary is a neat idea... The play-dynamics could get quite interesting. When two factions start down the same tech-tree to colonise the same planets, they can't afford to back off and go for another planet. They either have to learn to share or clobber each other over the head during the early game :thumbup:

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

How about an asteroid that came close to the Earth, didn't hit it, but ripped most of the atmosphere away ? Also moved the moon to an eliptical orbit.

Forgive me, but how the heck does it rip the Earths atmosphere away? Most asteroids have a relatively small cross section when compared with the entire volume of the Earths atmosphere!

 

[ex-orbinaut]

...I have a game concept in mind that is hopelessly overambitious so I won't even think about it.

Please do it. I like (or used to like, as I have not played any lately) these sort of games. I cannot remember the name, but there was a Microprose game along those lines, and another one "Deuteros", I used to play before. Great fun and a bit, uhm, nostalgic?

Even programmed something like it myself, quite a while back (1994) on Blitz BASIC. Called it "Spacex", before the Spacex we know now. :lol:

It's a bit odd in 4x games that the only mechanical incentive you have to expand is that otherwise some aliens will come along after 200 turns and kick your butt. In a single-system 4x, where all factions start on the same planet, those dynamics are a bit different. Basically, there would be nothing stopping you from just gearing up your industry and research and carry the conflict out right there on earth without colonising the system first. The setting would provide a necessity for expansion due to limited resources that wouldn't allow you to build a large enough army.

Just thinking; why would you have to be in direct control of the game elements? It might or might not be a good idea, or perhaps a different game mode of the same game, but how about indirect coercion of your game world? Your inhabitants have a fixated idea they have "evolved" in the wake of the hardships; they want to "just go somewhere else" as a result of their philosophy, that being described as you like in the realms of Sci-Fi. Your job becomes steering them in the right direction to make as few mistakes as possible in the attainment of their goal, through whatever cultural or psychological influence tools you care to give the player.

The point; I may seem to detect you wrestling somewhat with what makes a justifiable - perhaps politically correct - game concept for direct play, which is to some of us a creative barrier. This approach frees you a little from that constraint.

I don't know, probably reads like a borderline insanity rant on my part :lol:. It was just a thought.

 

[kamaz]

That is a pretty nice Idea. Sets kind of a deadline that dicourages you from actually investing too much into earth based assets in the first place, because they'll go to waste... or might be reclaimed during re-colonisation during late-game. That sounds like a fun Idea. There's still the problem about the mass-exodus already requiring some serious technology I'd rather save for mid-game, though...

No mass exodus. The masses will stay on Earth and boil... The point is that building a small colonization force requires a massive economy/industrial/population potential, which will be destroyed when the clathrate gun hits. I mean, if we have learned today that the clathrates will defreeze in 10 years, and the entire US or EU economy got redirected to building colony ships, the number of colonists we could launch to Mars before deadline would be... 100? 1K? 10K? 100K tops -- out of an economy which takes 300M people to run itself.

Let me explain that at in terms of a Civilization game. When the clathrate gun triggers, all factions have 10 turns left -- after which, all Earth-based assets are destroyed. At this point, all factions must start building Settlers units and sending them out to space. (I'd also introduce a limit of one launch per spaceport facility per turn.) However, building Settlers so fast requires pretty sizable cities -- in Civ, building Settlers in one turn means that the building city must be sized 10 or above. A Settlers unit, OTOH, is worth one population point.

So an example game could run through the following phases:

1. Buildup: all faction build up industry to start churning out Settlers before the clathrate gun triggers. Players engage in attacks aimed at destroying the competitors' potential.

2. Flowering: clathrates defreeze, everyone launches their Settlers as fast as possible. Last-minute nuking of competitor's spaceports.

3. Dark Ages: settlers reach their destinations and start building new civilizations. Techs may be lost at this stage. For example, Mars Directors will land via aerobraking and have no spaceflight capability until they re-develop it -- but they have a huge population bonus: hibernated colonists + inflatable habitats. The Moonies, on the other hand, keep their spacecrafts, but their population growth will be severely limited by slow construction of new habitats. Communication between factions breaks down; everyone minds their own problems. Spacecrafts (for those that still have them) are now too valuable to be sent on interplanetary trips. Hab failures, meteorite strikes, solar flares. First resources mined. First metal cast. First children born.

4. Late Middle Ages: The descendants of humanity have worked out all the main problems of living on alien worlds (or died trying). All remaining colonies are now growing steadily. Their cultures, languages and gene pools have now diverged. First attempts at interplanetary spaceflight. The travelling merchants bring news of strange peoples and strange worlds. Moonies realize that their stocks of water ice in polar craters are now running low; their representative visits floating cities of Venerans to discuss a "water-for-metal" deal. Due to cultural and language differences the negotiations run late, and the deal is only reached during a one-on-one meeting between the Moonie executive and Veneran queen in her bedroom.

5. Renaissance. A fleet of spacecrafts powered with solar sails enters an orbit around Venus. Messengers, unheard of since the Flowering, also want a cut of Venus' volatiles. A Veneran officer accidentally launches a missile; later historians will later argue whether it was an real accident or act of treason. Messengers bomb Veneran baloo-cities from orbit, destroying entire civilization in minutes. Other historians will point out that the genocide was planned for in advance and religiously motivated, and so, the missile incident has been blown out of proportion. Venerans who were in orbital facilities at the time of attack escape to Mars. Directorian scientists are thrilled; the newcomers bring with them the part of Earthly knowledge which was believed to be lost since the Flowering... and they arrive in a brand-new, spaceworthy, Moonie spacecraft. A cultural explosion follows, as Venerans bring both their own, and Earthly works of art. A leading Directorian philosopher of the time is recorded lamenting the newest fad of naming one's child Gandalf.

6. Pax Martiana. Combining plentiful local resources, pre-collapse science, Moonie space techs and Veneran ideology, the Directors assemble a huge interplanetary navy and beat all the remaining factions into submission. Interplanetary trade flourishes. Earth cools down, Moonies attempt recolonization. They are shocked when they encounter the Left-Behinders, who survived the catastrophic warming in the Antarctic.

7. The Crisis. A rogue group of Belters, irritated by usustainable plundering of the Belt's resources by the Directors, redirects an asteroid and drops it on Orcus Patera, the center of Directorian civilization...

As you see, you don't really need to introduce new/advanced techs until stage 4/5. In fact, doing so would be unrealistic: the colonists will have to survive using only techs they got from Earth, until they get the ability to do meaningful science by themselves -- but this requires an economical surplus, which does not appear until the Dark Ages era ends.

 

[jedidia]

Please do it. I like (or used to like, as I have not played any lately) these sort of games. I cannot remember the name, but there was a Microprose game along those lines, and another one "Deuteros", I used to play before. Great fun and a bit, uhm, nostalgic?

Slight misunderstanding. The concept would be an entirely different game, but one I'd have no chances of finishing (kind of a Starflight/X-Com crossover that only bears very loose resemblance to traditional 4x games). A more traditional 4x game is the alternative I'm contemplating. Still ambitious enough, but doable... in a decade or so :lol: Not that I'm anything like decided on the matter, and even if I started, finishing would be an entirely different matter. I'm merely thinking about the concept currently, something I can find a bit of time to do in between the kids nagging, as opposed to actual coding... :shifty:

and another one "Deuteros", I used to play before. Great fun and a bit, uhm, nostalgic?

It might interest you that there's a remake of "Millenium", Deuteros' predecessor.

Just thinking; why would you have to be in direct control of the game elements?

Partly direct control is neccessary for immersion in a game like this, really. I would definitely go for stronger private sector independance as seen in e.g. Distant Worlds to limit micromanaging and player control over ever detail of his "empire".

The point; I may seem to detect you wrestling somewhat with what makes a justifiable - perhaps politically correct - game concept for direct play,

Politically correct doesn't enter into it. Plausible would be nice, but first and foremost the mechanics have to make sense and offer enough possibilities for an interesting and varied game. I kinda like Kamaz' approach to it...

 

[Urwumpe]

Partly direct control is neccessary for immersion in a game like this, really. I would definitely go for stronger private sector independance as seen in e.g. Distant Worlds to limit micromanaging and player control over ever detail of his "empire".

Not sure there. I think, important is just giving the player a feeling, that his actions really have an effect on the gameworld. For example, by having in-game media reporting on events, that are related to the actions of the player.

Too direct control only causes micromanagement and bores the player, when his possibilities exceed his attention span.

 

[kamaz]

Not sure why you think this would take a decade -- this looks like a normal civ-style game with some twists. Original civ took one year to write IIRC. I think you could hack a playable prototype based on FreeCiv in a month...

Basically, you need a map with several large and separate islands. Islands have different resource bonuses mirroring characteristics of planets... Distance between the islands is proportional to dv between the planets.

All players start with pre-built cities on the Earth islands, which you then lock/turn to desert ...

 

[jedidia]

Ah no, that's not quite what I'm after... I need a real scale solar system, otherwise I wouldn't play the game myself

The time for writing it, of course, would depend heavily on the time I have available, which at this stage is practicaly nil... Just giving m head something to do with the concepts at the moment.

 

[Urwumpe]

Ah no, that's not quite what I'm after... I need a real scale solar system, otherwise I wouldn't play the game myself

The time for writing it, of course, would depend heavily on the time I have available, which at this stage is practicaly nil... Just giving m head something to do with the concepts at the moment.

Well, what about designing the game mechanics in components and then just extending some basic game engine?

 

[fsci123]

I'm joining this thread relatively late and I don't have time to read all of above comments so what I may say may be redundant...


I don't think you need to define a backstory or a reason for colonization. I think you could let the players and AI do that. Maybe have a scenario where planets become inhabited by corporate employees, religious outcasts, tourists, or self replicating robots.

It's possible that you could have a system set up where you could allocate government resources to specific mission tasks...like setting up a small colony, mapping a planet, developing sensors, etc...

Another thing that would be cool would be insurrection, secession, civil war, regime change scenarios. So there wouldn't be immortal nations as in most games.
Also there should be a distinction between private and public activities... Let cities build themselves, let corporations and private institutions engage in exploration, let government revenue be directly effected by the state of their nation's economy.


Personally, I would like to see a scenario where maybe a nation simultaneously funds the development of sensors and planet mapping. Only to discover that the planet next door has alien god tech ruins. Suddenly a frenzy occurs, nations scramble to retrieve the ruins... While the homeworld's geopolitical/socioeconomic state collapses due to the sudden introduction of a post scarcity economy and immortality. All of a sudden the colonies declare themselves independent and your nation is left in a state of chaos.

FYI you should check out a game called star ruler. It was about space colonization and stuff.

 

[jedidia]

Well, what about designing the game mechanics in components

That is pretty much a given, really. I only do design in components...

and then just extending some basic game engine?

Any suggestions on something appropriate?

 

[Urwumpe]

Any suggestions on something appropriate?

Well, Orbiter is there, but not really optimal.

I think something like Irrlicht would be better suited, but that only does graphics and input.

 

[jedidia]

I think something like Irrlicht would be better suited, but that only does graphics and input.

I'm doing everything in Irrlicht, even if it's a demo using only ASCII characters for graphics :lol:

 

[kamaz]

Ah no, that's not quite what I'm after... I need a real scale solar system, otherwise I wouldn't play the game myself

The main problem is that the solar system is mainly empty space. If I have some assets on Moon, some assets on Venus, and some assets in Mars orbit, then scrolling through empty space back and forth is the least effective use of my time.

Besides, have you ever played CivII / Freeciv? By mid-game, the game is played more on various popup windows (city, stats, tech) then on map. At this stage, the map is only relevant if you have an ongoing military engagement.

Also, for a space based strategy, neither 2D or 3D map is a really fitting interface. A space strategy does not really operate in (x,y,z) space, but rather in (dv, flight_time) space. It does not matter where the asset is, what matters is how fast the asset can come here, and does it have enough dv to do so.

Food for thought.

 

[jedidia]

To ilustrate: Here's a screenshot of what I mentioned in the initial post, the thing that looks like "Orbiter:Roguelike", that gave me the idea in the first place

As I said, it's a tile-based abstraction of a gravity simulator. AI should be able to handle it fairly well.

 

[Urwumpe]

What kind of motion system do you plan to use?